OutboundSync Blog

Default field mapping 2.0 is live

Mon, 20 Apr 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now supports mapping more default fields from Smartlead, EmailBison, and HeyReach into HubSpot and Salesforce. That means data you've already imported into your sales engagement platform gets pushed to your CRM the moment we receive it — reducing your reliance on other tools to enrich leads and contacts after they're synced. ## What's new by Sales Engagement Platform ### Smartlead - Added support for contact and lead names - Expanded company field mapping - Added phone field support - Added website and domain backfills - Added LinkedIn profile backfill ### EmailBison - Added support for contact and lead names - Expanded company field mapping - Added job title support ### HeyReach - Added support for contact and lead names - Added job title support ## Where this applies in your CRM ### HubSpot - Contact names - Company names and company object fields - Phone fields - Websites and company domains - LinkedIn profiles - Job titles ### Salesforce - Contact names - Lead names - Company-related fields - Phone fields - Job titles ## Available right now This is live for every OutboundSync customer — no setup required. Matching still uses email as the unique identifier on Contact and Lead, domain on Company and Account, and existing values are never overwritten. For the full per-platform breakdown, see the docs: - Which HubSpot properties are updated - Which Salesforce fields are updated Questions? Just reply to the email or get a demo with the OutboundSync team.

GetSales integration now available

Thu, 16 Apr 2026 12:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now supports GetSales campaigns for HubSpot and Salesforce. OutboundSync now supports: - Receiving and processing all major GetSales webhook events - Mapping GetSales email and social activity data into standard HubSpot and Salesforce fields - Automatically updating contact and account records in real time as events occur in GetSales GetSales also has powerful no-code workflow builders, lead management tools, and native waterfall and data enrichment options that allow you to do everything in one place. This means you can now keep your HubSpot and Salesforce records automatically in sync with activity from GetSales without manual exports or extra work. This is a direct integration built by the OutboundSync team, with beta access live now in your account. ## Available now Add GetSales connection

Q1 2026 outbound trends: Email still leads while multichannel adoption climbs

Tue, 14 Apr 2026 00:00:00 GMT

Email still anchors the modern outbound stack, but the data now shows a clear shift: teams are increasingly adding multichannel tools on top of that foundation. Looking at OutboundSync customer integration data through March 31, 2026, the pattern is not one of rotation away from email. It is expansion. Multichannel adoption is real and growing, but email remains the base layer that most teams still build around. This analysis is based on OutboundSync customer integrations connecting sales engagement platforms to HubSpot and Salesforce, covering October 2023 through March 31, 2026. ## What the data shows Three figures stand out from the Q1 2026 dataset: - 23% chose multichannel since multichannel integrations became available - +36% growth in email-only integrations since multichannel launched - 27% of new integrations were multichannel in March 2026, up from 24% at launch Taken together, those numbers point to an additive market. Teams are not abandoning email. They are extending outbound programs with additional channels where it makes sense. ## Three takeaways from the data ### 1. Multichannel demand appeared immediately When the first non-email integration arrived, multichannel adoption showed up right away. At launch, roughly 24% of new integrations chose the new multichannel option. That matters because it suggests teams did not need to be convinced that additional channels were useful. The demand was already there. In practical terms, the market signal looks more like delayed availability than slow education. Once the option existed inside the stack, a meaningful share of customers took it. ### 2. Email is still the operating system for outbound The more important result may be what did not happen: email-only demand did not fall after multichannel became available. According to the source analysis, email-only integrations are up 36% since multichannel launched. That supports a simple interpretation: for most teams, email remains the system that everything else wraps around. Social, inbox, and other mixed-channel workflows are being added to the motion, not replacing it. That has implications for operators. If email is still the primary layer, then deliverability, mailbox strategy, CRM logging, attribution, and suppression logic still need to be designed around email first, even as the broader engagement mix expands. ### 3. The category is starting to diversify The first wave of multichannel adoption was heavily associated with social-led tooling. By early 2026, the dataset starts to show a broader mix of tools entering the picture. It is still early, and this is not a market-wide census. But the pattern is worth watching. Once a category moves beyond a single breakout product and begins to fragment into more specialized tools, the operational burden on GTM and RevOps teams tends to increase. Data models get messier. Reporting gets harder. CRM visibility matters more. ## What this means for GTM and RevOps leaders If you run outbound infrastructure, the takeaway is not just that more channels are showing up. It is that the stack is getting more layered. - Plan for email to remain the anchor channel, even if your team expands into social or inbox workflows. - Treat multichannel adoption as a reporting problem as much as a prospecting problem. If activity lands in different tools, your CRM and attribution model need to reconcile that. - Expect integration quality to matter more as category diversity increases. More tools usually means more edge cases around identity, suppression, ownership, and handoff. - Build the operating model before the stack sprawls too far. It is easier to add channels when lifecycle, routing, and measurement rules already exist. The companies that benefit most from multichannel outbound will likely be the ones that make the stack legible inside the CRM, not just the ones that add more sending surfaces. ## Methodology and caveats This is OutboundSync customer-base data, not a market-wide census of all outbound teams or all sales engagement platforms. Each record represents a customer connecting a sales engagement platform to HubSpot or Salesforce through OutboundSync. That means the data is useful for observing product adoption patterns within our customer base, but it should not be treated as a complete picture of the broader market. Two additional caveats matter here: - The reporting cutoff for this post is March 31, 2026. Any April 2026 or May 2026 channel launches are outside the scope of the core analysis. - The source export used for the monthly chart begins in January 2024, even though the broader reporting window starts in October 2023. Within those bounds, the directional signal is still clear: multichannel adoption is rising, and email continues to hold the center of gravity. ## Frequently Asked Questions ### What data is this analysis based on? This post is based on OutboundSync customer integration data covering October 2023 through March 31, 2026. Each record represents a customer connecting a sales engagement platform to HubSpot or Salesforce through OutboundSync. It reflects OutboundSync's customer base, not the entire outbound software market. ### Does multichannel growth mean email is declining? No. In this dataset, email-only integrations did not decline after multichannel options became available. The source analysis found that email-only integrations were up 36% after multichannel launched, which suggests teams are layering additional channels onto email rather than replacing email outright. ### What counts as multichannel in this report? For this analysis, multichannel refers to supported outbound tools available through March 31, 2026 that add channels or workflows beyond email, including the early social-led wave and other mixed-channel platforms in the reporting window. Later April and May 2026 launches are outside the scope of the core analysis.

New integration: Drippi

Thu, 09 Apr 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now supports Drippi for X (Twitter) campaigns: - Receiving near-realtime webhooks from Drippi for key events related to your Drippi campaigns on X (Twitter). - Syncing campaign details, messages, timestamps, and profile information to custom contact properties/fields for context and for custom reports and dashboards. - Logging timeline/app events to trigger native CRM workflows. This means your teams can run X outreach campaigns in Drippi and have every relevant touchpoint automatically appear in HubSpot and Salesforce — no manual entry or extra setup required. This is live now in your account. Create a webhook in OutboundSync, add Drippi, and start seeing data appear in your CRM. ## Get started Want to see how the Drippi integration works in your setup? Book a demo to get a walkthrough.

Salesforge integration now available

Thu, 02 Apr 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now supports a one-way sync of outbound activities from Salesforge into HubSpot and Salesforce CRM. OutboundSync now supports: - Receiving webhooks from Salesforge for email and social activities - Syncing key events including email sent, email opened, link clicked, email bounced, email replied, contact unsubscribed, positive reply, negative reply, and social replied - Updating CRM records with campaign IDs, names, timestamps, message details, and activity data This means your Salesforge activity data automatically flows into your CRM contacts and companies with no manual work or API calls. This is a direct integration built by the OutboundSync team, with beta access live right now. ## Available now If you want to see how the Salesforge integration works in your setup, book a demo or learn more on the Salesforge integration page.

New webhook receiver dataflow UI

Thu, 26 Mar 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now lets you create and edit webhooks in a visual flow that shows exactly how events from your sales tool become HubSpot or Salesforce records. This is live right now in your account. OutboundSync now supports: - Visualizing the data path from sales engagement platform events through the OutboundSync receiver to CRM objects and actions - Configuring everything in one unified sliding settings tray for profiles, events, properties, tasks, and more - Previewing sample payloads for your specific platform and event type This means you can clearly see how data moves from your sales tool to your CRM, set up everything in one focused interface instead of scattered forms or modals, and verify payloads directly without external docs. ## Available now For OutboundSync users, this is live in your account right now. Head to the new Webhook receiver section in your navigation to create or edit a webhook receiver. You can review your webhook receivers in the app anytime. If you'd like to see the entire platform in action, book a demo today.

OutboundSync Named Rising HubSpot Technology Partner

Fri, 20 Mar 2026 12:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync has been named a Rising partner in HubSpot's Technology Partner Program. This is a meaningful milestone for our company and I want to share what it means. ## What is the Technology Partner Program? HubSpot's Technology Partner Program is for companies that build integrations with HubSpot. It's distinct from their Solutions Partner Program (which is for agencies and consultants). Technology partners build software that connects to HubSpot's platform, extending what's possible for HubSpot users. OutboundSync falls squarely into this category. We build a deep, native integration between outbound sales tools like Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, and HeyReach and your HubSpot CRM. The OutboundSync + HubSpot integration syncs outbound activity, attributes revenue, manages blocklists, and powers workflows that connect your outbound motion to the rest of your go-to-market stack. ## What does "Rising" mean? HubSpot's Technology Partner Program has tiers that reflect a partner's level of engagement, adoption, and quality within the ecosystem. Rising is the first tiered designation, meaning HubSpot has recognized that OutboundSync meets their standards for a quality integration that's gaining traction with customers. Getting here required building a robust integration, maintaining high app quality standards, and earning adoption from real HubSpot users. It's not something you can buy or shortcut. ## Our journey in the HubSpot ecosystem We started as a Solutions Partner. I was running a consulting company doing fractional sales and revenue operations work, and kept encountering HubSpot. Eventually we joined the partner program and started doing implementations alongside outbound email services. Over time, customers kept asking for a productized version of the outbound-to-CRM sync we were building manually. That's how OutboundSync was born, and we transitioned from a services business to a software company. We launched in the HubSpot App Marketplace in August 2024 at INBOUND, and we've been building deeper into the platform ever since. If you're curious about the full story, I talked about it in detail on the Built on HubSpot podcast. ## What this means for customers For OutboundSync users on HubSpot, this is validation that we're committed to this ecosystem for the long term. We're not spreading ourselves thin across dozens of CRMs. We go deep with the platforms we support, and HubSpot is where we started and where the majority of our customers are. Practically, this means continued investment in: - Deeper HubSpot integration features — like App Timeline Events, custom properties, and workflow triggers that let you build sophisticated outbound automation inside HubSpot - Quality and reliability — maintaining the standards that earned us this designation - Supporting the HubSpot ecosystem — working with HubSpot partners and agencies who need outbound infrastructure for their clients ## Get started If you're running outbound and want it connected to HubSpot the right way, we'd love to help. Find OutboundSync in the HubSpot Marketplace or contact us to learn more.

Company matching now handles subdomains

Thu, 19 Mar 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now intelligently matches contacts with subdomain (also known as second-level domains) email domains (e.g. us.example.com) to the correct company in HubSpot by also considering the root domain (e.g. example.com). This is live right now in your account. OutboundSync now supports: * Searching HubSpot companies by both the subdomain and root domain * Preferring subdomain-specific companies when multiple matches are found * Using root domain as a fallback to improve matching accuracy This means contacts from subdomain emails will correctly link to their parent company records more reliably, reducing duplicate companies and improving your overall data quality in HubSpot.

Rich text field support for Salesforce block lists

Thu, 12 Mar 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now supports scanning rich text fields in Salesforce to update your block lists. This is live right now in your account and has been retroactively applied to any past data that was previously not supported. OutboundSync now supports: - Scanning rich text fields in Salesforce - Automatically extracting email addresses, domains, and LinkedIn profiles embedded in that rich text - Pushing the extracted data directly to your block lists in Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, and HeyReach This means you can have user-friendly fields in Salesforce that are fully compatible with data syncing, and no extra effort for your System Administrator. Next steps: See your current block lists if you want to update them to include new fields. Or see how to create block lists in our Docs. ## Frequently asked questions What Salesforce fields can I use for block lists? OutboundSync now supports rich text fields in addition to standard email and website fields. We scan rich text and automatically extract email addresses, domains, and LinkedIn profiles to add to your block lists. Which sales engagement platforms support block lists from OutboundSync? Block list data from OutboundSync is pushed to Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, and HeyReach. Create or update a block list in the OutboundSync app and select the API key for the platform you use.

Using HubSpot AI Connectors with OutboundSync

Thu, 05 Mar 2026 12:00:00 GMT

We've added new help articles on connecting HubSpot to ChatGPT and Claude, plus using OutboundSync data in AI prompts for outbound insights. You can pull actionable insights directly from your unified CRM data using AI—without relying on pre-built dashboards—and quickly optimize campaigns based on performance metrics. OutboundSync now supports: - Connecting HubSpot to ChatGPT for AI access to CRM data - Connecting HubSpot to Claude for AI access to CRM data - Example prompts to analyze OutboundSync data in HubSpot: best and worst campaigns, reply times, and common message traits For example, you can attach a file of OutboundSync properties and ask your AI to generate reports based on your prompts—then use the same data for ongoing analysis once your connector is set up. These articles are available now in our Docs: - Connecting HubSpot to ChatGPT - Connecting HubSpot to Claude - Prompts for HubSpot connectors Check them out to get started, or reply with any questions. ## Transcript [0:00] Hey folks, happy Friday. I'm excited to announce that we've got three new things in OutboundSync's knowledge base that just show where we're going in terms of our AI roadmap. [0:11] Now everything I'm showing you right now, we've actually had users doing these things for quite a while, but things have stabilized enough that we've got some great documentation around it, and there's a lot happening that I'll talk about at the end of this video. [0:22] But this is for HubSpot. HubSpot has released connectors for ChatGPT and Claude. And these have been out for some time, so we've got links to very stable, easy to use documentation on how to get them connected. [0:36] There's this Claude chat, and then, you know, ChatGPT's just kind of regular chat interface, not, um, you know, the Codex IDE tool. [0:44] So you can basically get your AI tool connected to your CRM. And then the question is, like, what do you do about it? ### Why HubSpot as system of record [0:51] Like, why? Who cares? The reason why this is so important, the reason why OutboundSync has come into be, like, why it exists at all, is that HubSpot is a system of record. [1:04] And so it is the single place that meetings and deals and outcomes and data from all these disparate sources, like product analytics and website traffic. [1:12] And advertising come into one place. And so in-platform analytics that you'd get from a sequencer, like an Instantly, or a Smartlead or an EmailBison, or a HeyReach, it's very useful to understand outbound performance. [1:29] Specifically to see how outbound itself is running. But to look at revenue, conversion, like, company, business metrics, you need to get that full system in place, in one place. ### Example prompts and outputs [1:40] So we've got a really good article that includes a bunch of prompts for HubSpot connectors that are using OutboundSync data once it gets pushed in to HubSpot. [1:50] Um, so we've got examples of questions here. I'll just show you, um, some specific outputs that we generated because these are, I think are pretty cool. [1:57] Best performing campaign. Worst performing campaign. Here you can see it's ranking them, and it's including some insight about how many replies and the notes and things like that. [2:06] Uh, fastest reply times. Uh, and then which messages are driving those reply times? Another one I thought that was super cool here was what do messages have in common? [2:17] In terms of key traits, what's being mentioned inside of these messages, evidence being used, and the impact in terms of performance. [2:23] You know, OutboundSync is pushing, literally hundreds of different properties in HubSpot across timeline events and custom contact properties, and associating up to company, uh, the company object as well. ### Post-dashboard era and optimization [2:35] So because of that, we've got fingerprints in a lot of places, and so, you know, historically the answer was build a dashboard. [2:41] It's pre-built for you, it has the answers for you. Uh, and this is like the post-dashboard era, where ChatGPT or Claude can go in there and just get the insights. [2:51] Pull them out. Provide them to you. And then if you connect via MCP to some of the other tools, you can immediately implement changes to your campaigns. [3:00] For example, you can look at the high open rate and low reply rate gap, or you can look at the reply to meeting conversion. [3:07] And then you can immediately make changes in your campaigns. Pause the low performers. Accelerate the high performers. Maybe just optimization for something that's kind of in the middle, right? [3:17] You go back to the copy, you change the copy. You can also look at like longer term responder commonalities. So for people who reply within 48 hours, you know, what do they look like? [3:28] Uh, what industries? Uh, job titles, seniority, company size, all those things. And if you're enriching, and if you have fully enriched records in HubSpot, you can, you can figure out even more, right? [3:36] Right. But it's not a requirement because these tools are also connected to the web so they can do real time enrichment as needed based on campaign results and performance. ### Where we're going [3:45] So, we're super excited about what this represents, uh, today. I think this is like a very accessible use of AI for many go-to-market teams that are using this tech stack. [3:56] Um, where we think things are going is, you know, a sp- especially with the emergence of cron jobs within, uh, some of these desktop apps that people are starting to use now. [4:07] Um, repeating these queries and then consolidating those learnings, applying those learnings over time. We're seeing some really interesting use cases for OpenClaw, specifically for outbound. [4:18] Uh, and again, that's like a case where you can run this cron job, you can run this repeat prompt and then trigger action based. [4:24] We'll see you in on that prompt that's being run. Um, and then we're also, of course, ourselves as a data destination. [4:31] We're looking at our own API, MCP server and webhook features that we're developing, um, to make this data available to agents quickly and easily too. [4:40] So we're super excited about what's going on and how outbound is changing. Um, this is something where we're seeing teams and agency partners. [4:48] Already. You find really good results with what we're sharing here in these articles. Uh, and then there's, you know, some moonshot kind of wild stuff that we're working on too. [4:56] So that's what's new here lately. I hope you're doing well and I hope you have a great day. Thanks.

How does outbound email sync to Salesforce work?

Mon, 02 Mar 2026 00:00:00 GMT

When outbound email syncs to Salesforce, campaign activity from your sequencing tool—Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, or HeyReach—is automatically written into Salesforce as native CRM records. Emails sent, replies received, bounces, and unsubscribes appear on the Lead or Contact record and can trigger Salesforce Flows, without manual data entry or BCC workarounds. Here's exactly how the process works, which Salesforce objects are created, and what you need to configure it. ## The sync mechanism: webhooks and the Salesforce API Outbound sequencing tools publish events in real time via webhooks—HTTP requests sent when something happens in a campaign. A tool like OutboundSync receives those webhook payloads, maps the data to Salesforce's data model, and writes it via the Salesforce REST API. The result is that Salesforce stays updated as your sequences run, typically within seconds of each event. ## Step by step: what happens when an outbound email is sent 1. Sequencer sends the email. Smartlead, Instantly, or another tool sends the email from your configured mailbox. 2. Webhook fires. The sequencer sends a webhook payload containing the event type, contact email, campaign name, mailbox used, timestamp, and optionally the email subject and body. 3. Record lookup in Salesforce. OutboundSync searches Salesforce for a matching Lead or Contact by email address. The search order and fallback behavior (create new Lead, create new Contact, or skip) are configurable. 4. Salesforce objects are written. The integration creates or updates: - An EmailMessage record (Enhanced Email) linked to the Lead or Contact - A Task record for activity logging and handoff queues - Field updates on the Lead or Contact record (last activity date, campaign name, reply status, custom fields) 5. Account association. If the Contact is linked to an Account, the EmailMessage is also associated with the Account record, making the activity visible from the account view. 6. Suppression check (bidirectional sync). If configured, OutboundSync reads Salesforce reports or lists (customers, competitors, opted-out prospects) and pushes them back to the sequencer as exclusion lists, blocking future sends. ## What data lands in Salesforce ### EmailMessage records (Enhanced Email) EmailMessage is Salesforce's structured email storage format. Each sent email, reply, and bounce is stored as an EmailMessage record with fields for subject, body, sender, recipient, timestamp, and direction (inbound vs. outbound). EmailMessage records are linked to the Contact or Lead and surface in the Activity Timeline on that record. Enhanced Email also supports: - Deduplication (prevents the same email being logged twice if multiple sync paths are active) - Compatibility with Einstein Activity Capture and Salesforce Inbox - Relationship to the Account via the Contact association ### Task records Task records provide a lightweight activity log entry that feeds into Salesforce activity queues and reports. Many orgs create a Task alongside each EmailMessage for backward compatibility with existing reports and dashboards built around the Task object. Tasks can also trigger assignment rules, escalation rules, and Salesforce Flows. ### Lead and Contact field updates The sync updates standard and custom fields on Lead and Contact records: last activity date, lead status, campaign name, sequence name, reply classification (interested, not interested, unsubscribed), and any custom fields mapped in the integration settings. ### New Lead, Contact, and Account records If a prospect doesn't exist in Salesforce yet, the integration can create a new Lead or Contact. If creating a Contact, OutboundSync can also look up an existing Account by email domain and associate the new Contact automatically. This keeps Salesforce complete without requiring pre-import before each campaign. ## Leads vs. Contacts: which object should outbound sync to? Salesforce has two person objects that outbound teams interact with differently: | Object | Typical use | When to use | |--------|------------|-------------| | Lead | Cold prospect, not yet qualified | Most outbound campaigns targeting net-new prospects | | Contact | Person associated with an Account | Existing accounts, warm outbound, post-conversion follow-up | Most teams sync cold outbound prospects as Leads. Once a Lead is qualified and converted, Salesforce creates a Contact, Account, and optionally an Opportunity. Some teams—particularly those with simple data models or ABM-focused processes—skip the Lead object entirely and create Contacts directly. OutboundSync supports syncing to either object, with configurable lookup order (check Contacts first, then Leads, or vice versa). ## Triggering Salesforce Flows from outbound events Unlike HubSpot, Salesforce doesn't have a native "timeline event" object for third-party app events. Instead, outbound sync drives Salesforce automation through field updates on Lead and Contact records. When OutboundSync updates a field—such as setting Last_Outbound_Email_Date__c to today, or changing Lead_Status to "Replied"—Salesforce Flows can use those field changes as entry conditions. This enables automation like: - Alert an AE when a Lead's status changes to "Interested" - Create an Opportunity when a Lead replies and books a meeting - Add a Contact to a Salesforce campaign when they receive an outbound email - Change a Lead owner when the prospect requests to be contacted by a senior rep - Trigger a follow-up Task when a lead bounces The key is mapping the right outbound events to the right Salesforce fields during integration setup, so Flows have clean data to act on. ## Contact matching and duplicate prevention The default matching method is email address. OutboundSync queries Salesforce for a Lead or Contact with the incoming email. If found, it updates the existing record. If not found, it creates a new one (or skips, depending on configuration). To reduce duplicates: - Update-only mode: only updates existing records, never creates new ones - Custom field lookup: match on an external ID or Salesforce record ID if you've pre-loaded records before launching campaigns - Lookup order: check Contacts first, then Leads—or configure a specific object preference - Account matching: match new Contacts to an existing Account by email domain ## What you need to set up the sync 1. A Salesforce org (Professional, Enterprise, or Unlimited edition; some features like custom objects require specific editions) 2. An outbound sequencing tool — Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, or HeyReach 3. An OutboundSync account — OutboundSync handles the webhook-to-Salesforce mapping, record matching, and object creation 4. Salesforce Connected App credentials — set up during OutboundSync onboarding via OAuth; no custom development required Most teams have their first campaigns syncing within a day of setup. ## Frequently Asked Questions ### How does outbound email sync to Salesforce work? Outbound email sync to Salesforce works by connecting your sequencing tool (Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison) to Salesforce via webhook or API. When a campaign event fires—email sent, reply received, bounce, unsubscribe—the integration writes it to Salesforce as an EmailMessage record, Task, or field update on a Contact or Lead, typically within seconds. ### What Salesforce objects does outbound sync create? A full outbound sync creates EmailMessage records (Enhanced Email) for sent and received emails, Task records for activity logging and handoffs, field updates on Contact or Lead records (last activity date, campaign status, custom fields), and optionally new Contact, Lead, or Account records when a prospect isn't already in Salesforce. ### Should outbound contacts sync to Salesforce Leads or Contacts? Most outbound teams sync cold prospects as Leads, since they haven't yet been qualified. Once a Lead is converted through the sales process, Salesforce creates a Contact and Account. Some teams skip the Lead object entirely and create Contacts directly if their process doesn't use the Lead-to-Contact conversion workflow. ### Can Salesforce Flows trigger based on outbound email events? Yes. When outbound sync updates a field on a Lead or Contact record—such as last outbound email date, reply status, or a custom campaign field—Salesforce Flows can use those field changes as entry criteria. This allows automation like alerting an AE when a prospect replies, or changing a Lead status when they book a meeting. ### What is the difference between EmailMessage and Task records in Salesforce for outbound email? EmailMessage (Enhanced Email) stores the full email content as a structured record linked to the Contact, Lead, or Account. Task records are simpler activity log entries used for queues and handoffs. Modern Salesforce orgs prefer EmailMessage for outbound sync because it supports better reporting, deduplication, and Inbox/Einstein Activity Capture compatibility.

New channel: Shared inbox tools

Thu, 26 Feb 2026 12:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now integrates with HotHawk and MasterInbox to sync inbox data to HubSpot and Salesforce. Beta access is live right now in your account. OutboundSync now supports: - Integrating with HotHawk's shared inbox platform - Integrating with MasterInbox's shared inbox platform - With each, you can sync replies, labels, and more into either HubSpot or Salesforce - They play nicely with the sequencers you already know and love, like Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, and HeyReach With beta access to Shared Inboxes as a new channel, you can connect your unified inboxes across outbound tools and pipe all reply and lead data directly into your CRM. ## HotHawk ## MasterInbox ## We're building for you This expands OutboundSync's number of supported channels once again. After starting with email, we've added social, phones, and now shared inboxes. We want you to choose the best tools for your GTM machine. Our job is to get your data deeply synced into your CRM for workflows, reports, AI/agentic tasks, and more. Get started with Shared Inboxes today by creating a new webhook receiver in the app.

How does outbound email sync to HubSpot work?

Mon, 23 Feb 2026 00:00:00 GMT

When outbound email syncs to HubSpot, it means campaign activity from your sequencing tool—Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, or HeyReach—is automatically written into HubSpot as native CRM records. Every email sent, reply received, bounce, and unsubscribe appears on the contact timeline and can trigger HubSpot workflows, without any manual copy-paste or BCC workarounds. Here's exactly how the process works, what lands in HubSpot, and what you need to configure it. ## The sync mechanism: webhooks and APIs Outbound sequencing tools publish events in real time via webhooks—HTTP requests sent to a destination URL when something happens in a campaign. A tool like OutboundSync receives those webhook events, maps the data to HubSpot's data model, and writes it to HubSpot via the HubSpot API. The result is that HubSpot stays updated as your sequences run, typically within seconds of each event. ## Step by step: what happens when an outbound email is sent 1. Sequencer sends the email. Smartlead, Instantly, or another tool sends the email from your configured mailbox. 2. Webhook fires. The sequencer sends a webhook payload to OutboundSync containing the event type, contact email, campaign name, mailbox used, timestamp, and optionally the email subject and body. 3. Contact lookup in HubSpot. OutboundSync looks up the contact in HubSpot by email address. If found, it proceeds to update the record. If not found, it can create a new contact (depending on your settings). 4. CRM objects are written. The integration creates or updates: - An email engagement on the contact's activity timeline - A custom App Timeline Event (accessible to HubSpot workflows and lists) - Contact property updates (last contacted date, outbound sequence name, campaign status) 5. Suppression check (bidirectional sync). If you've configured suppression, OutboundSync periodically reads HubSpot lists (customers, opted-out contacts, competitors) and pushes them back to the sequencer as exclusion lists, preventing future sends to those contacts. ## What data lands in HubSpot ### Contact timeline engagements Each outbound email sent, reply received, bounce, and unsubscribe is logged as an engagement on the contact record. Sales reps opening a HubSpot contact see the full outbound history alongside inbound marketing emails, calls, and meetings. ### App Timeline Events HubSpot App Timeline Events are a special type of record created by certified app partners. They appear in the contact timeline with custom formatting and—critically—can be used as enrollment triggers and filters in HubSpot workflows and active lists. This is what allows HubSpot automation to react to outbound events. For example, you can: - Enroll a contact in a HubSpot sequence when they reply to a cold email - Add a contact to a list of "engaged outbound prospects" when they click a link - Alert an AE when a contact books a meeting from an outbound campaign - Change lifecycle stage to SQL when a reply is classified as "Interested" ### Contact property updates The sync can update standard and custom HubSpot contact properties: last contacted date, lifecycle stage, lead status, outbound campaign name, sequence step, and any custom properties you've mapped in the integration settings. ### New contacts and companies If a prospect doesn't exist in HubSpot yet, the integration can create a new contact and associate them with a company record. This keeps HubSpot complete without requiring manual imports after each campaign. ## Contact matching and duplicate prevention The default matching method is email address. When a webhook arrives, OutboundSync checks HubSpot for a contact with that email. If found, it updates the existing record. If not found, it creates a new one (or skips, depending on your configuration). To reduce duplicates, the integration supports: - Update-only mode: only updates existing contacts, never creates new ones - Custom property lookup: match on HubSpot Object ID or another unique identifier if you've pre-loaded contacts into HubSpot before launching the campaign - Company association: automatically associate new contacts with an existing company record based on email domain ## What you need to set up the sync 1. A HubSpot account (any paid tier; some App Timeline Event features require a Professional or Enterprise seat) 2. An outbound sequencing tool — Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, or HeyReach 3. An OutboundSync account — OutboundSync handles the webhook-to-HubSpot mapping, contact matching, and object creation 4. HubSpot API credentials — provided during the OutboundSync onboarding flow; OutboundSync uses HubSpot's OAuth app authorization Most teams have their first campaigns syncing within a day of setup, without any engineering work. ## Frequently Asked Questions ### How does outbound email sync to HubSpot work? Outbound email sync to HubSpot works by connecting your sequencing tool (Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison) to HubSpot via webhook or API. When a campaign event fires—email sent, reply received, bounce, unsubscribe—the integration writes it to HubSpot as a contact engagement, timeline event, or property update, usually within seconds. ### What HubSpot objects does outbound sync create? A full outbound sync creates email engagements on the contact timeline, custom App Timeline Events visible to workflows and lists, contact property updates (lifecycle stage, lead status, last contacted date), and optionally new contact and company records when a prospect isn't already in HubSpot. ### How are outbound contacts matched to HubSpot records? Contacts are typically matched by email address. If a match is found, the sync updates the existing record. If no match is found, the integration can either create a new contact or skip the record depending on your configuration. Some integrations also support matching on custom properties like a HubSpot Object ID. ### Can HubSpot workflows trigger based on outbound email events? Yes. When your integration writes App Timeline Events to HubSpot, those events become available as enrollment triggers and filters in HubSpot workflows. For example, you can enroll a contact in a nurture sequence when they reply to a cold email, or alert an AE when a prospect opens an email for the third time. ### What is the difference between HubSpot's BCC logging and a native outbound sync? HubSpot's BCC address logs email content but doesn't capture replies automatically (unless the mailbox is connected), doesn't fire timeline events, and can't sync back suppressions. A native integration via OutboundSync writes structured timeline events, updates contact properties, and reads HubSpot lists to block sending to existing contacts.

Expanded account mapping options

Thu, 19 Feb 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now allows you to select custom fields for searching Accounts by domain in Salesforce for Smartlead, Instantly, and EmailBison. OutboundSync now supports: - Selecting custom fields for Account lookup rather than just the default Website field - Searching multiple selected fields for matching domains - Supporting multiple domains in fields separated by commas This means you have more flexibility in matching emails to Accounts using your custom Salesforce setup, without being limited to the default Website field. ## Available right now Check your webhook receiver settings to update your Account lookup fields. Or just reply to this email with any questions. Log in to update your webhook receiver

SuperSend integration is live!

Thu, 12 Feb 2026 00:00:00 GMT

Due to popular demand, OutboundSync now supports SuperSend for one-way sync of email engagement data into HubSpot and Salesforce! OutboundSync now supports: - Receiving webhook payloads from SuperSend for key email events - Updating CRM records with sent, opened, clicked, replied, and bounced details - Mapping SuperSend activities to OutboundSync's custom HubSpot and Salesforce fields This means you can scale outbound campaigns using SuperSend's managed enterprise infrastructure, while keeping your CRM automatically updated with all interactions. Existing SuperSend customers can activate a new webhook receiver any time in OutboundSync.

What is outbound CRM integration?

Mon, 09 Feb 2026 00:00:00 GMT

Outbound CRM integration is a software connection between an outbound sales engagement platform—such as Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, or HeyReach—and a CRM like HubSpot or Salesforce. It automatically syncs campaign activity into the CRM as structured records: emails sent, replies received, opens, clicks, bounces, and unsubscribes are all captured without manual data entry. The alternative—logging outbound activity by hand or using BCC email forwarding—breaks down once campaigns run at scale. Integration is what allows outbound data to power CRM automation, drive accurate attribution, and give sales teams a complete contact timeline. ## Why outbound activity needs to reach the CRM Most outbound campaigns run in dedicated sequencing tools separate from the CRM. That separation creates a data gap: the CRM holds relationship history and company data, but all the outbound engagement activity stays locked in the sending platform. Sales reps see a partial picture. Marketing can't trigger workflows off outbound events. And when a deal closes, there's no way to trace it back to the cold email campaign that started the conversation. Outbound CRM integration closes that gap by making the sequencer and the CRM a single system of record. ## How outbound CRM integration works A well-designed integration connects to the sequencer via webhook or API, listens for campaign events in real time, and writes them into the CRM as the appropriate objects. In HubSpot, this means: - Email engagements logged on the contact timeline - Custom timeline events (available to workflows and lists) for sent, replied, opened, clicked, bounced, unsubscribed - Updates to contact properties (lifecycle stage, lead status, campaign name, custom fields) - Optionally, new contacts and companies created when a prospect isn't already in the CRM In Salesforce, this means: - EmailMessage records (Enhanced Email) instead of raw email blobs - Task records for activity queues and handoffs - Contact and Account field updates - Custom object support for campaign tracking The best integrations also run in reverse: they read suppression data from CRM lists or reports and send it back to the sequencer so contacts are automatically blocked from future sends. This bidirectional sync is what prevents emailing existing customers, open opportunities, or opted-out contacts. ## What data a full integration syncs | Data type | What gets synced | |-----------|-----------------| | Emails sent | Content, subject, timestamp, sending mailbox, sequence name | | Replies | Reply content, classification (interested, not interested, etc.), timestamp | | Engagement events | Opens, clicks, bounces, unsubscribes | | Lead status | Category changes from the sequencer (e.g., replied, booked, not interested) | | Contact data | Name, email, company, title, custom fields from the sequencer | | Suppression | CRM lists pushed back to the sequencer as exclusion/block lists | ## When BCC falls short BCC email logging—where the CRM's unique forwarding address is added as a BCC recipient—is often proposed as a lightweight alternative to integration. It works for occasional manual sends, but breaks down at scale for several reasons: - Replies don't auto-log without a connected mailbox - Opens and clicks are not captured - Campaign context (sequence name, step, mailbox) is lost - Suppression can't be synced back to the sender - Mailbox rotation creates ongoing administrative overhead A full outbound CRM integration handles all of these cases natively. See our detailed breakdown of when to use BCC vs. a native integration. ## Who needs outbound CRM integration Outbound CRM integration is most valuable for: - SDR and BDR teams running high-volume sequences who need activity visible in the CRM for their AEs - Revenue operations teams building attribution models that include outbound touchpoints - Marketing teams using outbound engagement events to trigger HubSpot or Salesforce workflows - Agencies managing outbound on behalf of clients who require CRM delivery as part of the service - Founders and operators who want a single source of truth rather than separate tools for sending and CRM If you're running more than a few dozen outbound emails per week and your CRM doesn't reflect that activity, integration is the right next step. ## Frequently Asked Questions ### What is outbound CRM integration? Outbound CRM integration is a software connection between an outbound sales engagement platform—such as Smartlead, Instantly, or EmailBison—and a CRM like HubSpot or Salesforce. It automatically syncs campaign activity (emails sent, replies, opens, bounces, unsubscribes) into the CRM as structured records, eliminating manual data entry and keeping sales records current. ### Why do outbound teams need CRM integration? Without integration, outbound activity lives in a separate tool and never reaches the CRM. Sales reps can't see email history on a contact record, marketing can't trigger workflows based on outbound engagement, and revenue attribution is impossible. Integration creates a complete activity timeline in one place. ### What data does an outbound CRM integration sync? A full integration syncs sent emails, replies, opens, clicks, bounces, unsubscribes, and lead category changes from the sequencer into the CRM. It also syncs contact and company data, campaign and sequence names, and can update custom properties. Bidirectional sync additionally pushes CRM suppression lists back to the sequencer. ### What is the difference between BCC logging and outbound CRM integration? BCC logging copies email text to the CRM but loses campaign context, reply events, opens, and clicks. A native integration delivers all engagement events as structured CRM objects—engagements, timeline events, tasks—and supports bidirectional sync for suppression. BCC works for occasional manual sends; integration is required for campaigns at scale. ### Which outbound tools does OutboundSync integrate with? OutboundSync integrates Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, and HeyReach with HubSpot and Salesforce. It syncs campaign activity as native CRM objects, supports custom field mapping, and pushes HubSpot and Salesforce suppression lists back to the sending platform.

EmailBison Tag Attached events now supported

Wed, 04 Feb 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync now supports Tag Attached webhook events from EmailBison as Lead Category Updated events. This is live right now in your account. Here's what this means for EmailBison users: - You can now send Tag Attached webhooks from EmailBison to OutboundSync, this is in addition to the dedicated Interested webhook events. - Lead categories in HubSpot and Salesforce can be updated based on attached tags, especially useful for custom tags you can create like call or nurture. - This enables more advanced category-based filters with custom tags that go beyond Interested events. In order to take advantage of this, make sure that Tag Attached events are enabled and being sent to OutboundSync in your EmailBison account. You can also update your Category-based filters in OutboundSync to include these new events. To see how it works, book a demo with the OutboundSync team today.

Newly supported HubSpot custom contact properties

Wed, 28 Jan 2026 00:00:00 GMT

We are excited to announce new custom contact properties for HubSpot users that are great for seeing channel-specific performance and building omnichannel workflows. And now, OutboundSync only creates the properties required for the channel you're integrating. For example, if you're only using email, we will only create email properties. Going omnichannel with our new HeyReach integration was a major driver behind introducing these. The properties can be broken into two main groups. ### Channel-specific campaign and category information - Last email campaign ID/name - Last email lead category ID/name - Last social campaign ID/name - Last social lead category ID/name These properties will be useful for breaking out performance by channel when a contact does not convert on one outbound channel, but does convert on another. We still support the single, rollup properties currently in your account which will still be useful for last touch attribution. ### Contact-specific email data rollup - Number of opens - Number of link clicks - Last sequence step Teams can trigger specific actions for their sales reps or enrollment in other campaigns based on the number of email opens, number of link clicks, or the last sequence step. These are useful for teams using Smartlead, Instantly, and EmailBison. ## Available right now These new properties are available right now if you have Custom contact properties enabled on the webhook receiver that connects to your CRM. If not, you can enable them this way: 1. Log in to your OutboundSync account. 2. Go to your webhook receiver (or create a new one). 3. Make sure Custom contact properties are checked/enabled. 4. Click Update webhook receiver and HubSpot properties. 5. Verify that they were created in your HubSpot account. Curious to see how it works? Get a demo with the OutboundSync team today.

Custom task types are available

Thu, 22 Jan 2026 00:00:00 GMT

In case you missed it, we've added the ability to choose the task type when logging outbound activities as tasks in Salesforce, along with improved defaults. When you log activities from OutboundSync, you can choose to log those activities using either Email activities or Task activities. When logging as tasks, OutboundSync includes: - Setting tasks as complete by default - Using the webhook event date as the due date - Relating tasks to the Account (for Account/Contact writes) - Selecting task types: Call, Meeting, Email, Other, or custom By default, the task type is auto-populated based on the channel: - Email for Smartlead, Instantly, and EmailBison - Other for HeyReach ## There's more: Task subject lines We also shipped the ability to set custom task subject lines with fixed text and variable snippets. This is useful for building Flows and Reports in Salesforce. Read how to set up custom task subject lines in our Docs → ## Available now All this means reps get clearer activity history in Salesforce and revops teams get more accurate reporting. You can review and adjust them your webhook receiver settings anytime. If you'd like to see the entire platform in action, book a demo today.

A new login and look for the OutboundSync app

Thu, 15 Jan 2026 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync has a refreshed log in page and main app design that's live now for all users. Even though things look different, you're in the right place. Beyond an improved look and feel, we've also added: - A "Remember me" option to store a browser cookie for automatic login. - Improved page responsiveness for different screen sizes. - Links to OutboundSync's Privacy Policy, Terms of Service, and Cloud Service Agreement. - A new overall design system that lays the foundation for new features rolling out in the next few months. This means a cleaner, more user-friendly experience. And for login, we will not change the passwordless flow using email codes. To see the entire platform, book a demo today.

When you should BCC cold emails into your CRM

Wed, 12 Nov 2025 00:00:00 GMT

This is a walkthrough answering when you should BCC cold emails into HubSpot or Salesforce. BCC stands for Blind Carbon Copy and it's a feature supported in sales engagement platforms like Smartlead, Instantly, and EmailBison to share a copy of the email, while masking the BCC address from the recipient. > Bottom Line Up Front > > BCC'ing your CRM is easy, but it's brittle once you need replies, engagement events, campaign context, automation, and bidirectional suppression. Use BCC for one-off paper trails. For anything at scale, push structured data through an integration (like OutboundSync). We'll explain when BCC works, where it breaks, and what a durable setup looks like. ## What BCC to HubSpot or Salesforce actually does HubSpot and Salesforce gives each user a unique BCC/forwarding address. If you add that address to your email send settings in a sales engagement platform or email sequencer, your CRM will log the email's content and attachments and handles associations and relations as defined in your CRM settings. That's it. Replies back from your prospects will only log automatically if every secondary domain inbox used for cold email is connected. With HubSpot, this entails using their extension/inbox add-on. For Salesforce, a third party mailbox sync may be required. Otherwise, someone has to forward replies manually to the forwarding address. This is a manual process that is easy to miss at scale, which can result in data loss. When you think of emails sent from HubSpot you may think of email open and click tracking. These are not supported if an email is BCC synced in. A BCC alone does not inject HubSpot's tracking pixel. Nor would any email sent from a sales engagement platform or sequencer, besides HubSpot itself. There are also sender constraints. For HubSpot to accept a BCC/forward, the From address typically must be a HubSpot user, a connected inbox, or an approved alias. This is something that gets painful if you rotate many sending mailboxes. Salesforce offers a similar "Email-to-Salesforce/BCC" path, but modern orgs generally prefer Enhanced Email, which stores emails as EmailMessage records instead of Tasks (Salesforce still creates a Task for backward compatibility). ## Where BCC does and does not fit ### When BCC is the right tool for the job 1. One-off 1:1 messages. This is when you just need a record in HubSpot or Salesforce and you're already using the HubSpot extension for tracking. 2. Basic sending tracking. In these instances, deep workflow automation and sales enablement are not important. You may be testing an early outbound motion, or running a campaign that you don't care to retain much of the data long-term. ### When BCC breaks down 1. Replies and engagement are unavailable or unreliable. Replies don't auto-log without a connected inbox/extension, and even still, BCC copies don't bring opens/clicks into the timeline. Those engagement events can drive routing, SLAs, and follow-ups. 2. Mailbox rotation becomes an administrative work tax. If you're rotating many sending accounts (common with Instantly, Smartlead, EmailBison, and others), each mailbox must be a recognized user/connected alias in HubSpot or logging will fail silently. Keeping those aligned takes time. 3. You lose campaign context. BCC logs message content; but it doesn't know campaign name, sequence/step, mailbox, or reply classification. Those fields exist upstream in your sales engagement platform/sequencer and are explicitly available via webhook payloads used by tools like OutboundSync. 4. Automation and reporting suffer. HubSpot workflows and Salesforce Flows run best on structured objects/properties (emails, tasks, timeline events, fields). Generic BCC gives you an email blob; it doesn't publish the discrete events you want to trigger automation or build attribution. In Salesforce, BCC can also create "unresolved items" that need manual assignment if matching fails. 5. It's one-way. A blind copy can't update your sender. You can't pause sequences from a HubSpot list or a Salesforce report using BCC; you need a bidirectional sync. (This is why vendors expose webhooks/native integrations in the first place.) 6. Scale side effects. Gmail counts every address in To/Cc/Bcc against per-message and daily recipient limits. That extra BCC recipient does count. This is relevant if you're pushing volume from Workspace accounts. This means burning inboxes faster, higher cost of maintaining more inboxes, or both. Other providers may handle this differently, so investigate this yourself. ## What modern outbound needs that BCC can't provide - Event-level sync. Senders like Instantly, Smartlead, and EmailBison expose first-class events (sent, reply, open, click, unsubscribe, bounce, lead category changes). Those events can be used to provide lead scoring insights, drive omnichannel engagement like paid ads/social/phones, and they offer additional levels of insight into campaign effectiveness. - Suppression and exclusion. Use CRM lists/reports to block sending at the source (customers, competitors, sensitive accounts). This can't be done with BCC copies, as they only provide a one-way sync of select data and don't provide a deep bidirectional sync. - Appropriate CRM objects. - HubSpot: Log emails as engagements (Activities), and publish App/Timeline Events so lists/workflows can target the exact behaviors you care about. As an App Partner, OutboundSync uses this feature in HubSpot's developer platform by default. It is not supported via BCC. - Salesforce: Store mail as EmailMessage (Enhanced Email) and optionally create Tasks to drive activity queues and handoffs. - Benefits across both platforms: Update custom fields/properties, map additional data, control associations, sync via either upsert or update-only methods, and define specifically how contacts are looked up (this includes custom field/property lookup such as Object ID which can reduce or eliminate creating duplicates). ## Summary of why BCC fails at scale - No structured campaign metadata. - No guaranteed reply logging without connected inboxes. - Extra administrative work for mailbox rotation. - No suppression/exclusion capability upstream. - Adds to recipient counts in Gmail/Workspace. ## A quick word on deliverability Is a single CRM BCC a spam signal in and of itself? There is not any authoritative evidence we've seen of this. But official guidance from Google to avoid being flagged as spam are authentication (SPF/DKIM/DMARC), low spam complaint rates, and one-click unsub for bulk senders like marketing email service providers. On the other hand, some experts do report that having three separate domains between the to, from, and BCC domains can require additional time to review the email for concerns related to phishing, which may result in landing in spam. Regardless, mass BCC patterns and large hidden recipient lists are risky, and the extra BCC does consume recipient quota. ## Takeaways - Use BCC for simple, low-volume logging. - Don't use BCC as your system of record for outbound. It omits crucial engagement and campaign context, creates work with managing mailboxes, doesn't support upstream suppression/exclusion, and limits automation/reporting fidelity. - Do use webhook/API integrations (like OutboundSync) to deliver structured events and properties into the correct CRM objects, and send suppression back to the sender. If you want to graft your outbound campaigns to the core HubSpot or Salesforce data model, that's what OutboundSync is built to solve. Route outbound campaign data into your CRM so you can work in one place, trigger reliable automation, and attribute revenue. ## Frequently Asked Questions ### When should I BCC cold emails into my CRM? Use BCC for simple, low-volume 1:1 messages when you just need a basic paper trail—for example, early-stage testing or occasional manual sends. For campaigns at scale where you need reply tracking, campaign context, engagement events, and automated suppression, a structured integration is the better choice. ### Does BCC to HubSpot or Salesforce log email replies? Not automatically. In HubSpot, replies only log if the sending mailbox is connected via the HubSpot inbox extension. In Salesforce, a third-party mailbox sync may be required. Without a connected inbox, replies must be forwarded manually—a process that breaks down at scale and creates data loss. ### Does BCC'ing cold emails hurt deliverability? A single BCC is unlikely to trigger spam filters on its own, but it does count against Gmail Workspace's daily recipient limits. Some experts also report that having three separate domains across the to, from, and BCC fields may add processing time for phishing review. Mass BCC patterns carry more risk than single sends. ### What is the difference between BCC and a native integration like OutboundSync for outbound email? BCC logs email text but loses campaign metadata, reply classification, opens, and clicks. A native integration like OutboundSync delivers structured events—sent, reply, bounce, unsubscribe, lead category changes—into the correct CRM objects. It also supports bidirectional sync so CRM lists can suppress contacts at the sequencer level. ### Can I use CRM lists to suppress contacts from outbound sequences using BCC? No. BCC is one-way—it logs outbound emails to the CRM but cannot send suppression signals back to your sequencer. To pause or exclude contacts based on CRM data such as customers, competitors, or open deals, you need a bidirectional integration that reads CRM lists and applies them as exclusions in your sending tool.

Pushing HubSpot lists to HeyReach exclusion lists

Wed, 01 Oct 2025 00:00:00 GMT

We just released a new integration that makes it easy to keep your outbound campaigns clean and professional. With OutboundSync, you can now push a HubSpot list directly into HeyReach’s exclusion lists, ensuring customers, open deals, and other key contacts are automatically excluded from campaigns. This feature supports both default and custom B2B social profile URL properties in HubSpot, giving you the flexibility to match your setup. It’s part of our HeyReach HubSpot beta, with workflow triggers and Salesforce support coming soon. ## Watch ## Transcript 0:00 Hey, I want to tell you something cool. You can now go from a list in HubSpot to HeyReach's block list. 0:08 That means if you have your contacts enriched in HubSpot with their B2B social profile, they will be suppressed or blocked from being enrolled in new HeyReach campaigns. 0:24 Open deals, customers. You can make sure that they don't get messages that they shouldn't be receiving. Can I show you how it works? 0:32 Okay. I'm whispering, but I don't know why. I'm going to talk normally now. It's funny because at the beginning I went like this, but I actually am using my AirPods. 0:43 That's a microphone. Alright, so let's jump in here. We've got a HubSpot list. This HubSpot list- has a B2B social profile URL property. 0:53 If you go over to OutboundSync, we're connecting to that HubSpot account. We're selecting that we're using a contact list. 0:59 We're selecting the specific list, selecting HeyReach. And then we get to select which property. So you can use HubSpot's default property, but you can also use a custom one. 1:08 A lot of HubSpot portals out there have their own custom B2B social profile properties because, B2B social profile fields were just introduced in HubSpot. 1:15 So there's, like, hundreds of thousands of HubSpot accounts that have their own custom properties. You select a list, and then you hit Sync. 1:20 And look! Here it is! Ta-da! And I find this little noon thing. Hold on. Ta-da! I don't know if you can see that. 1:31 Umm. So now, this is existing in a list inside of HeyReach and when you go to load a lot of, a HeyReach campaign, you can select this as an exclusion list. 1:39 You can create a new one from OutboundSync, or you can select an existing exclusion list. So, super proud of this. 1:47 I just want to thank the HeyReach team so much, especially Umer and Ebru. Just incredibly helpful, uhm, in helping us build this feature out. 1:56 This is part of the OutboundSync HeyReach HubSpot beta. It's out Right now, we've got users who will have already seen this video before you see it, and who are already syncing data right now. 2:08 So, uh, super excited. Uh, what we've got coming up is we've got HubSpot and Workflow Actions. So, being able to trigger events from HubSpot, like enrolling, or unenrolling from existing campaigns, we've also got HeyReach and Salesforce coming. 2:26 So, keep an eye out, a lot to come, and, uh, excited to be building with you and for you. Thanks for watching. 2:32 Bye. Bye.

OutboundSync supports the new Clay native email sequencer

Wed, 16 Jul 2025 00:00:00 GMT

Clay quietly launched a native email sequencer—and it’s a bigger deal than most people realize. We’ve been testing it in beta, integrating it with OutboundSync, and now fully support it out of the box. In this video, we walk through how it works, who it’s best for, and why it could change how GTM teams and agencies build outbound campaigns. ## Watch ## Transcript 0:00 So, one of the hottest tools in go-to-market right now is releasing a sequencer, and nobody's talking about it. So we're going to change that. 0:08 I want to show you what Clay's sequencer looks like right now. This is in beta. I'm going to talk about how OutboundSync supports this out of the box. 0:17 I'm going to show you under the hood, in terms of how it works. And I'm going to explain the teams that I think are most likely to use this, because I don't think it's for everybody, but I definitely think that some teams are going to be adopting this, and I'm going to show you who I think those will 0:31 be. Before I get into all that, I just want to talk about why I'm covering this. Why are we supporting this? 0:36 Why are we spending support engineering time on this new sequencer? And the short answer is that we work with the best. 0:45 We work with the best agencies, the best teams, the best tools. We want to help get your outbound data into your system of record. 0:52 And when Clay says that they're going to be working on this, our ears immediately perked And fortunately, we've been working really closely with their team. 1:00 I just want to thank Clay, thank Larry in particular over there, who've been super receptive to feedback. We've had really good back and forth with them. 1:06 And because of this, I can tell you that out of the box, OutboundSync is supporting this right now. So let's just talk about how it works and why it's different. 1:15 So first, the UI of the sequencer. Think of this as a client account. So if you've used Smartlead before as an agency, you know that you can spin up client accounts. 1:26 Your Clay table essentially will be operating within a client account inside of Smartlead. And then they're displaying. Inputs for Smartlead inside of Clay. 1:39 So you never have to leave Clay if you don't want to, but you can jump over and look at what that Smartlead account looks like from the inside and I'll show you that in a second. 1:47 So think of this as a lightweight, nothing more, nothing less, exactly what you need to stand up outbound campaigns using Smartlead with Clay as the input and with Clay credits rather than spinning up and paying for a net new Smartlead account. 2:04 So if you're an existing Smartlead power user, this feature probably isn't going to be for you except for an agency use case that I'll talk about at the end. 2:13 For everybody else, it's pretty straightforward. You've got these inputs based on the messages in the sequence. You've got your connected accounts. 2:21 You've got some basic settings around how it's going to work and how it's going here's where Outbound Sync comes in. 2:27 You can take your existing Outbound Sync account, drop that Webhook Receiver link in here, and we're going to receive and handle the data just like we normally would from Smartlead itself. 2:38 Under the hood, this is just a Clay table. It's a Clay table, and like Clay's Write to Table feature, it basically just sends this table data over to the sequencer. 2:51 You can preview the sequences, you can see all the leads, you can see the data related to that lead. This is that row from the Clay table, basically broken out by property. 2:59 And if you're an existing Outbound Sync user, what you can do, even if you're using instantly your EmailBison, or soon if you're a HeyReach user, and you want to branch out into email outreach, Thank you All you have to do is just make a new webhook receiver, and you can do this for a Salesforce account 3:18 with all of the various settings that we have for Salesforce, or you can do it for our HubSpot account, it doesn't matter. 3:25 We're talking to the team about potentially having a way of doing this through Clay itself, and without needing to sign up for OutboundSync too, if that's interesting to you, let me know. 3:34 Right now, what we're supporting during the beta is Existence. Existing OutboundSync customers will be able to start using this at no additional cost, regardless of which sequencer they're using. 3:42 we send to two CRM endpoints, HubSpot or Salesforce. This is the same thing we've been working on for the last two years. 3:51 There's nothing new here. It works exactly like OutboundSync for every other platform that we support. We're logging activities as emails, as timeline events. 3:59 You can use these for a whole host of things like routing replies. You can also use them for revenue attribution. 4:05 And the same thing in Salesforce. Writing to leads or accounts and contacts. Writing as tasks or email messages. which is building a report and flows inside of Salesforce. 4:16 So let's talk about the teams that are going to be using this because I do think that there are three specific types of teams that are going to find this the most interesting. 4:23 And I'm curious what you think because this is new. And you know, who knows? First one is going to be teams that are just new to programmatic outbound. 4:32 They've probably seen content about Clay and how it works, seen all the signals and custom tracking and enrichments and things that you can do all in one place. 4:39 And they're just starting with that. And then rather than going out and setting up for a new sequencer, they're just going to use this sequencer out of the box. 4:46 I think these teams are going to be sending the lowest amount of volume, but I do think that you could have reps within larger orgs that are maybe more experimental or even a revops or GTM function within a larger org. 4:59 And that could be a way that Clay gets a foot in and they even, and therefore smartly would get a foothold into some of these larger orgs. 5:06 But that's going to bring me to the next one, which is teams that have an established outbound motion. They're using maybe a conventional sequencer, like an Outreach or a Salesloft, and they have a traditional data provider, like a ZoomInfo, let's just say, and they start playing around with Clay and 5:21 they realize the power of Clay and they start getting more into programmatic outbound. And they're not ready to sign up for a sequencer yet, but they want to start using a different sequencing option that has maybe more features around inbox rotation and warmup and things like that. 5:33 So I think that will be a really interesting opportunity. Um, and I think in terms of like revenue, probably the biggest usage opportunity, um, for teams that are going to be wanting to try this out. 5:45 And there's a whole lot of reasons why I think Clay's going to be able to execute. That really, really well for folks. 5:50 But the third one that's really interesting to me is for agencies. Agencies that have clients and that have teams, internal teams. 6:00 We have customers who have anywhere from five to ten to dozens, over a hundred, even one of our customers has a couple hundred sales reps. 6:08 they may want to be able to run their own tests. Plays, develop their own signals inside of an agency's clay account and use that existing, those existing clay credits, but then get help from the agency in terms of how to run it. 6:22 Maybe reviewing the tables or just checking things before they go live. But I think that there's going to be an interesting kind of symbiotic way that people may be using this where the client doesn't want to spin up their own smart lead account. 6:36 they want some guardrails for that. From an agency. And then I think where the really rubber hits the road is going to be that they're going to want that data in smart lead, excuse me, in Salesforce or HubSpot, just like the rest of the agency's campaigns. 6:50 So I can say, listen, agency's running campaigns for us. We want that data in Salesforce and HubSpot, but if we're going to run our own campaigns, we also want that data in Salesforce or HubSpot. 6:58 And so I think from an OutboundSync perspective, we'll be able to solve both of those use cases, right? And that data will be flowing regardless of which sequencer they're using, inclusive of the external campaigns and the internal campaigns that are being managed and executed. 7:12 So really curious to see where this goes. I've been super impressed by the Clay team as we've been rolling this out and just their responsiveness and willingness to work with us and take some feedback as, uh, as a team that has spent a lot of time thinking about this over the last couple of years. 7:29 And, um, yeah, I don't think it's going to take over the market by storm, but I also think this is going to be maybe more successful than people think because this friction of choosing a sequencer and setting up a sequencer, it comes up a lot. 7:44 It comes up a lot in conversations that we have, and I think that if the idea, The idea is to, you know, develop new plays, to test faster, and to drive pipeline. 7:56 If Clay can reduce friction for people, which they're doing here, I think that's a win for So, really curious what people think about this. 8:04 Like I said, I've seen very little discussion about this, so curious if anybody else has tried it out in beta, what you think. 8:10 I think it's a little under the radar, but maybe it won't be for long. Thanks for watching. And, uh, tell me what you think in the comments. 8:15 Thanks.

Introducing the outbound tech stack monitor by OutboundSync

Mon, 07 Jul 2025 00:00:00 GMT

We’ve been tracking 100+ tools behind the scenes—and more than half had an outage in the past month. So we decided to roll up that data and publish a free, live status dashboard for modern GTM teams. If you’re building with Clay, n8n, Trigify, or OutboundSync, you already know how fragile these GTM workflows can get. If something is breaking, now you don't have to wonder if it's you or the tool you're using. Check it out today by visiting: https://stack.outboundsyncstatus.com/ ## Watch ## Transcript 0:00 Hey, you know how everyone's building these very sophisticated automations and workflows using Clay and N8n and Outbound Sync and all of these other products? 0:13 Trigify, seeing that more and more and more. Modern go-to-market engineering is very interdependent. All these tools have to work together and there are a lot of dependencies. 0:24 I want to show you something that we've been putting together. I've been running and monitoring this for over a month now. 0:34 And it's basically an aggregated status page. It's powered by a tool called StatusGator. So you can actually, users can report their own outages. 0:43 Right now we've got 104 different tools That we have seen our users are using to run their modern go-to-market So if you go to stack.outboundsyncstatus.com, this is free. 0:59 Now subscription is not free. We don't offer email updates to everybody. It's just for users, but anybody can go here anytime. 1:07 If one of your go-to-market tools is not behaving as you expect, you can check it out. And you can see an update here. 1:14 It's going to include both official status pages and community-reported outages. And I'm just going to tell you that over half of these tools have had an outage in the last month. 1:27 So basically a coin toss. And I can tell you that of the ones that have an official status page, many of them are outdated, if not all flat-out don't get updated at all. 1:40 So I have found this very useful for us as we're shipping things in different chats where people are mentioning their outages. 1:47 You know, I can be like, yep, we're seeing that as well. We've seen status gators catching that as well and we have this rolled up. 1:52 So check it out, stack.outboundsyncstatus.com. It's free to check out. We use it internally and I figured why not just make it available publicly. 2:00 It's not a SaaS. It's not, I have nothing to sell you. Um, but if you are using tools and you notice they're out, check it out. 2:06 Right now, all systems operational, which is great. This is a rare positive, uh, green dashboard. And so I figured it, I figured I'd share it on a good day and I figured I'd share this after, um, like I said, about a month, over a month of tracking this. 2:17 Um, it's been really, really useful for us. So yeah, check it out. Hope it's helpful and have a good one.

Why outbound sales just got interesting again

Mon, 30 Jun 2025 00:00:00 GMT

AI is changing the impact of traditional content and paid ad channels—but it’s also unlocking new levels of scale and precision in outbound. In this conversation with Keith Perhac from SegMetrics, Harris Kenny of OutboundSync breaks down how outbound is evolving into a scalable, programmatic channel that rivals paid media in reach and performance. They explore how segmentation, speed, channel strategy, and attribution are shaping the new playbook for growth in 2025. ## Watch ## Transcript 00:00 AI might be steadily eroding the returns from paid ads and content marketing, but it's super charging what's possible from outbound. 00:07 In this episode of Data Beats Opinion, we dive into how AI, programmatic, outbound, and precision targeting are revolutionizing cold outreach. 00:22 Alright, welcome to another episode of Data Beats Opinion. I am your host Keith Perhack from Segmetrics. And today, super excited. 00:30 We have Harris Kenny from Outbound Sync. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me, man. Yeah, I'm excited. 00:35 So this actually came about because we are both tiny seed companies. And even within tiny seed, we are two companies that are very focused on kind of a similar market, which is that marketing sales slash how can we get people to become customers on the internet kind of thing. 00:54 We'd love to hear a little bit about what outbound sync is, and then get into maybe how you started it. 01:00 Yeah, for sure. And then even within that, integration tools within that space. So we're sort of like very much cousins. 01:08 Yeah, exactly. In the tech seed family. For sure, man. Yeah. So great to be on the show, and just a fan in general of Segmetrics, I remember before we even applied and always like admired what you were building here in it, saw in my head like, okay, these are the kind of companies that Rob and Tracy 01:24 and Einar are investing in. And so super fun. Thanks for the opportunity to chat. And yeah, I mean, on my side where we got started was I was running an agency, an outbound agency for about three and a half years. 01:35 And the tools didn't talk to each other. You know, we were sending a cold email and we were a HubSpot partner as well at the time. 01:42 And the tool we were using smartly, smartly data did not integrate with HubSpot at all. And we had customers who were asking that for that. 01:51 And so we started there just getting smartly data into HubSpot. And we have just basically built on that in the last two years. 01:59 So let me add it. And else for us, and then we added a few more emails, sequencers. Did you continue on with the agency after that or how have you kind of done the agency with the software or shut down the agency or what was kind of your strategy there? 02:11 Yeah, great question. So well, you kind of got to go back a little bit, but I started working for myself in 2019 before my wife and I started having kids and growing a family. 02:22 I just wanted to have the flexibility. I didn't know exactly what I was going to do, but I had had about a decade of experience doing sales and marketing growth stuff. 02:31 And I thought I would be able to piece something together. So I was doing a fractional sales for a little while. 02:37 And it was tough. Well, about like eight months after I started the business, there was that whole global pandemic situation. 02:45 That, which wasn't the best timing. and I think as an advocate, I was able to get through that somehow on my own and realized like, oh, you know, it's really obvious. 02:57 But if I'm not working, if I get sick or something, money stops. And so I felt very unsure. And even within that, because I was a one person consulting, like, I didn't get any help from anybody. 03:09 There was literally no program at any level of government. And not even my own bank was like getting back to me about like options. 03:17 And I drummed just being like, wow, this is, I'm really on my own here. It's something I don't think a lot of people realize they see the single founder out there and they're like, oh, it's the dream life. 03:28 And it's like, there are a lot of things. Society is not really built for that, right? Like getting alone. And that's why things like, I don't remember the name of the bank, but there was a the Silicon Valley bank. 03:40 I don't remember. Maybe it was so popular among founders was because it understood SaaS and it understood this idea of, oh, I don't have assets because we're a software company. 03:54 I don't have revenue, I have MRR, right? And the value of that over a standard, yeah, a lot of, Oh, yeah, definitely. 04:03 They caught up. Yeah, and they wouldn't, and I think they didn't require as much personal commitment to underwrite the companies and they also had this ability to like, if you raised venture capital, they would like manage that those funds for you. 04:15 Yeah, definitely. I think it's like a segment of and at this time I was just running a consultancy. So there was no money, no raised money, and there was even a person I knew who was like a VP of business banking, who I had known from years earlier, who was at the credit union I was at. 04:31 And I remember messaging him on social and being like, hey man, like credit union who, you know, they're not an SBA preferred lender. 04:40 So I have like access to nothing at the moment. Do you have any idea like anyway the whole thing was just really actually it was pretty intense so I like left that period one of the one of the thoughts as we were going through that was okay, I gotta like how else can I make money. 04:55 How else can I build a business to support my life of wanting to be a good dad and a good husband and found Rob's podcast stars for the rest of us. 05:04 And so when I was listening to that podcast, and I ended up having a few different SaaS ideas, ended up turning my sort of consultancy into more of an agency, and then from the agency, the goal I eventually was to have a SaaS. 05:18 I had five different ideas. The fourth one of five was OutboundSync, which was the best that took off the most. 05:24 And so I tested it slowly, I bundled it with services, then I sold it on its own as like an okay SaaS. 05:31 And then, but revenue grew. I joined tiny seed. And then when I joined tiny seed, I committed to shutting down the agency completely. 05:39 And it was just the summer of 2020 or where I was doing both. And that was zero out of 10. 05:47 Do not recommend. It was excruciatingly hard as a solo founder of two really different businesses. So I'm down the side of that now. 05:54 Agency's done all along the sass. And yeah. That's interesting because that's essentially the story that we had as well. And we shut down the agency fully, I think a year after tiny seeds. 06:05 We had like some struggling clients that we continued to work with after tiny seed. But it was exactly, you say, it's impossible to grow that sass while you're focusing on an agency and making that trade for time to money versus time to no money, right? 06:23 because an agency is paid, you are getting paid for how much you work, right? It's dollar in, it's a time out dollar in, right? 06:33 And assasses the opposite where you are spending a lot of time up front for no return with the hope that that then build on itself and stacking bricks to get you return on the end. 06:45 But it's a hard decision to make when you're running that agent's like, oh, So I can work for two days and build that out at billable hours or I can work for two days and get zero. 06:55 Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You can actually see in RMR chart exactly where we stopped, where we let clients go and start focusing on psychometrics every time we do that revenue went up or MRR went up. 07:09 Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then, you know, and then combine that we had, you know, growing the family, we've got two kids now and we went through some really tough medical family medical situation during that time. 07:21 So, I mean, the last, it's been a long couple of years here. So, I mean, knock on wood. I mean, things could always get worse, I guess, but I do feel comfortable about position number in today. 07:33 I feel like we've got a great team. It's an interesting space we're growing. So I'm hopeful I'm cautiously optimistic, but, you know. 07:43 And that's something I want to dive into because sales has changed a lot in the last. I will even say like four months. 07:50 Yeah. Like it is, I am inundated with sales outreach, whereas before like occasionally I get a call, I may be have one or two emails a day, it is constant now. 08:04 Yeah. And I'd love to hear what it, how do you see the industry changing right now? Like, yeah. Yeah, for sure. 08:12 It is interesting. I mean, it's a real cat mouse game across these different channels and kind of where, I mean, we can talk about individual channels and how people are optimizing. 08:22 We can talk about how AI is being used across these channels and we can talk about kind of like where I'm seeing people win right now. 08:30 I mean, there's so many different things like topics within this that we could talk about. I mean, I think that But in general, the velocity is crazy fast right now, things are changing really, really, really fast. 08:43 Let's start the macro level. What's the, I mean, I think everyone knows this, AI, this changes this, but what's the overarching change that you're seeing? 08:52 And then let's dive into some of the specific channels that, and talk about how they're changing in some channels going down the toilet and some becoming better, right? 09:01 Yeah, I mean, I think that overall what I would describe is happening is the transition to programmatic outbound. Is that if you look at, no matter what channel you're looking at, whether it's email, phone, social, I mean, even DMs on a platform like X or direct mail, I mean, literally anything with 09:25 the exception of between extent, even WhatsApp. I mean, SMS, MS, I think is the one that's kind of less infected by this because there's such clear rules from the FCC and there's such a clear penalty that most people are just, they're just not messing with it. 09:47 But outside of that, everything is going programmatic, which means like the ability to crank volume in a lot of different ways, I mean, in different ways. 09:57 But to me, that's what's happening is that what was a one-to-one activity is now becoming a one-to-many activity across across every channel. 10:05 And that's putting pressure on like tons of different systems in tons of different places. And at Bonsink, we are part of that. 10:11 I mean, we are part of that evolution that's happening for better or for worse. That as people are exploring these new tools, especially point solutions to get But alpha or to get return on these different point solutions, they're like venturing further off the path into like more of these niche tools 10:31 to accomplish niche tasks. We help bring that data back into the CRM and that's kind of our job to be done is when you pursue these new tools, you know, you don't want to asylum that data out in another place. 10:44 And so it's sort of the informal part of the neighborhood, whereas I think psychometrics is covering a lot more of the like more formal established kind of tools. 10:53 A lot of the ones that we tend to work with are there more on the edge, I guess. So when you talk about the niche tactics, what does that mean? 11:04 Like what are some, can you give me some examples? Yeah, so well, I mean, like one interesting one email gets talked about a lot. 11:11 So we don't have to talk about like, oh, like deliverability is getting harder. I think like a lot of people know that phones are an just want to talk about it because it's a little different. 11:20 So there's multiple ways that people are doing dialing today. And so if you think about it as like an equation, like if you're doing an X number of dials, you've got like your numerator, denominator. 11:30 One way that's been more in the convogue in the last few years has been parallel dialing. So a sales rep can be using a tool like orm or nooks, and they can be dialing multiple numbers at the same time. 11:42 And so like, if I want to get more connects, if I want by calling more people. And one way to call more people is to have multiple phone numbers dialing simultaneously and that when there's a connect on any one of those lines, it then passes the connection to a person to pick up the phone and pick up 12:02 the conversation. So that's like one thing that's happening on the dialing side, parallel dialers. But the other thing that's happening is our dialers aren't new. 12:11 That's where you have a dialer that works through a list of numbers sequentially, like after the other, after the other, after the other, and there's often like a human in the loop sitting there like waiting for a connect to happen and it auto dials for them. 12:23 But what the animation that's happening there recently is the idea of scoring a phone numbers for the propensity to answer. 12:31 And so the idea here is that like there's a percentage of the population that answers the phone. They for whatever reason prefer or have to get information that way because of their job or because of their whatever. 12:40 And so there's These data providers that are scoring with a P score, propensity score, like a P1 is a likelihood answer. 12:48 And so if you're a phone person and these data providers identify you as such, then I don't actually don't have to increase my number of dials horizontally. 12:59 I can improve my connect rate by actually lowering my denominator, calling fewer people, but the people who I call have the higher quality. 13:07 25% to 40% chance of answering. And I've tested this myself and I've gotten literally 40% connect rates, which is very high. 13:15 But in that case, you use a different stack. You can even use a regular phone because you're just calling like 10 people, one after the other manually. 13:22 You don't even have to go all these things because you're pushing the validation and something to another part of the stack where someone else is doing that for you. 13:32 So anyway, but these are just two examples of how to call phone numbers. And even within that, you've got dialing mobile numbers. 13:37 Even within that, you've got data providers that are not really specializing by geography. So it's like, oh, well, this provider's really good for Europe, this provider's good for Australia. 13:47 You also have verification of numbers where they just check and make sure a line is still active. It's just phones. 13:53 But this is happening everywhere, basically. Every point of the stack, there's this unbundling. It's really fascinating because from the outside, because I'm not in sales. 14:07 we've done sales. We've worked with sales companies before to do all this kind of stuff. But we always see it as a numbers game that is now increasing because of AI and this parallelism, right? 14:20 So you can now, where you could maybe do a thousand or five thousand people, now you can do a hundred thousand or a million people just because it is so paralyzed with AI and being able to do that stuff. 14:33 But what you're talking about is almost using that different type of technology, but that technology to go back to almost, kind of like an 80s or 90s strategy of sales calls where you are more in-depth on each person. 14:49 Yeah. But you have a much better list. You have a much better quality lead for each caller, for each outlook that you're, outreach that you're doing. 15:00 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely starting to happen. And I think I think like you're seeing much, much better segmentation now where people are using web enabled AI agents to find, not just software companies, but software companies that have SOC2. 15:16 And they're finding that by going to the site, going to the footer, finding the security page, then the web agent goes to the security page or they're looking for metadata of like an image that includes SOC2.paying or whatever and making a determination on like. 15:28 And so then now, if I'm a company that does like GDPR compliance, I say, hey, notice you have SOC 2, and I know your software company and so software companies, they all sell globally, you know, have you thought about GDPR compliance or whatever. 15:44 So yeah, I do think, and the potential to do that kind of stuff at scale, so like I can feed a list of 50,000 domains to an agent and have one at a time, a web enabled agent check each website and now I've got, I go from 50,000 down to like 10,000 or whatever. 16:03 And then within that, I can do more, I can segment based on whatever, you know, head counts size and things like that. 16:09 So yeah, I do think that it's like, there is like a potential for a return to like much better segmentation, much better list building. 16:18 But I mean, I will say like honestly, like sometimes it is a numbers game. And it's just like, but then the question's like, what's the offer. 16:28 So it's like worse, I'm seeing people, this is where I think programmatic op-ount and like app-ount is marketing, like it's moving out of the marketing umbrella where I'm seeing people use programmatic op-ount to like get newsletter subscribers, like B2B brands are like interesting. 16:41 Just like promoting podcasts, like they're not even trying to get a meeting. They're just like, hey, we just interviewed some of them. 16:47 How does that, okay, my mind's getting a little bit blown. How does that even work? I mean, I assume it's similar to ads, but is that exactly exactly it's like an ad network essentially. 16:57 It's like a private ad network That's crazy. Yeah, and I would assume not phone. I would assume that's mainly email More email and social. 17:06 Yeah DM stuff like that stuff. Yeah, I mean, I mean it depends on what the thing is right like it Like let's say like people are doing like dinners and stuff, right? 17:13 So like calling a listen being like hey, we're hosting a dinner. Let me know if you're interested It's gonna be you know at the same what's the Shopify shop talk or whatever Shopify is like But hey, we're going to have a big like event at like a Brazilian stayhouse, like let me know if you're just, you 17:26 know, just so that's like a marketing thing. So some of these sales tools are being not deployed towards like marketing objectives. 17:33 So everything is kind of getting shuffled up and some people are getting incredible results with that. Like I know people around really successful place, excuse me, getting guests on podcasts. 17:43 I'm really successful using cold email to do that. Yeah. We get a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so the idea would be like, oh, for this podcast, if you're like, oh, we want to go, we want to get guests. 17:54 You're like, you know, if you want to record every day, you want to turn this into a daily, you could spin up a campaign, and I guarantee you could fill a recording calendar with people who would be legit. 18:02 Yeah. Nothing you should or need to. But like, that's kind of stuff that people are using these tools to like do all sorts of different things. 18:08 And then if you're like a big SaaS with the PLG motion, I mean, fyxer.ai, they've talked about this. I mean, they're sending, I think like a literally over a million emails a month, but they have a huge PLG motion and so people see the name, they end up on the website, they see it again, they end up 18:22 signing up later, like it's ads, like you exactly what you said, like people are thinking of it as ads. And just to clarify for people who might not, PLG product-like growth, correct? 18:31 Mm mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Sorry, just as you were trading. Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah. So they're a PLG product-like growth company, right? 18:38 So like a very low-cost product. So historically, the like heuristic was like, oh, you have to have a high ACV to do outbound because you have to have a sales lead motion and the point of outbound is to get a meeting, but like now people are spinning up like whole panels of email accounts so that the 18:58 cost per account is like essentially free. That's crazy. Yeah. So it's weird. Oh man. It's weird out there. Yeah, so this kind of ties into something that we're seeing recently, which is advertising to start to eat itself. 19:13 AI has taken over search to a degree. Ads have started to go the AI route, which means that your ad optimization is now at the behest of Facebook and Google, right? 19:27 So you don't, there's not many levers you get to touch anymore. It's essentially pay money to Google and they get you, they get you people. 19:34 that's the dynamic now. And so a lot of people are trying to find what is the next thing? How do we get ads in front of people? 19:44 How do we get promotions in front of people that are not the standard ad ad networks? And it's interesting that it's co-opting almost the outbound for a marketing or ad play. 19:59 That's fascinating. Well, I mean, Fyxer, when they've talked about this, they've compared it. They've literally said, we are going to compare cold email to meta ads and see which has a lower cost of acquisition or cost of acquired customer. 20:14 So they're like, they're literally comparing it head to head on a cost per customer basis. That's crazy. You said they're doing email or they're doing it just all, wow, that's crazy. 20:26 Now they have a huge tab. If you have an inbox, if you, I mean, frankly, a lot of people have multiple emails. 20:30 email inboxes. So, I mean, their tab is in 7 billion. It's like, I mean, they're one 10, like multiple tens of billions because most people have more than one email address. 20:40 Most people have two. At least, if they have an email address, they have a work in a personal, right? So, it, and that's who they're selling to. 20:48 It's like this AI thing that manages your inbox and does a bunch of other things. So anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really interesting, really, really interesting time with that. 20:56 And then out of home stuff is picking up and like this in-person stuff and events and so it feels like everything's in the air right now from from what I see on the side of things. 21:05 So how would I think that there's always a poll in companies about oh should I do more marketing should I do more SEO should I do content should I do outbound normally the traditional wisdom is kind of like what you said when you have a high cost product, that's when you start sales. 21:27 But what it sounds like is that sales or outbound should start pretty much at the same time that you would do marketing. 21:36 Like what I guess in your mind, what would be the lever? When do you make that decision? It's like, okay, now I should probably start trying to do outbound even if it's not sales led outbound. 21:47 Yeah, totally. I mean, it depends on what size of company and all these other or caveats, but like in general, the number one failure mode I see is better to launch. 21:58 That's like they just, people say I should try that and I don't do it. And I mean, frankly, like this isn't a sales pitch for me, for our product, people who use it, they tend to be more at scale, they tend to have teams and stuff, right? 22:12 So if you're like a small company, I am like not, I mean, if you want to use our product heck, yeah, great. 22:15 But like in general, that's not our typical customer, you know? So this isn't even like, I'm not trying, my goal is not to educate the market and to get more people going from zero to one on outbound, like it's people who are doing outbound who want to like attribute it better. 22:29 That's kind of our customer, right? It's kind of probably, it's a lot more of like a segmentrix type, more sophisticated, like robots and marketing org. 22:38 So like if you're not doing outbound right now, I have nothing to benefit from you sending 100 emails a week or whatever. 22:44 Like I have nothing to sell you basically. But the number one failure mode I see in general is like Not doing it or not doing it like enough where it even matters and I think up on it's great for tight feedback loops It forces you to ask hard questions about who are we selling to and what's an offer 22:58 and if we can't come up with an offer Like we got a problem really, you know, and you can run like simple campaigns and I think that I think I think I think I think a company should always have at least one out on channel running in some way at some time I'm heavily biased towards sales and marketing 23:11 and growth But I think like if you're not growing you're dying and I think like you have to constantly be investing in growth both. 23:20 I do feel pretty strongly about that. And I think there's almost no amount of focus you can do. You can't focus too much on trying to invest in growth in the company in some way because otherwise, I don't know. 23:32 I mean, I'm not saying it to grow forever and be a trillion dollar company, but like, you know, you got to be going somewhere, right? 23:39 I mean, what do you think? I mean, you've been in the game for a long time. What longer than me? 23:41 What do you think? I agree. I agree. I think the always growing is, I think there is a point at which you're like, yep, we're good. 23:53 We're definitely not there yet. We're still like I still have aspirations of much more revenue that we're doing right now. 24:01 But I 100% agree that it is the focus and like you said, the launching of that and not just the initial launch but the continued improvements and working on a singular marketing strategy and this is always one of the problems that we had back to the agency where we worked with so many different clients 24:22 , we knew so many different things and it's all very exciting webinars or fun like YouTube video content is fun like SEO is fun like quizzes are fun like all of this stuff podcasts are fun. 24:34 Like all this stuff is really fun to do and it all works as long as you focus on something. And the problem that we always had was that we would jump between multiple things and we wouldn't put the effort into each of them because we were trying the next thing. 24:49 But when we, the clients that we worked with who were really succeeding, they found one or maybe two things and they just went all in on it. 24:57 One of our clients, he did a weekly webinar and at the beginning, there was no one on it. It was like he was in a room talking to himself and he would put it out on Facebook afterwards and he did that week after week he got better and better and then there was one person and then 10 and then soon there's 25:14 like 300 people on these weekly webinars every week right like it just you got to put in the effort there's no immediate thing that you're going to do and just succeed right off the bat or if you do you're very lucky so it really is like you're saying and you show up, you do the work for one thing continuously 25:34 . Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I think that, yeah, I think people just don't try, like, I don't know, yeah, they think it's just gonna happen or whatever, it's like, you gotta, I mean, the amount of effort it takes is extraordinary. 25:45 And I say that with our agencies, and you've ran an agency yourself, I mean, that's one thing, you know, we talked about like some hot takes. 25:51 One hot take that I've seen is like, I think people will give agencies a bad rap. And like what I've seen is that our agencies work exceptionally hard. 25:58 and I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to percentage on this, but in many instances, I see the agency is working harder than the client to try to generate results for the client. 26:11 And there's this idea of the principal agent problem and in theory, the principal, the person who's hiring the agent or agency should care more about the problem because they're companies or whatever. 26:21 But I have seen the inverse to be true. And I just think it takes an extraordinary amount of effort. Even when you hire someone to do it, I think sometimes they're working harder on it than you think. 26:30 Now, that's not always true. Obviously, but from what I've seen and working really close to these people, they really, really care. 26:36 They're not being like, haha, I got a good retainer and not going to go mess around and do nothing. You see the timestamps of Slack messages and emails and you just know that they are really trying to figure stuff out. 26:49 I see them in WhatsApp groups talking to each other and sharing notes and trying to find ideas about how to get an edge and how to get it to work better. 26:54 And so that is something I think that like people that are in these growth roles, I think they like care in general, like care a lot and work a lot harder than people may realize from the outside. 27:03 And when someone is having success, there's probably so much more that went into that than it then you know when you're looking at it. 27:11 This is nowhere I was planning on taking the conversation, but I this is fast. I have many thoughts about this. 27:19 Okay, go. I love to dive into this. Again, I agree. I would not, I, I agree with you. I think that there are some agencies and some agencies that do that. 27:33 That it is a numbers game. They don't care. You're just another number. They want to keep you happy. But there is not the sophistication or knowledge within the agency to be able to support you correctly. 27:47 Those definitely exist. But I agree that especially with smaller agencies, they really want you to succeed. And I would also agree that when the principal at the company is getting an agency, the agency does care more. 28:05 And the reason is, is because if the principal cared more, then they would do it themselves or hire someone internally. 28:11 They would not, if it's a core piece of your business, you are not going to get an agency to do it. 28:18 You're going to build an internal team to do it. If you're testing it out, if this is just another thing you're doing, if you don't know what you're doing with it, then you'll probably get an agency or something. 28:30 But I agree that usually the client wants the result. They don't care about the day to day of what that actually is and they don't care about the process that the agency is going through to do it as long as they are delivering those results. 28:49 Yeah. Yeah. And definitely the results matter more than anything else, right? But it's just like, I don't know, I feel like people are really trying and they're getting really creative and they're trying new things and I feel like there's not enough credit given for that. 29:02 Because I just see it, you know, and you see people like, ah, yeah, we had some churn on this one. 29:05 You can tell they're like kind of like dang it. We threw a lot at that, you know, I think for smaller agencies. 29:11 I can't speak to like big advertised agencies that have hundreds or thousands of employees. I just don't have exposure to that part of the MarTech ecosystem and so I just I just don't know what it's like to work for one of those big shops, but you know agencies under 50 people is kind of where I have 29:28 a lot of experience and that that's what I'm seeing. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Awesome. So I want to go into some other things that I have a whole list of things I want to talk about. 29:41 So of course we're looking at outbound and then response rates and of course wanting to become a customer, but that's kind of the end piece of the whole thing. 29:53 From that, hey, I'm doing outreach to hey, you're a customer, what are some of the metrics, the things that you look at to say, hey, we're doing well here, you know, those kind of leading indicators instead of lagging indicators of like becoming a customer. 30:07 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think like one of the first ones is how long does it take you to ship a campaign? 30:14 So if it takes you a long time to ship a campaign, you have some internal organizational issue, like it shouldn't take a month to ship an app on campaign. 30:24 And so like speed to shipping of campaign, it's like you have some alignment issue, you've got some product market fit issue, like there should be some level of understanding of who are we selling to, What do they care about? 30:35 How should we segment the list? I'm not saying it's easy, but it shouldn't be that hard. So if it's taking a long time to ship campaigns, that's like your first sign of a problem. 30:42 And then after that, so assuming you're shipping, then you kind of jump down to reply rates. So if the reply rate is really low, like under 1%, you may have an infrastructure issue. 30:52 You may have a data problem, you may have like an inbox problem or bad phone numbers or social accounts are getting locked or whatever, Chandler you're using, but like, If it's below 1%, it's suspiciously low, especially with email, because you should be getting out of office replies and stuff at a 31:07 minimum, right? So then, if you get that reply rate up a bit, okay, we're sending, we can send something, it's arriving at some level of deliverability, we're getting some level of engagement with it, then that's where you start looking at, okay, what's the response rate within that? 31:23 And this is like where one of my opinions about the agencies come from, is that what we three X, the pipeline influence that they're getting credit for. 31:32 And the reason why we know that is because we're sending the data out of spot in Salesforce where there's better attribution reporting inside of the CRM just for outbound anyway. 31:41 And so we can see, oh, well, here's like 50 people who got emails never responded, but actually did convert. They clicked on an ad on it or they signed up for the product or whatever. 31:51 And so that's where my, my, my, my opinion is once you get the replies and you kind of got some level of engagement, that's when you have to kind of open the aperture a little bit and say, okay, there's multiple forms of a conversion. 32:01 The gold standard is we get to reply, it's positive. It leads to a meeting. The meeting is positive. It leads to a deal of the deal of closes. 32:08 Great. Outbound crushed it. We made money out of thin air. But there are other outcomes short of that or that don't meet every single one of the checkboxes that are still positive. 32:20 Where it's like another person within the company signed up or that person signed up but like a day later through another channel or whatever. 32:28 And so that's kind of where we see where we're trying to get people to focus a little bit when we look at getting the data into an environment with the rest of the data that they have. 32:36 That's actually fascinating to me because we see the same thing with advertisements where a lot, you know, it's going back to billboards, which are not trackable at all. 32:46 But they are things that influence people to purchase. And so So you're showing the same thing without reach where, and now that you're saying this, I have done this internally as well, where I get some sort of outreach, I forward it to someone on my team. 33:00 It's like, hey, we should look into this. They're not responding. I'm not responding, but we're going to go to the website and look around. 33:06 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Fascinating. And like anecdotally, like, I helped a TinySeed company founder just like as a buddy, I built a list for him, and he's shipped a campaign, and he was like, well, I'm not getting a lot of replies, but my website traffic is noticeably up. 33:22 Like he's like, I can see it. He's like, I've been looking at this chart for three years. He's like, I know what our, I know what our web traffic is, you know? 33:29 Right, right. And, and I can see some of them are clicking the secondary domain, try acme.com. They're going to that secondary domain and then it's redirecting. 33:38 Some of them are clearly just typing in the name and, in Google or whatever and then landing through search. So it's like anecdotally like we have those little, those, those little examples and then we have others that go further. 33:49 So yeah, this is where I think like programmatic outbound or outbound as marketing. Like, I don't know. I don't have like a single unifying term for all this, but like, I think the parallel is there. 33:57 And that's what's funny about it. It's like all these lessons, though, like GTM engineering or scaled outbound community, like marketing figured this stuff out like 15, 20, you know, in some things 100 years ago. 34:08 People are like going back to Oglivy to be like, what if your subject line wasn't bad, you know, but it's like how old are these Ogle Visms, you know? 34:14 So I think there's a lot of catching up to do on the sales side with this stuff. Yeah, I think that I think you just touched on something that drives me the nuts the most about marketing as it becomes scalable, right? 34:25 Like this, right? It's all so bad, right? It was bad before, but there was a there was a floor because you had to spend a lot of time and money to get the ads. 34:36 Yeah, there were bad TV commercials, but you're spending a million dollars, a hundred thousand dollars, whatever to get it and to like record the thing and to like edit and And to get it on there, like, there's a modicum of effort going into it. 34:50 Now that it's all AI generated, there's so much that's just like schlock going out there. We did an audit of some of our ads that were being auto-generated because the way Google works with ads now is you list up a bunch of terms and then it picks them and puts them together in the best way. 35:09 and one of our, one of the ads was Segmetrics? Segmetrics, Segmetrics. And that was the whole ad. That was one of the combinations. 35:19 Like Google was like, this would be a great ad for you. This is it. So that's like that old meme of like that show, Pimp My Ride. 35:30 Or it's like, you know, like, yo, I heard you like Segmetrics. So I put Segmetrics in your Segmentrix, like one. 35:36 Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, how many impressions does it take to for someone to remember you? So if you just stuff them all into one ad, then you, you know, oh, that's the strategy. 35:45 Yeah. Yeah. It's like you could take nine women and make a baby. Nine touch points. Exactly. The nine touch points you need before you, before you relate to a brand, they're just getting all out of it. 35:54 Exactly. Exactly. One ad. Nine mentions. Boom. But it really does show like beat. I think there is a, we started doing this with ads and I started doing this a little bit without reach, but you put quality in better subject lines, better relationships, and not the AI schlock that everyone else is, and 36:13 I say AI derisively, but like any non, any fake schlock really is just not going to convert because people can smell that a mile away. 36:29 And it really is going back to old school marketing from even the 50s and 60s and 70s and stuff like that, where you were paying for that stamp, you were paying someone to put it in the novel open, send it out, you had to put care into it. 36:43 Now, in order to stand out, you have to put care into it. Because it is possible in a month to go through the entire population of the world and email every single one of them, right? 36:57 And he spammed your tam. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, no, for sure. I think I do think so. I think you're seeing a lot of more creativity As a result of that and there's ways that people are using AI that are really really cool like segmentation I think is really cool going through programmatically 37:12 and splitting up and saying, okay. Yes, it's a SaaS company But it is the right kind of SaaS company like to me those ways of using AI are really powerful And can result in significantly better campaigns But if it's like feeding the whole thing and having it, you know, GPT right like a whole thing. 37:29 That's like I don't know about that Yeah, it's I have seen it be the the best for analyzing and summarizing much less creating. 37:42 My favorite one that I got recently was like, hey, I just went, because we're in Portland, Oregon and I said, hey, I just went to the food carts downtown on Washington last week. 37:52 They were great. Those close down four years ago. It was like, no, you didn't. It was a very sore point when those were shut down. 38:02 So, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's just stuff like that like yeah, yeah, I could rant about that forever. Well, yeah, I think that you go outdated data or you have like tactics that someone came up with a while ago and then they get old and you got to come up with a new one. 38:18 So it's like the idea of like, PS, I heard this restaurant is good. Like, you know, have you ever been there or whatever those do work 15 years ago? 38:26 Yeah, I know. But here's the thing. You know, there's that quote, like the future is here. it's just not evenly distributed. 38:32 So I think like to take a step back from the space that you and I live in, which is like deeply saturated, very online, little cynical, probably not to put words in your mouth, but my assumption. 38:46 The whole economy's not like that actually. And some of these tactics that you'd see someone on social like, you know, cutting about are crushing in different verticals that are like less online. 39:00 And or in different geographies where there's less saturation. So like I know people that are running campaigns like it's five years ago with language localization and just absolutely printing money in different countries where, you know, these, so I think like, it depends on where you're sitting in 39:19 some cases. And it's not the same everywhere. And you know that, but I'm just saying for the sake of saying it. 39:24 Like there are some exceptional results that we're seeing some people are getting because they're finding again that alpha. Clay has been talking about GTM alpha, but they're finding where there's something that like someone doesn't know that. 39:37 They don't know that about the restaurant thing and they don't know that about whatever tactic. And so they're like, oh, okay, hey, like I've had some people send emails in other languages, like, you know, in Dutch and get replies back. 39:48 I'm like, oh, I think so much for the note, you know, And stuff like that, whereas, you know, not everyone's going to be, maybe that, you know, not it's going to be like that. 39:59 So it depends. It depends on where you're sitting and what industry you're in and what country you're in and what language it's in and some of these things that we know or not, like everyone doesn't know kind of thing. 40:08 Yeah. And I think that's honestly a huge takeaway, which is that, and I have to keep reminding myself of this a lot, which is that I am not necessarily my average customer because I think about this stuff every day of every minute of every week of every year. 40:28 Like, I'm constantly thinking about analytics and metrics and what is the best way to, and 90% of people just are not thinking like that. 40:35 They're, and taking that to outbound, I remember when, you know, your emails always say, hey, Bob, right? If your name's Bob, right? 40:44 And I remember, uh, first time I saw this about 15 years ago, I was blown away. And then in the body of the copy, they would also use the mail merge. 40:52 So it's like, and I'm just saying, this is my friend, Bob, right? And it just, the first time I ever saw that I was like, it's so obvious, but man, it just connects, right? 41:00 And now that's old hat. I see that I'm like, oh, he's just mail merged. But you're exactly right. So many people don't even realize is that you can schedule emails ahead of time, right? 41:12 And load them into a sequence that, yeah, it's, I still remember Patrick McKenzie, you know, Patrick McKenzie, I don't, I don't personally, but I've heard some familiar with his word. 41:24 Yeah, patio 11. Back when he was doing the bingo cards, he had an automated script that sent them the, I think it was weekly or monthly, I can't remember, but essentially it sent like the weekly bingo cards. 41:35 it was handcrafted bingo card sent to all the users every week or whatever. And it was just a random ice script that grabbed one of the bingo card sets that he had made and sent it out to everyone. 41:46 And one time the script failed and was not able to send. And he got a bunch of emails from people being like, we always love your newsletter. 41:56 We're so sad that you didn't send it out today. Hey. Oh my God. And it's just, you're not even if like us, the business came out of our needs and we would be customers of this product. 42:13 If we had not built it, we're still not our customers. Right. Because we are in this every single day in a level that 99% of our customers are not. 42:24 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think like, you know, one thing that's been so interesting to me is like you're here to talk about the mail merge ID and stuff. 42:32 I mean, one area where people are getting really interesting results right now is there's like whole swaths of the economy where they're just like not on social, like at all. 42:40 The company isn't on social, the people aren't on social, they're just like out working like a normal person who's worked for the last however many, you know, however many you think we've been here. 42:52 I mean, millions of years just getting up out of bed, walking out of their house and going and doing something for somebody out in the real world. 42:58 And so, there's like parts of the economy that literally aren't online. I mean, now they may use internally, they may use QuickBooks or something like that. 43:05 Sure, I'm not saying the business is analog, but they're all org chart is not on there. All their, you know, AR and AP clerks aren't on there and stuff like that, you know? 43:16 So, you know, whereas in our space, it's like the companies that we tend to work with, all of them are on social or 99% of them aren't. 43:23 And not only that, all of them have posted probably within the last three months, which is like such, such an exceptionally small part, small rare thing. 43:33 Exactly. You know, whereas in our space, like, you could totally run a play, if I'm running out bound for psychometrics, I could totally reasonably run a play where I go and I scrape the list of all these contacts. 43:43 And then I go scrape their social and I go scrape their last 10 posts. And for, for whatever chunk of the list I can get a post for, I've referenced that their most recent post. 43:54 Whereas for like a whole bunch of companies, like none of those things are true. They're not posting. They don't have an account. 43:59 Their company doesn't have an account. You know what I mean? So it's like, so yeah. This is one of the things. 44:05 So this would be an interesting thing to dive into for a minute, which is that, you know, they always say go where your customers are, right? 44:12 If your customers are on Facebook, you advertise on Facebook, you do outreach on Facebook. If they're on It connected online in the way that we are. 44:27 Is it trade shows? Is it like, what is it? Yeah, so I mean, so we have obviously the exposure people that are doing scaled digital outreach still. 44:35 And so what we see is it's two things. First, you've got to find the people. So they're scraping from unconventional data sources. 44:44 So they're not going to be in ZoomInfo. but if I'm a roofing contractor, I might be on Angie's list. So it's like scraping Angie's list or how's, you know, if I'm thinking about like resident home services or whatever, or it's just like scraping Google Maps. 45:03 So like that's like one thing. It's like you're gonna get out of find, you just gotta find the company at all like where it is and what do they do? 45:11 And like some of them don't have websites but they're doing like $10 million a year in revenue doing roofs, you know, and it's like, if we have a shared customer, if the roofer has a shared customer with us somehow, if we don't do our job or the roofer doesn't do their job, which one do they're going 45:29 to notice first? Probably the roofing. So they're doing a really important work. So you got to start finding the people somehow, and that's where like tools like apify and phantom buster are starting to kind of crack open these different types of data sources, which are really interesting and then it's 45:45 relying on generic info at email addresses or a calling in and that's where people are kind of do that we would have visibility into those kinds of channels but if you had field service rep field sales reps you could knock on doors or whatever but I think the first problem is just finding the companies 46:01 and then depending on what you do then the question is like what channel am I going to use to get in front of them trade shows you mentioned before actually I'm a pretty big believer in trade shows I think they're pretty powerful channel. 46:10 And I think you can do a lot about around trade shows that can get some pretty good results. But yeah, I do kind of like the old school stuff. 46:18 I do think it's nice to meet people and see people and do interesting things. And they remember that. It's hard to fake it, especially if you have a good team. 46:26 Yeah, they out a lot more, I think. Yeah. If you have a good team and you can put your team in front of people, they remember that. 46:31 You know, like, oh, yeah, that person was awesome. Like I love talking to them. You know, people, I think that stuff matters. 46:37 So, yeah, awesome. Well, Harris, thanks so much. I want to, I always close this out with a couple of lightning questions. 46:45 We have gone a little bit long, but so we'll do a couple. But I do want to ask like, are there any unusual metrics that you look at in your business, in your personal workflows or anything like that, that you're always looking at, that you're tracking, that you're saying like, this is something that 46:59 I always try to keep in mind, in life and business and whatever. Um, um, well, this is a lightning question. 47:09 Uh, we can do, we can do, it can be slow lightning. Okay, slow lightning. So I mean, for the business, it's MRR right now every day. 47:16 I'm constantly checking it, checking it constantly and chart mobile. Um, on the support side, this is a little unusual. But some SaaS people are really surprised. 47:22 But we actually do almost all of our support through Slack. Um, customers, yeah, I vastly prefer it. Um, so keeping an eye on my Slack notifications because that's like our support queue. 47:34 like are we getting back to people? I know that I don't know how well it scales or whatever, but it means a lot to our customers and I think it's part of why we're growing as quickly as we are because I think people want to be there and they want feedback there and they won't. 47:45 So that's one that's a little unusual. Everyone talks about their revenue, but I think that one's a little unusual for most companies that are not doing that as much support and it's like as we are. 48:01 So yeah, We have not gone slack for everyone yet, but we do have slack VIPs because there are customers that need more support. 48:10 But man, to do all support and slack, that's, uh, what I found is that they don't actually abuse it. They don't. 48:16 We had the exact same worry, which was that, oh, people are just going, we're just going to be inundated constantly and it's not that bad. 48:24 Yeah. Um, yeah. It's actually, it ends up being a little hurtfully like, oh, I thought you wanted to talk to me more. 48:29 I thought the reason we didn't talk so much in access to me and you're just like just sitting there. Yeah, you can message me anytime. 48:35 What's with the crickets? I'm right here. Don't you want to bother me? Well, Harris, thank you so much for joining me. 48:43 Where can people find you? I'm super active on social. So just my name, Harris Kenney, which I'm sure you can see in the show description or whatever. 48:52 That's the main place or website Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks. Thanks.

Building a SaaS: The Journey of Harris Kenny

Tue, 24 Jun 2025 00:00:00 GMT

I recently joined Justin Jackson on Build Your SaaS to share my real story: the messy path from quitting my job in 2019, starting and shutting down early products, running an agency to stay afloat, and eventually landing on OutboundSync. In this episode, I talk about the trial and error, the highs and lows, and the moment I finally found traction that showed we were onto something. If you’re interested in our company, in the trenches yourself, or thinking about making the leap, I hope my journey gives you a real look behind the scenes at what it took for us to build a profitable SaaS in 2025. Well, from 2020 to 2025. ## Watch ## Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:58 The Journey of Quitting a Job 05:52 Navigating Corporate Structures 08:52 The Transition to Entrepreneurship 14:45 Discovering SaaS and Learning 17:49 Building an Agency and Cold Emailing 24:55 Navigating Agency Challenges 28:24 Identifying Market Gaps 29:21 The First SaaS Attempt 32:58 Lessons from Failed Products 40:58 Exploring New SaaS Ideas 44:13 Navigating App Overload 46:55 The Card Importer Idea 48:02 The Importance of Foundational Work 51:21 The Genesis of Outbound Sync 53:57 Understanding the Market Dynamics 57:57 The Role of Relationships in Business 59:56 The Job to Be Done with Outbound Sync 01:03:16 Transitioning from Services to Software 01:10:23 The Role of Tiny Seed 01:18:53 Iterating on Hypotheses 01:28:10 Embracing the Unknown of the Future of OutboundSync ## Transcript 0:00:00 Hello, and welcome to Build Your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2025. 0:00:08 I'm Justin Jackson co-founder of transistor.fm. And I'm Harris Kenny founder of OutboundSync sync. Yes. Now Harris and I have known each other for a while. 0:00:20 Uh, longtime listener of Build Your SaaS, right? Oh, yeah. And I wanted to have Harrison because he sent me an email with the subject line. 0:00:29 And I did it. I built my SaaS and Harris has been sharing his story with me over the years. I know he's had multiple attempts. 0:00:40 And I think what was exciting to me, Harris, is just, this is hard. Like, doing this, building a SaaS, building a software as a service product and getting it to profitability is really tough and usually takes multiple attempts as we'll hear. 0:01:01 So I wanted to have you on because I think your story will be encouraging to folks who are in it. 0:01:08 Yeah, for sure. Well, I appreciate being on, man. I mean, yeah, I listened to the show for years and so, and yeah, I had a bunch of attempts and always kind of look up to you from afar. 0:01:21 We almost met in person at podcast movement when it was in Denver and we missed. Yeah, how did that because I was looking at that email too and I was like so you had emailed me like oh I'm going to go to podcast moving in Denver and then we just never cross paths. 0:01:34 Well, I was only there for a little bit It was when I was things were really crazy at that time. 0:01:38 Okay I didn't remember what year that was But things were a little crazy at that time Yeah, I didn't have a lot of time. 0:01:46 So I was okay I want to go and I'm like I hope I'll catch Justin Yeah, but if I don't catch him So I just like it was like well what you've talked about for years of just like no margin. 0:01:55 Yeah, I've just been living a no-margin life for a while And so it was one of those situations where I like I was late and I had to leave early and I was I hoped I caught you about a distance Yeah, but like there's a future with more margin where you're like my friends in town I'm gonna go do this thing 0:02:11 and like I have time to do that and I just like haven't haven't had that Yeah, I mean, I think that's gonna resonate with a lot of people as an aside This is something I've been thinking about for a while is you're a part of this mega maker community that I've been running since 2013. 0:02:29 And I'd like to do some more like real life meetups with mega maker folks and maybe I have to take my son to university in Toronto this summer. 0:02:42 So I was thinking, oh, maybe we could do a meet up in Toronto. Where are you based out of, by the way? 0:02:47 I'm based in Denver. You're in Denver. Okay. So yeah, I'm going to try to do some like on both sides of the continent and yeah, hopefully we can still hang out in person. 0:03:00 Definitely. I mean, assuming nothing tragic happens. I mean, I'm here and I would love to. And so I joined Mega Maker but then left. 0:03:07 And I had joined a bunch of things on left, kind of like in the early days. Yeah, and why did you why did you leave you just felt like it was too much? 0:03:15 Not like what what was What was the reason everything? So like I got off Twitter. I left microconf I left Megan. 0:03:22 So I spent a period in the beginning I quit my job in 2019 Yeah, let's go back to that. Okay, 2019 you quit your job quit my job I had had a bunch of bosses and I was my wife and I were thinking about starting a family and having kids and I just like couldn't envision being able to do the things I would 0:03:42 want to do as a husband and dad in these work environments I'd had for the previous decade. Just because they were, it was long hours or stress. 0:03:51 Just not like, well, not a flexibility. It's like, you know, and like, well, what if I need to go to an appointment and the boss that I had at a time was, it's like, well, we don't really want you here. 0:04:01 It's like, well, yeah, but like, I can just like do this stuff later on my computer. Like, it's not. Yeah. 0:04:07 And I just didn't feel like I would be able to do it the way I wanted to be. I remember like, I had a great, like when I got into tech in 2008. 0:04:18 I had a great boss. But even then, I remember there being some things that graded on me. One was, I didn't like other people looking at my screen while I was working, like because in truthfulness, this, like my day now, if you looked at my screen, you might not have any idea of what I'm doing, you know 0:04:45 , it could look like I'm wasting my time, it could look like I'm just sitting there thinking. A lot of my time these days is spent thinking. 0:04:54 And I, so I didn't like people looking at my screen. And my joke back then was if I kept Excel open on my screen all day, people would assume that I'm working in productive, but I could be doing absolutely nothing, right? 0:05:09 And then the second thing was I just, it felt so not humiliating, but to ask for time off, always felt like this, like, I'd prostrate myself in front of, like, can I please have some time off? 0:05:25 And it just always felt like, why do I have to ask for permission? I want to be in a position where I don't have to ask for permission to, you know, take some time off or whatever. 0:05:36 Well, do you remember Shawshank Redemption? You ever said movie? Mm-hmm. You know what? Like after they leave and they're out, sorry, spoiler alert. 0:05:44 Yeah, yeah, spoiler alert. It's like 20 years old, but spoiler alert, if you haven't seen it yet. You know, they have a hard time, like going to the bathroom because they're so used to like asking for permission, you know? 0:05:53 They're like, we know and they're like, I just like reminds me of that. And yeah, I mean, I felt like, It just felt arbitrary. 0:05:59 I mean, I was in a role where I was at that in that in that position Performance-based part part of it was like commission or performance kicker based on the team meeting at sales goals But nobody else was yeah, so like I would need things. 0:06:12 I would be like hey, like Could we get this could I get like I just did a Case study with a customer. 0:06:18 Yeah, can I have can I put it on the website somewhere? Yeah, and the web teams like yeah We don't have like time for that. 0:06:23 I'm like okay, but I need to be able to share it with people. Yeah Yeah, so then I ended up putting it up on GitHub or something. 0:06:32 And then they linked the GitHub thing from the support center because the support team was really to let me put it in there. 0:06:38 And it was like, why is this so hard? And it was like, hey, I want data about who we've sold to. 0:06:46 And they were like, yeah, our system doesn't really, like it's in there, but there's no UI. So I had done a little bit of SQL and database stuff in business school. 0:06:53 So anyway, so I was just downloaded like DB VR. and I was doing my own SQL queries, doing all of this stuff when it's like, this is definitely the DNA of entrepreneur. 0:07:01 I think like there's that feeling of, it's not truly oppressive, but there's these corporate structures that can just feel like they're gating you in. 0:07:12 And if you're a fast horse and you just wanna run, this feeling of being gated in is such a frustrating feeling. 0:07:20 Like, and good companies and good teams, I think we'll reward that behavior, that kind of taking initiative, and I'm going to make sure this happens, or here's a great suggestion, or like, let's do this. 0:07:37 And I think kind of old oppressive teams will, they just kind of suffocate or suppress you or make it harder for you to contribute in a meaningful way. 0:07:50 That's how I felt. Yeah. Like I think that like the company was well-run and profitable and doing well and so I was like this is probably a me thing but I was like look I've had like a few jobs at this point like at some point maybe I'm the problem here and like maybe I need to do the different thing 0:08:07 because it's like nothing that they were doing there was like obviously on its face like how could you how dare you know it wasn't it was just like grading it just felt like suffocating but yeah but it made sense like yeah this isn't the web team's problem. 0:08:21 It's not that big of a deal, like, sorry, it's not a priority. But anyway. Oh, yeah, I think this is the, I think this is the realization is it's if you're a fast horse and you want to run, there's just some structures that aren't going to be work for you and that's fine. 0:08:42 Like if, if the boss or the team or the culture or the business model or the market Just necessitates something else Like if you really want to remote job, but the company is really a on-prem Culture and you know, you need to be there. 0:09:02 Well, you're just not the right fit for that place Totally. I think what drives a lot of founders is That feeling of you know what? 0:09:12 I'm never gonna be really I mean, we're never really satisfied at all but I'm never going to like really be kind of in my zone of genius until I'm able to be doing this on my own. 0:09:25 Like nothing will satisfy this itch until I'm in charge and I'm cognizant and I'm it's all reliant on me but yeah. 0:09:36 That's what I was that's definitely it right yeah. So I was like Okay, I said if I can get a project for 50% of my income. 0:09:47 So at the time, we had had our first house, we had our first mortgage. But that was like, so I didn't need a W2 to get a proof of the mortgage. 0:09:58 Yeah, that's a key point. Yeah, always get your mortgage before you quit your job. Definitely. Because you can always drive Uber. 0:10:08 But they're not going to approve you if you're driving over but, you know, there's like a difference between showing you make money and actually be able to make the money, right? 0:10:14 Yeah. Or whatever your right share of choices. Yeah. So or whatever door dash. So I was like, okay, we have the house. 0:10:26 My wife was finishing her PhD. And which was like itself a long journey. and I was supporting throughout which happy to do, like more than happy to do, but just like kind of the financial realities in situation and we hadn't had kids yet. 0:10:41 So it felt like, okay, this is the window. Yeah, if I can get half of my current pay in contracts or projects, I will quit my job. 0:10:49 Mm-hmm. And I had built up a pretty good network from my previous jobs. Mm-hmm. I helped scale a 3D printer company from 14 to 2019. 0:11:01 We'd gone from $1.7 to $20 million in revenue. That's like a hardware manufacturer. It was really hard, but I learned a lot and I met a lot of people because there's a really high visibility thing. 0:11:11 So anyway, that's a whole other story for another day. But I had this other job in the meantime and work to my network. 0:11:18 And I got my commitments basically. So I graduated on April 1, 2019. I got my commitments. I quit my job, May 1. 0:11:25 And these were commitments for projects? Like you were clients? Oh, okay, so you emailed a bunch of people said hey, I'm looking to make the jump Yeah, I need some clients will you be my client exactly and you got commitments from enough of them that you felt like Okay, I could and what do those commitments 0:11:44 look like like there was just a pipeline of work like you had Well, they work or let's do it like signed closed contract signed. 0:11:51 We're gonna start next week So I was like, okay, I'll I'll work weird hours. I'll make this work until I can get to 50% got it. 0:11:58 I waited till people were like, okay, we're going, we'll pay you kind of thing. Did you have a goal in mind? 0:12:03 Like, I need to get this number of people on retainer or it was just half of my income. I forget exactly what my income was at the time. 0:12:09 Yeah. But it was just half. I figured if I could get to half, then I could get the other half. 0:12:13 It's what my guess was. Yeah. So I, so one contract, basically one contract was enough, but it was only a two month contract. 0:12:22 So I was like, okay, I've got two months of half my income. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, I quit my job and I figured once I quit I would and I talked to some other kind of a mentor type people at the time And I thought like once I quit I'm gonna unlock 40 hours a week of time. 0:12:36 Yeah, and so like I'll be able to do way Way more with that time So and that was right by the end of June or by the end of May by the time I got to June So I was I was back to my old income within a month. 0:12:46 Oh wow. Yeah, I was like, oh, okay Okay, okay, and and and it was just me in my house with one laptop So it was like all profit margin with no expenses and so it was a really good start. 0:12:55 Yeah, but that drive some people Quit their job. They have all this extra time And they find it's actually the opposite without somebody driving them without somebody pushing them They Don't have that relentlessness you need To go out and find clients. 0:13:17 Yeah, and I think that's a good litmus test is like, once you have the time, do you have the drive? 0:13:26 Like there was times where, you know, like after I'd quit my job, there was times where, for example, course sales were like enough. 0:13:38 And I was like, I gotta go build some WordPress websites for people. And it's just this like dogged, relentless drive to say, I'm gonna do whatever it takes. 0:13:51 I'm going to email a hundred people until I sell, you know, 10 website contracts and I'm going to build them all and then, you know, live to see another day. 0:14:01 Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I think the anticipation of like that we would be starting our family, I mean, our, let me think about the timeline here, this was from my teen. 0:14:16 So like within a year or so, our daughter was born. And so I think that was like, I had this in my head of like, I gotta, I gotta kind of get this thing off the ground. 0:14:24 Yeah, um, because things are, so that was to me was a big moment. I can't like, I can't disentangle that. 0:14:29 Yeah, yeah. Dependence is a huge, that's true actually. Like, before I had kids, I didn't have that same drive that I did after once I realized, wow, this is, um, this is expensive. 0:14:45 This is just like, just keeps going up. Yeah. And expensive in a sense, like it's expensive with your time, your energy, but your money. 0:14:53 It's just like you can't just live in a one bedroom condo anymore. You've got to, you've got to get more space. 0:15:00 You got to get a car. You got to get a car seat. Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, there's just hard, hard cash flow hits that come with that. 0:15:06 Yeah. So, so 2019, you, you launched this, you get some clients. COVID hit in 2020. So, Yeah, what what did that affect you at all or what yeah? 0:15:19 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So terrible timing Just couldn't have really couldn't have done it worse in a lot of ways Why cuz it it affected it Oh, it was just so stressful And then we were expecting at the time. 0:15:32 Yeah, so like you know every time I got to the I mean in the beginning It was really unknown and then especially because we were expecting during that time. 0:15:39 It was really anxiety and do sing. And I think the biggest thing I realized was like, what if I get sick? 0:15:48 So I had these clients and it's going well, but like they're just really paying me to talk to them. Yeah. 0:15:53 About stuff. Yeah. And like we're getting some results definitely. But like a lot of this business is just like I've been doing this in I was working with a lot of hardware companies at the time. 0:16:02 So I just had a lot of like offhand things of like, oh, well, you should talk to this distributor. They would like totally pick that up. 0:16:07 And like I knew that because I had been doing it for seven in your six years. Yeah. So that was like worth it for them. 0:16:13 Yeah. But I was like, what if I get sick and I can't take that call? Yeah. Like, are they going to keep paying me? 0:16:17 Probably not. Yeah. So it felt very fragile. And so this is when I started discovering and I joined, I forget the exact date, but like I joined MegaMaker and I started to listen to Build your SaaS and start up to the rest of us and I joined the microconf. 0:16:33 Were you familiar with software as a service or web apps or was that, you came from like a world where you're selling hardware. 0:16:41 Yeah, I was, I didn't have software background. I mean, I didn't like ERP consulting in 2013 as a, as a count executive. 0:16:48 I mean, so no, I mean, I never worked for a SaaS company at all. I never worked for a company that had a dollar in SaaS revenue. 0:16:56 How did it even come on your radar? Like, how did you, like, I found Rob Walling stuff first and that tipping off in SaaS and then I found build your SaaS and transistor. 0:17:06 And then it just kind of like was like because because what I wanted was like to take care of my family and to build and to build a good business So then it's like yeah, what kind of business? 0:17:14 And so because of like the pressures of COVID and family and like I'm in my late 30s right now. Yeah, so and I'd like finished business school I like I had I think very compressed learning cycles. 0:17:26 Yeah, like Very quickly like this is a good idea. Let's go. Okay, but it can be better and just like I didn't It's taken a long time to get here, but within this, there's been like really tight learning loops. 0:17:37 Yeah. And then it was like, oh, like this is it. Like I went out to work on my own, because I want my own business, because I want to be present. 0:17:43 It's dad and private family. And like, this is the best way to do it. It is a SaaS. I need to figure out how to have a SaaS somehow. 0:17:50 I mean, it doesn't seem that long. And if you think about it, it's been six years. Yeah. It's been six, five or six years since you even kind of realized what the SaaS market industry, category, how it works. 0:18:04 So that's pretty compressed. Yeah, I mean, I guess in hindsight, yeah, it feels like a long time. It feels like a long time. 0:18:13 But I mean, once we once when once once that my actual idea hit, it was like, it took off really quickly. 0:18:20 So it's a lot of tight hard learning. And then but but like having to maintain cash flow the whole time. 0:18:25 Yeah, there's no like, oh, I'm going to want the sabbatical and think about it. It was like, I'm staying up late to try to figure out how to do this thing because during the day, I'm going to client calls and stuff. 0:18:34 I think what's interesting is that poll that you just described. I think is quite common for people investigating, especially this space because that was always the promise is like, okay, what do I desire? 0:18:50 Well, I don't want to work a job. I then you try consulting and you're like, okay, consulting works, but you have to keep this thing every sales cycle is, you're starting from zero again. 0:19:02 I mean, it's not really zero, but it can feel like that. Oh, no, definitely. Yeah, I mean, basically is, unless you start developing IP and, you know. 0:19:11 Yeah, I mean, I guess the reason I say it's not always from zero, because you still have your network, like you still have former clients, you can go back to you and say, hey, let's do another engagement or whatever, but it can feel like you're always starting from zero. 0:19:24 And then there's the stress of that and like delivering projects on time and, you know, and like even like having to wake up early, I had to wake up early and do calls with people in Sweden. 0:19:36 So it was like, I had to wake up at 4 a.m. or something. I was like, oh, this is tough. 0:19:41 And so then you search for, okay, what are some of other options? And you're like, oh, recurring revenue. Like if I could just have, you know, instead of having to rebuild that every sales cycle, every month or every quarter, just every month, new stuff can come in and then you go look for solutions 0:19:59 and it's like, oh, I could build a SaaS business. Exactly. So that's how I kind of land on it. But then I'm like, okay, I got to learn about SaaS. 0:20:08 You join all these things. And I'm like super active on Twitter at the time, just like absorbing, absorbing, absorbing. And I feel like I was just in like just downloading, just constantly downloading little things and thinking about surfing and these are all these analogies and the stair set method 0:20:25 and but I think in general what I was feeling was like okay this is like too much learning. I need to be like doing now. 0:20:39 I need to like start like testing ideas. I'm like where is this idea going to come from? Um, yeah, can I turn this consulting business into maybe something that's like a little bit more of an engine so I can free up, make more money or just free up a little bit more time. 0:20:53 Mm-hmm. So it kind of converted into a little bit more of an agency because at the time, like email deliverability started to become like a little bit of an issue discussed in some of these corners of the web. 0:21:05 And most of my clients, they didn't, they wanted to talk to me. But if they were really hard like and clear, they would say, well, I want leads. 0:21:12 Yeah. Yeah, like yeah, like I'm talking to you and I like your advice and there's some really good ideas in here But like ultimately, what do we need? 0:21:18 We need new leads for our business. Yeah, can you get us leads? Yeah, I had never done that before The companies I'd work with in hardware it's different the go-to market is really different Yeah, and so I just started learning cold email I bought a cold email course for like a hundred bucks Okay, and 0:21:33 so I started learning cold email and started building an agency around outreach Yeah, as like an extension of this consulting service And so then I started getting really deep in that into that world and we became a HubSpot solutions partner and we were doing outbound and then then I like the the landscape 0:21:49 started to like sort of emerge of like okay these are the tools I'm using these are gaps between these tools this is how they charge this is like what's annoying and then within that I had had like a few different ideas but so I left the communities and stuff not because I didn't like them but because 0:22:04 it was like what I need next is not here yeah what I need next is out somewhere in the market and like nobody here is going to be the one who's going to be my first customer or and so and so and I only have so many and at this point my daughter was born as I was like okay I don't know that much time 0:22:20 so I got to go and so I like I literally deleted Twitter I literally left like everything did I just started spending like all this time on social yeah and and to kind of like so that was kind of that like that like transition period in the beginning of what was like testing ideas of it. 0:22:35 So, this is so key. Like, there's a, you're going to need some foundation of knowledge. But after you've got a reasonable foundation, you need to go out and do stuff. 0:22:52 You need to go out and start building things. And I felt this like, I started the product people podcast in 2012. 0:23:03 And, you know, after a year of doing these interviews, I felt like I got to stop doing these interviews and I've got to do something. 0:23:14 Like, I got to launch something. Exactly the same as you. Like, ah, this is until I start putting this into practice and really feeling it, it's just like anything. 0:23:26 It's like I can describe to you the mechanics of snowboarding. But until I get you out on the hill and you start to actually try it out, the head knowledge is fine. 0:23:39 Like for you to have the basics, but you need to start, you know, you need to just start going down the hill at some point. 0:23:46 Yeah, exactly. You got to land on your butt and be like, okay, yeah, that was fine. So that's, I think that's great that you had that self-knowledge probably driven by the fact that you didn't have very much time. 0:23:56 That was it. It was like oh man, and it was kind of like a little sad because it was like oh like this is fun Like I'm like talking to these people like this is funny. 0:24:05 This is my community. I'm home alone. Yeah I have no real co-workers. I Like all my friends have jobs and then we have a young kid and so I don't have a lot of time in general like when I'm not working I'm trying to be a dad as best I can trying to be a husband. 0:24:19 Yeah, and so So it was like a little sad, honestly, but but I just didn't feel like I had that like All of these things, I felt like I didn't have a really good alternative. 0:24:30 I just felt like I've got to do this. If I want to move forward, I have to make some changes here, and it's going to be a little uncomfortable, but I just don't, what's the alternative? 0:24:41 Yeah. Okay. So you get this agency going. Agency's going. And it's working? Or what happened? Like it's working. It's working. 0:24:48 I'm acquiring customers, like I'm starting to like feel what it's like to get on a wave a little bit. Because with my consulting, like, I had this feeling of like, yeah, I've got these relationships, but like, I don't have that many relationships. 0:25:02 At some point, this is going to go away and then what? Yeah. But now with the agency, it was like, oh, this is a problem. 0:25:07 People are landing in spam. The new leads, like, I can productize around this. There's some tooling around this. Like, and so it was working. 0:25:14 I was getting customers, retaining customers. It wasn't taking off because it was me. I had contractors who some of whom were really wonderful. 0:25:21 But like, I was never able to fully delegate. Yeah, it had these ebbs and flows as I tried to balance sales and delivery, but then, and this is like the worst, you're not supposed to do this, this is like the worst advice. 0:25:34 I think maybe the lowest paying client I ever had in the history of my agency. I mean, I have to go back and check that. 0:25:41 I mean, he was paying me almost nothing. Yeah, because some months are like, sure, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you exactly got a hustle. 0:25:48 Um, he was like, you know, I really want this, um, cold email data from smart lead. I really want it in HubSpot. 0:25:54 Hmm. And I was like, oh, yeah, like we're upstart hunger. Um, everyone in HubSpot always talks about inbound inbound in bound. 0:26:03 Yeah. Um, in fact, everyone in the HubSpot ecosystem is constantly like, at this time, really posturing against outbound. Like that's the whole positioning of HubSpot is inbound. 0:26:13 So they're constantly criticizing it. And I was like, well, that's kind of an interesting thing to be like like the outbound person in HubSpot system, like nobody's saying that, and then it made sense to me. 0:26:24 Like, well, yeah, of course you would want this there. Yeah, you get a lead and then you need to manage it and they become a deal and then you close the deal and then they become a customer like, yeah. 0:26:33 Yeah, right, like duh. Why isn't anybody doing that? And what I didn't realize at the time, but I now realize is that like, these tools were very like on the edge. 0:26:41 They were like growth hacking tools and bigger companies that had those requirements weren't using them. or they weren't using them like they used the rest of their tools. 0:26:49 So it was like a bet basically at the time of like if this way of generating new leads takes off, then new tools will be required to like coordinate or orchestrate the new tools with the old tools if it takes off. 0:27:07 Okay, so a client is paying you to help them manage, when you say outbound, you're talking about sending cold email, trying to get leads and this client says, this is good. 0:27:21 They weren't paying, they weren't a high value customer, but they said, this is good. I really want this, like once you get me a lead, I want this to move into HubSpot, which I'm using as my CRM. 0:27:34 And then as you were looking at HubSpot, you're like, oh, this is weird, because HubSpot's whole philosophy was all around content. 0:27:42 Like you use content to attract leads. So there are inbound leads, they sign up on your blog posts, because to get the PDF. 0:27:51 And then you manage the relationship that way. But not a lot of people using HubSpot were starting with outbound. Yeah. 0:28:00 Yeah. At least not publicly. Yeah. But then I realized like actually quite a few of our household clients are doing outbound. 0:28:06 Yes. And actually house bought themselves has a huge sales team yeah with like a few hundred sales people and they totally do outbound yeah so this seems like a gap like this is an opportunity exactly yeah so what did that translate into what what did you do with that information um so well i so i started 0:28:27 to build something so i started to build it in make.com okay um smartly had web hooks and i thought okay well i can take these webhook payloads like as these events occur in smart lead an email is sent to reply as received. 0:28:40 As these happen, I can take those events, map them and push them to HubSpot. Okay. Like I remember saying how hard could it be? 0:28:49 You know? There's this quote, we do things not because they're easy, but because we thought they would be easy. That's the entrepreneur's mantra. 0:29:01 Yeah. So that was it. The pinboard, the pinboard guy said that. It's I think about it. It's on my social. 0:29:07 I think about it all the time. I remember literally being like, Oh yeah, like, how are you going to be? 0:29:10 And I said that to him. And so jeep. So this is um, um, May 2023. So, uh, okay. Did we miss a part here because you did try to build intro CRM? 0:29:21 Oh, yes. So my agency was called intro CRM. Okay. Sorry. I covered some of the, I miss, I skipped some of the SaaS stuff because it was never a SaaS. 0:29:29 Okay. I tried doing intro CRM as a SaaS. And now my agency just became intro CRM. But we never, I never had a single paying customer, I built something in bubble. 0:29:37 Oh man, sorry, I forgot. I haven't thought about that in like, in like a while. That's okay. Yeah, yeah. So you're first so bad. 0:29:44 I don't even remember it. Your first attempt was a CRM. Yes. So you were doing this agency and then you're like, okay, I'm going to try to build some software. 0:29:51 Yes, right. And then you built this tool called InterCRM in bubble, but it didn't really take off. It didn't really work. 0:30:00 No, not at all. So it was like, like my thought was like I was using base camp. Oh, man, sorry. 0:30:04 Oh, man, totally based on this chapter. Mm-hmm. Um, so I was using base camp. And I was like, Oh, base camp, they're discontinuing high rise. 0:30:11 Like there's no CRM, like base camp, and they're not doing high rise anymore. There should be a simple CRM for everybody. 0:30:17 Yeah, everybody can use this opportunity. And I mean, high rise was, I think doing, I don't know, three to five million a year or something like that. 0:30:24 Like it was, it was a on base camp scale. It wasn't successful, successful quote, but for most of us, that would be an amazing business. 0:30:33 Exactly. And I thought, like, okay, and I really looked up to Jason Fried and David Heiner-Hanson and part of my idea of like going from agency to SaaS was like exactly what they had done. 0:30:42 So they were really influential in my mind at the time of like, you know, I think they, yeah. I think that they, I don't know, it's hard to know. 0:30:52 When I'm being like self-critical, I would say, well, they were really, they were really running a design agency. They were really craft people. 0:30:57 And you know, what was I doing? But I think I'm probably being a little hard on myself. I think like I was doing hard stuff and I think it ultimately has translated into a good product. 0:31:05 And so it's like sometimes it's hard when you see these people from afar. You kind of yeah, it feels like unattainable of like, but they're just normal guys too working hard and doing great things. 0:31:14 But they're, you know, just people too. In hindsight, I feel like I created too much distance in my mind between what they were to do and what I would be able to do. 0:31:23 You know, yeah, they're just humans too. I mean, they are very gifted in many ways. But the Um, they, uh, earlier in my career, I applied for a job there and flew to Chicago and, um, spent a day with the team. 0:31:39 And that was my sense after that day was I had like kind of put them up on a pedestal, but then after spending a day with them, I'm like, oh, these are just human beings. 0:31:47 Like, they're, there's, they are, again, they are good at what they do. They're skilled. Um, but there wasn't, it wasn't like magical. 0:31:58 It was just like, these are just people doing work. And they've achieved something probably be like the first ones to say that, right? 0:32:05 Yeah. Yeah, I think I'd be like, I mean, I don't think, you know, they just had to have a brand. 0:32:09 They did it early. They've done it at an incredible scale. And I think. So yes, so interest CRM was my first SaaS idea. 0:32:18 I built it with bubble myself. I got help from, so my first idea was in integration. I was like, okay, so there should be a CRM that integrates with base camp. 0:32:29 Because I thought the first tool that people adopt is project management software. Yeah, because like you have a couple of clients and you don't need a CRM yet. 0:32:37 So you start with project management software, like Trello or Basecamp and then you start to get more clients And then you realize, oh, I kind of have to manage these leads. 0:32:44 I need to CRM. And so my thought was the first thing that should integrate should be the CRM, but the core system of record is actually the project management tool and they kind of go back and forth. 0:32:52 So that was my first idea. And so I had Lola, Lunchpile Labs. She built the integration for me. We integrated with Trello and Basecamp. 0:33:01 And, oh gosh, I can't remember it now, but there was, I think, maybe a third project management tool that we integrated with. 0:33:07 Because I was working with all these founders and they were in project management tools all day. Oh, yeah, like so they would maybe use this and they're not using HubSpot because it's too bloated. 0:33:14 Yeah, and there's too much to do And so you tried to sell it to first but it just didn't work I was like well, so we like we have this basic CRM and it comes with these services. 0:33:23 Okay, and they were like we just we just want to work with you We don't we don't want your CRM got it so then so when you pitched people on it. 0:33:31 Yeah, they were like Like we just want the services part. Yeah Why do you think they didn't want the CRM? 0:33:38 Like, what were they using instead? They just like didn't check it, didn't log into it. I had like an amazing client and she was just very kind. 0:33:47 And I felt like if anyone she would have just like logged in just out of like curiosity and sympathy and pity. 0:33:54 And even she had never logged in. So I was like, okay, this like nobody cares about this. Yeah. Do you think it was, I mean, this is what's interesting to me. 0:34:03 oops, I'm gonna here I'll just share this for anyone watching I can show the the original kind of website you had here oh yeah oh my gosh yeah I haven't seen this in so long so I mean it to me I think what's interesting about this is your hypothesis seems reasonable and so then you know there's different 0:34:28 questions is it is it the way you're marketing it is the way you're positioning it, is it the actual product isn't solid? 0:34:36 So those folks that weren't logging in, what were they doing instead? Like what were they using instead of your CRM? 0:34:44 Were they just using no CRM? Like there wasn't actually any movement there? Yeah, they would like use nothing or they would use a Google sheet or they would just kind of manage it out of their inbox. 0:34:54 I think there's like a version of this but I don't think I have found a market fit to build it. 0:34:59 it has to be like a product-led thing. It would have to be like, you just drop in and like, now, with AI and these AI native tools, I could imagine there being a CRM that connects with Gmail. 0:35:13 And it's like, and if your business is small and simple enough, if it connects to your calendar and your inbox, it will maintain their data model for you and create little deals for you. 0:35:23 I could actually see that today. Yeah. And that would be good enough for this kind of user because the problem is the entry, like logging in, logging out, updating fields, like nobody, it just wasn't worth their time to do it. 0:35:34 Like, yeah, yeah. And then they got big enough, they hired somebody to do it. Yeah. And then that person wanted a real tool. 0:35:41 Yeah. And then they would, so so you were in this kind of in between, yeah, intro serum as a software product was like in an in between state. 0:35:50 Yeah. That was like not quite right. Yeah. It just didn't quite land. But But I was right that people, like the core idea of like these things don't talk to each other. 0:36:01 Yeah. That has like a thread that has been true for a while. And like even back to the 3D printing company, and even back to the ERP consultant company, like partnerships has been like the thread of growth through like 15 years of my career through the companies that I've grown. 0:36:15 Yeah. That is like a continuity thing. Yeah. Like the idea of like these things don't talk to each other. That is now fundamentally what Abund think is built on today. 0:36:22 I think that is such a crucial observation. It doesn't mean your hypotheses will always be correct, but that alone is just true. 0:36:35 And in an AI world, I feel like that's more true than ever. Like everybody's typing into chat GPT and Claude, but there's still not a lot of glue between like Claude could tell you to go do something. 0:36:51 But then you've got to, there's this chasm that you've got to, you've got to jump over you, you're the one that's got to go do what it just told you to do. 0:37:00 Yeah, and there's going to be more and more glue needed between these things. Yes. And I think there's going to be a lot of opportunity just in that. 0:37:09 And even, you know, like Zapier integrations break all the time or they're not quite right or there's just all of these holes, all of these little opportunities, all of these little friction points where it's like, ah, like another one I've observed is if you go to a retail store, I would ask owners 0:37:28 about what they were doing and they're still entering inventory manually. And you'd think a man, like there's a bar code on every product they get in, and you'd think that or you'd think that the supplier or the distributor could just send them some sort of JSON, some sort of data that would just populate 0:37:48 their point of sale system, but still in 2025 and still with modern point of sales like Square, they're still entering data in manually. 0:37:59 And again, maybe there's not enough money there or friction, like the economics of all that of the opportunity might not be there, but the thread is correct. 0:38:11 And I think you've identified like there's going to still, there's still so much manual data entry right now. There's, there's lots of opportunities here if you're like looking. 0:38:23 I think so. Absolutely. And here's the thing. So someone would say, well, yeah, of course, you got to enter this thing into Clawed and then you got to go to the other thing. 0:38:30 Well, that's where MCP servers come in. And that's why, you know, agentech work flows are so exciting. Yeah. Look, the, I mean, ask any developer. 0:38:39 Hey, um, so tomorrow, I'm going to publish our database schema. No, nothing will be lost. No security issues. I'm just going to publish it and post it online. 0:38:49 And like, do you, do you be proud of that? Do you have any issues? maybe with the tables and the labels. 0:38:55 Do you feel like our database is well-documented, if you were to get hit by a bus tomorrow? Yeah. I mean, how many developers would be like, yeah, no problem? 0:39:01 Yeah. Open Kamano, let's, like, let the world see. And so if that's the case, if the developer who's building and maintaining a code doesn't feel like it's exceptionally well-documented to them, then that is clogging a node to do. 0:39:11 Yeah. It's going to stumble. It's going to stumble in the tables and it's going to stumble in the, and you can say, well, they'll figure it out. 0:39:16 Wow. Yeah. So all these nuances, especially like when you get to the edge cases, and the edge cases are sometimes what matter the most. 0:39:21 I think this is what's real. This is why every time I look at a demo, like somebody releases some sort of demo, it's like, okay, this is not a real company, this is not a real use case, this is not, nothing, this is all fantasy, but, you know, come into my world, and it's even like the, like right now 0:39:43 , when I am trying to level audio, I use this tool called eulene audio meter or whatever. It tells me the loudness in loops. 0:39:55 But then I take a screenshot of that, bring it into Claude, then give it the, there's these built in Apple audio filters. 0:40:06 I say, here's the audio filter AU Dynamics. Tell me what to use here, like how much gain, how much release time, all that stuff. 0:40:15 That is friction, and you think, you know, there's a modern world, like maybe with Apple shortcuts I could do something, or maybe, and the truth is it's still a lot of friction to get something from one system to another. 0:40:31 And for most users, that still exists. And there's just a lot of opportunity there, like if there was a tool that, in my case, like maybe a web app or something that automatically gave me a loudness score for my raw audio and then told me what to do or just automatically did it for me, I might pay for 0:40:58 that, right? So yeah, it's interesting, but on the other hand, maybe I wouldn't discover problems. Yeah, well, that's where it gets complicated. 0:41:06 Yeah, but no, I think that with AI, I mean, imagine if you had a library, you know, like a physical library, but like no card cab long. 0:41:15 Yeah, yeah, it's like, okay, well how are you going to find the book? And I mean, at some point you're expending. 0:41:20 And this is the thing I think people aren't talking about. They say, oh, this is the worst. It's never going to be. 0:41:23 It's always going to get better. Like, well, maybe there's also like a lot of money being spent right now. And like, at some point, there's going to need to be a return on these things. 0:41:31 And at some point, they're going to start charging more. And so, yes, I understand that in theory, things will get better. 0:41:36 But like, nothing gets better forever. Yeah, I mean, the only thing that grows infinitely is cancer ourselves. Yeah, you know, and then you have like system collapse. 0:41:43 So it's just like I like AI We use it. I tried building a GPT wrapper. So yeah, those other SaaS ideas. 0:41:49 So yeah, just CRM didn't work But then I got into this they wanted the service So I did the service and then they said okay, well, I'm giving them lead lists to give me feedback to score them So I can make them better lists better fits. 0:42:02 Yeah, because I'm using like database tools like zoom info and Apollo And I'm giving them Google sheets and so I was like, oh, this is a SaaS I built it with glide, I give you like a sample set of leads, you can swipe through it like a dating app, say which ones you like, say which ones you don't, I'm 0:42:21 going to take that feedback and I'm going to go build a better list. That also seems like a good idea. 0:42:26 Yeah, it wasn't like the worst, you know, I mean, it's kind of like LLM concept, right? It's like reinforcement training from the person who knows. 0:42:36 It took a lot of work and again, they weren't spending the time on it, I don't know. It's just for whatever reason, it didn't quite click, people didn't want to do it. 0:42:46 Or they were just getting too lost in the weeds. And I was like, yeah, I understand what you're saying. But we just need to send some email. 0:42:53 And if it's not a fit, they just won't get back to us. It's okay. Yeah. It's not to be perfect. 0:42:57 So I don't know. You know, that's such an interesting thought I just had. Because you've mentioned this twice now, which is like they couldn't take the time or make the effort to log in, or they couldn't take the time or make the effort to log in in this case, score some leads or whatever. 0:43:15 Yeah. I think there, this happens a lot more than we realize, which is there's just a certain category of applications, questions where you're not going to get people to log in and that's difficult. 0:43:35 It's like I'll use this as an example. I actually love this tool and I pay for this tool, but I think it's still a good example is SEOTesting.com. 0:43:45 I love this product. You know, they're friends of mine. I think it's a great product, but my interaction with the product is basically at this point, 95% just through the emails they send me of here's this month's top keywords, here's the winners and losers. 0:44:04 Am I setting up a lot of SEO tests? Not really. And that's I think that because there's just only so many apps I can log into regularly. 0:44:18 Right. And even like, like, oh, I've got these analytics. Like, you're going to log in and get these analytics. It's like, well, the only apps I really do that for is like revenue analytics because money is important. 0:44:34 And then kind of performance-based metrics on content, like, you know, blog, like, you know, website analytics and podcast analytics and YouTube analytics. 0:44:45 I'll look at all of those. But anything outside of that is just like, oh, you want me to log in and score a bunch of leads. 0:44:53 It's like that seems like a good idea in as a concept. Like, yeah, I would like to do that. I would like to get better leads. 0:45:00 And yeah, I could see even a fun interface, like a dating app, like I could see myself doing that. But at the end of the day, it's another thing to log into. 0:45:10 Exactly. I only have so many spaces in my life for things that I log into. Exactly. Yeah, that's Yeah, so it just like it didn't it didn't quite click. 0:45:21 Um, it was so then the third idea that I had was draft studio. This was like an early G G P T wrapper product. 0:45:27 I actually use it internally. So in cold email, there's this thing called spin tax where you give it a word and then you give it variations of that word. 0:45:35 So hello, hi, hey, hey there. Greetings. Good morning. Good afternoon, whatever. Yeah, and so you could like take an email or you could take a phrase drop it into draft studio It would spin up permutations of that and then spit out spin tax that you could just drop into smartly So that your emails would 0:45:50 be different from each other, which would help with deliverability. Yeah, actually I liked it I used it a lot. It was useful as AI has accelerated and it's just like made some of these things less necessary now people are making fully unique emails every time, just like, I just kind of knew it didn't 0:46:06 have a long-term potential. I liked it as an app and I used it a lot. I did have a few people who used it a lot and liked it too. 0:46:12 Yeah, but it was just, it was just a, as a GPC wrapper, it was too simple to really go anywhere. 0:46:19 And I kind of always knew that. Yeah, and that also seems like the kind of thing that eventually, if I could figure out a process for doing that in chat GBT or cloud, I would just do that. 0:46:30 Totally, yeah, so like that but it was okay, but it was technically a SaaS I built it in glide I thought about charging for it And then and then so so that all of those things happened between like when interest CRM I registered that domain in 2020. 0:46:44 Yeah, and then I started building up on sink in May 2023 Okay, so that was I think it was my fourth idea My fifth idea which I've like almost not really talked about very much, but it was Card importer. 0:46:56 There was like the hotspots default card importers actually really not great Okay, and so it was like a really basic take a picture of your business card skins in the hotspot It's actually a really big like it's a thing. 0:47:06 There's a lot of hotspot comments and forum about wanting these features I posted YouTube video. I still get messages on social about it. 0:47:13 Yeah, I mean like hey his card reporter like still available Yeah, I actually think it like there's something but it's not a it was my fifth idea and app on seeing was taking off So I just didn't do anything with it, but of the idea is it was probably my second best Idea, but it would need more around 0:47:28 it um, to like become something. Yeah, but I guess my point is like, not all of my ideas were bad. 0:47:35 Yeah, I mean, I think that's what's interesting is none of these ideas actually seem bad. They all seem like reasonable bets and it's kind of like you can follow all of the advice for looking for business ideas like you go into the forums and what are people commenting about? 0:47:53 You had consulting clients and you're listening to their pains and their friction, and that's all a part of it. And basically you're doing all of that work, which by the way, I think like 90% of people don't do that work. 0:48:10 But it's that work that sets you up for some good at bats. Yeah, and I think the truth is is like you look at professional baseball players. 0:48:19 These are people who have trained their entire lives to hit baseballs. And they have a hard time hitting baseball, right? 0:48:28 So you can do all of the foundational work, but their their chances, their odds of hitting a baseball are much higher than mine are. 0:48:39 So all of that foundational work matters. You've got to do all that work to get up to the plate and have a reasonable shot at hitting the ball. 0:48:49 And then even then you might hit it, you might foul, you might walk, you might just get a line drive, you might get a home run. 0:48:57 Like those Those are all opportunities, those are all, I'm sorry, you know, potential outcomes. But it's still like a lot of players get up to bat and they strike out. 0:49:10 Right. Right. And they're good players. Right. So what's the number? It's like if you bat 300, you're in the hall of fame or, you know, there's something like that. 0:49:17 Yeah. I mean, I'm actually not a baseball fan. Yeah. I'm not either. There's some number where it's like not that many. 0:49:23 And if you actually hit that many, you're like one of the best of all time. Yeah, I mean this is the this is the whole point. 0:49:28 I think this is why sports is a in some way sports is a bad metaphor for business because sports really is zero sum and business has there's more opportunities like there can be multiple CRM software providers and you know you could still win. 0:49:46 So I but I think what's instructive about your story and my story and really almost everybody I know, almost very few people get up to bat and hit a line driver or a home run their first at bat. 0:50:03 And I also see there's an entrepreneurship, there are a ton of people who have not done the foundational work. They don't have clients that they're observing and getting like seeing where their pain points are, seeing where the gaps are, seeing where the opportunities are. 0:50:19 They're not looking at the forums. They're not exploring and evaluating ideas in this way. They don't have a network. They don't have any skills. 0:50:28 And so, you know, that what is the success rate of any given entrepreneur stepping up to bat? Well, it's nearly zero because there's an infinite number of people who want to do it. 0:50:40 But like I said, I think 90, 95% of them aren't even doing the basic foundational work to even have a chance of hitting a baseball. 0:50:51 Definitely. You do the basic the basic foundational work to give yourself a chance. And then that's after that, it's like we'll see what happens, you know. 0:51:04 I'll hit this one. And okay, it was, you know, I barely got on base. Yeah, well, it's like the harder I worked, the luckier I get, right? 0:51:13 It's like, I definitely think this was like a lot of work. But so because of all this, when outbound sync, like when I did that. 0:51:21 Yeah, so outbound sync. And started talking about it, people. I was like, is the idea that you're working on right now? 0:51:26 This is the one that worked. Yes, I've been doing this for two years. It's profitable. We've got three people on the team. 0:51:32 We've been growing 10 to 20% every month literally since we since October 2023 Like it like and but there were there were things that were happening with it where I was like this has never happened before Okay, okay, so what's different? 0:51:46 Let's explore that so you went through these other ideas All of them are like you maybe you get on base, but it's not really or maybe you don't even get on base Yeah, and then maybe by domain. 0:51:57 Yeah, maybe by domain So, what was the genesis of outbound sync? What was the observation that you're like, oh, this is what we're doing? 0:52:06 So, I had that client, he said he wanted them to talk to each other, I said okay, sounds interesting, built out a basic version of it, and then I started posting about it on social, because social's my only water cooler at this point. 0:52:17 Okay, because I figured like the people who, if I'm gonna build something based on the space that I'm in, they're gonna be there, probably. 0:52:24 So I start posting about it there, I push about it in some WhatsApp groups, and I get some people biting. 0:52:28 So, outbound, a lot of people are in WhatsApp groups, just by way. Okay. Okay. It's very international. Like, very, there are some biases, but in general, it's pretty meritocratic. 0:52:38 Like, I've got a lot of people who I talk with who, like, I don't know their name, I don't know their face. 0:52:41 I don't know anything about them. Yeah. But, like, they're in these groups and if they're kind of like anonymous, like, hacker chat, kind of growth hacker chat. 0:52:47 How did you get in those WhatsApp groups? Um, that's a good question. I don't, well, when I was running my agency, that's when I got exposure to some of those chats and like other agency owners are in some of those groups. 0:52:59 Okay. And they'd say, Hey, you might want to join this group. Yeah. Hey. Oh, yeah. Exactly. And like one of them, like they had like just like they were promoting it. 0:53:07 It's like, Hey, join my group. And there's no caution in it that I just kind of joined the group. Share us practices. 0:53:11 There's kind of like a guild. You know, there's like, it's kind of like there's honor among thieves. Yeah. The like the best outbound people like all know each other. 0:53:18 And they all talk. And they all share notes. And they don't consider themselves as really direct competitors in a in a traditional way. 0:53:25 Yeah. Like it's very interesting. It's very unusual. I do think this is a key thing to I do think this is a key action that a lot of founders don't take, which is you said I'm going to get off everything that's a distraction and I'm going to go where my clients are. 0:53:54 So And then you're also getting in these WhatsApp groups. Yeah, and I think when you're thinking about where to invest your time, I don't think people realize that in a given industry or category, this is what I think actual participants in a given industry or category have such an advantage over somebody 0:54:14 who's just flying in because it looks like a good business opportunity, is you have to be simmering in that community. 0:54:21 You have to be soaking in it. You have to be in the water every day and there are just things you can't experience and they're really subtle unless you have this constant drip of being in a WhatsApp group every day and seeing what people are talking about and you're building those relationships and you're 0:54:43 making these subconscious observations. Yes. Right. Unless I'm doing that, like, I think it's pretty hard. I think it's hard to build a podcast hosting application if you're not a podcaster. 0:55:02 There's just something about knowing the pain, about knowing lots of other podcasters that are trying to do it to, of knowing what it's like to conceptualize a show, and then record into a shitty mic, and then try to publish it, and then be listening to it, and hearing background noise, and like cringing 0:55:22 , and that whole process, until you understand it in an organic way, like I could describe it to somebody, but until you've experienced it, And so you know the pain of releasing something publicly and having people not respond to it or trying to get distribution for it or trying to get people to notice 0:55:45 you just don't understand. And it's the same thing with outbound sales people outbound leads people like do I really understand that category as an outsider? 0:55:57 No. And so if I try to swoop in and and I'm going to compete with Harris Justin Jackson tomorrow, I'm just going to start a new app. 0:56:09 I, you have such an advantage over me. Even with chat GBT, I could get all the like intellectual information like tell me about the outbound world and it might be able to, you know, even pull in stuff from Reddit and stuff and get. 0:56:22 But it's still not the same as being in the water as surfing that spot every single day showing up with all the other surfers looking at those waves, seeing the weather and how it rolls in like nothing compares to being in it. 0:56:38 And I think it's actually almost there are some entrepreneurs that have been able to serve an audience or a category that is not their own. 0:56:50 I think it's exceedingly rare and almost always there's some Venture funding in it where you have runway to really give yourself a crash course in it. 0:57:00 I Think it's so tough. I think you got to be in it to really have an advantage, especially as a bootstrapper Definitely, and so what's funny about where we are today is that those two places I was spending my time represent like the two parts of the business. 0:57:17 We can we'll keep we'll keep riffing but like the agencies are not our direct customer today. Okay. But there are peers and they are the channel that we sell through and I consider them friends. 0:57:28 I mean, I've had agency partners who have gone through some personal things and like I've done a resume out of the details but I've done personal gestures for them just because like I love them. 0:57:37 Yeah. Just like I love them and if they if they if so like truly I consider them like comrades like it And if they were here, if someone needed something, I would do something for them. 0:57:47 And I have done something for them, not because it's like a marketing thing, but because it's like, hey man, I love you, we've been in this stuff together. 0:57:53 Google shut down all these things. Or Microsoft, you know, this happened, we've kind of been through these experiences together. Yeah. 0:57:59 And so, you know, like that's real. Those are real friendships. And there's real trust to get built there over time. 0:58:05 But the funny thing is that they are not our direct customer. We still sell to the people who are on social. 0:58:09 and ultimately the bigger companies, that's where the revenue operations and the sales leaders are. But it's because I spent time with them and understood the space, that was like a really, and I'm still in those WhatsApp groups. 0:58:20 I mean, I mostly, I just use them like for joking around. I don't, I don't be like, hey everybody, we have a Webinar we're doing next week. 0:58:28 We just like, I just like post memes and like give people a hard time and stuff. Yes, yeah, yeah. You know, like just to be, like that's like my role in those communities. 0:58:37 Yeah. You know, we have fun. We're having fun. And again, that's hard to replicate that, to have that kind of rapport with people in industry. 0:58:47 Yeah, totally. So we should really paint a picture. So outbound sync, what does it do, like what was the job it's doing for people? 0:58:56 Yes. So the job should be done. So we get the data. So we have this low code thing. People are interested. 0:59:01 I started having big calls with people. I realized this is not going to work. Like I manually owe off thing into accounts. 0:59:07 people to someone just ask about sock two. We have a make scenario. I'm like sock two. I don't know. Here's make security documentation. 0:59:13 Yeah. We refactored into full code. We go to market. It takes four months to build it, two months to refactor it. 0:59:18 October 2023, we go to market. And the like, the job to be done is, okay, if you, well, I started with, if you're using smart lead, yeah, and you use HubSpot, we get your data from smart lead into HubSpot. 0:59:31 Okay. I was like, that was it. It was like simple enough. If you're using these two tools, but today if you, it's kind of inverted. 0:59:37 I would consider as a HubSpot app or a Salesforce app. If you're a team using HubSpot and you're doing outbound, well then if you're using these tools we can bring your data back into HubSpot. 0:59:49 So like fundamentally, we're a HubSpot app, we get this data in and then as a HubSpot app or a Salesforce app, we get the data in, job one, job two is make the data useful. 0:59:59 So like I got a lead, now I can route that lead to the right salesperson based on their territory or whatever the rules are, I can give them the context of that full thread of a conversation. 1:00:09 Got it. I can see all the sent emails before that. So reply routing. Yeah. Because growth hackers were doing this in the beginning. 1:00:19 So they would be like, to their founder led customer, there's a Slack message. And the founder would be like, right, I'll jump on a call done. 1:00:25 Yeah. But now if it's like, we have mid-market customers with 1500 employees, they need to route it to the right person that rep needs context, they need to know what the campaign was. 1:00:34 There's like so many more rules that are not possible the way it was being done before. So routing them replies. 1:00:41 That's like a huge pain point. So there's like a fire hose of leads. Yes. And then your app just says, okay, I've got to get these leads to the right people in the organization. 1:00:51 Yeah. With the right context, with the right information. Exactly. Got it. And we empower the internal revenue you out revenue operations or house bought or Salesforce admin to build the rules for that. 1:01:04 Routing or the like channeling the firehouse, we allow them to build it themselves inside of HubSpot and Salesforce. Got it. 1:01:10 So I've like sort of finally came to grips with like I'm going to not going to try to make people log in to anything else. 1:01:15 Yes, you are where they already are. Yeah, you want to be in HubSpot. I'm going to give you this data in HubSpot. 1:01:20 You don't need to log in, you log in our application one time, and then you'd have ready to look at it again. 1:01:25 Yeah, we build pipes. Got it. Like, just use the sink. Don't worry about where the water's coming from. And does it show up in HubSpot and Salesforce as an official app? 1:01:34 Yes, so we're in the marketplace in HubSpot and we're working on Salesforce app exchange. That's more of a process. But the biggest surprise learning I had in the beginning was that you actually don't need to be in the marketplace to get distribution through them. 1:01:49 Yeah. So when we talk about building a SaaS or starting a SaaS, We had dozens and dozens of HubSpot customers before we had a marketplace listing. 1:01:57 So it's because I was able to get HubSpot, I post a social and HubSpot users were like, we're using SmartLead, I want that in HubSpot. 1:02:04 And they just reach out to me. Got it. And they installed as a private connected app. So I was not using HubSpot as a direct distribution channel if that makes sense. 1:02:11 I was riding the HubSpot Wave, but HubSpot wasn't putting me on the board. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? 1:02:17 So if you posted on social and said, if you have this problem and you use HubSpot, here's the solution. Exactly. 1:02:23 And so people that were using HubSpot, it was enough for them to go, oh, I use HubSpot and then go, oh, I have that problem. 1:02:29 Exactly. Okay, now I'm gonna pursue the solution. Exactly, because they weren't even thinking to search for it in the marketplace because no HubSpot, so few HubSpot teams were even using these tools. 1:02:38 So there was no search discovery motion, the place that at this time, even still people are learning about these new cutting-edge things in Slack and on social, there's no like, hey, we need to go buy a digital salesroom tool or we need to go buy a landing page tool. 1:02:56 Go search in the HubSpot Marketplace and see what's available. That wasn't a thing. Got it. For more stuff like there is for more established categories. 1:03:05 Yeah. And so, well, this is interesting. So, so you launch this thing and you're primarily getting customers through social and relationships? 1:03:17 Well, initially, because I still have my agency, all the revenue came from my clients. And once again, I forced, I tried to bundle them. 1:03:24 And but this time it worked. I said, listen, I run an agency. We specialize in helping teams that use HubSpot get new leads, and we have this tool to give you those leads. 1:03:34 It's called Upbound Sync. And they're like, yeah, sure, we need leads. If you get a HubSpot, great. We want them there, we really want the leads, but we also do want them in HubSpot. 1:03:41 And that was my first few customers. That was all my initial MRR, but it was because of that. And then when I started to get people come in and say, hey, man, your agency looks great, but I just need the app. 1:03:51 That's when I was like, I have a SaaS. Like, not like a software, I don't have a SaaS company, but I have a SaaS because someone is paying me only for this Heroku app that I built with the developer. 1:04:05 Yes. So that was like the beginning of that. And so we were only selling direct for a while. So people would find us directly and then eventually I wound down my agency And then it was like all software revenue Yeah, and you shared your graph with me Yeah, it's pretty like it's like 10 15% a month you'd 1:04:24 say in terms of growth Let me just look at it here on my side Let me see I can I can share one we're not like doing the build-in public thing with numbers But I can share my screen with uh sure. 1:04:34 Yeah, there's a little share button down there. You should be able to use that Yeah, so this is like the transition. 1:04:39 I've not talked about this with anybody anywhere yet. Nobody's asked. Yeah, this is the journey to the journey from services revenue to software. 1:04:49 So purple is my services are consulting revenue in green is my sass. This is gross top line, you know, money made. 1:04:58 And so if you're just listening, I mean, it's pretty much across fate. I mean, you've got you can describe it probably better than me, but, but yeah, I mean, this is kind of on one hand. 1:05:06 So starting in 2023. Most of your revenue is consulting. And then you see around, well, I guess this would be just at the end of 2023, you start to get software revenue. 1:05:20 And then the software revenue just grows every single month. And then gradually, the consulting revenue, we're not graduate, actually, it comes off, you know, you can see the transition point where you're just like oh it's time to switch to software and I mean yeah we don't have to share the numbers 1:05:39 but like you're doing well like this is you've done it right. Thanks man. Yeah for sure. I feel like we're we're there. 1:05:48 I mean I'll tell you this transition point may 2024 so friend of the pod friend of so many people Rubin Gamma's when things were taking off I emailed Rubin and I was like hey man I think things are going pretty well like tell me about tiny seed, like, I've got this agency. 1:06:04 I have these expenses. Like, we have child care costs. I have a mortgage. We have two cars. Like my, I mean, my wife works in health care. 1:06:10 She's got a great job and she's making money, but we just have a lot of combining coming. I can't not make money. 1:06:16 Yeah. What if this keeps going well? And then like a month later, I was like, oh my god, I need help. 1:06:23 Like, I'm having calls with people that are way better prospects than I've ever had before, asking questions that I am not at all equipped to answer. 1:06:31 and I don't have time to answer. And the hardest thing that I don't think people, unless you've been in it, it's really hard to explain, is that like, if you have a multi-thousand dollar a month retainer client, and then you have like a multi-hundred dollar a month sass client, how do you balance tasks 1:06:48 between those two things? Like it's different, the math doesn't math. Like one, this pays my mortgage, but this one is valued at the top line. 1:06:58 My services are valued at bottom line, like EBITDA or whatever, like how much profit they're generating, the software is valued on paper at the top line of how much the MRR is or ARR is, but like this isn't a lot of money and that is a lot of money, but this is technically worth more and then like this 1:07:12 is a little fix, but it's just a little bug and this is like something where if I don't get back to them, they'll fire me right away. 1:07:18 And so like it's literally, it's impossible to decide what to do at any given moment because the comparison is it's it's apples and oranges yeah and so that was like the appeal so so I kind so I started kind of coming back into like oh yeah tiny seed oh yeah like this is like there's a thing for this 1:07:37 and so we ended up throwing our hat in and getting into tiny seed and I made the decision to shut down my agency even though at the time my SaaS revenue was um 20% of what my services revenue was. 1:07:52 I felt like the momentum was just sort of undeniable, but I couldn't. I needed a bridge. I just couldn't get it to grow fast enough to pay my bills. 1:08:06 And I didn't know what I was doing. I had never gotten this level of success before. And so I didn't know how to like my the learning I had done in the beginning, it got me here. 1:08:16 And then all of a sudden I like slammed into a ceiling of like, I don't know what to do. I don't even know who to ask for help. 1:08:20 Yeah. I don't, I don't know, like, what should I be prioritizing right now? And so for us, like, that was like a god's end of like, okay, this will allow me to bridge the gap. 1:08:29 Yeah. And, and then hopefully it works. If it doesn't work, that's really stressful because I just shut down this thing that it's been paying my bills since 2019. 1:08:37 Yeah. But it has been my like, my lifeline. Yeah. Now I'm committing to this. I switch, I mean, this is like a little detail, but it was an LLC. 1:08:45 So I was able to do owner draws and it was very tax advantage. And now I'm switching to a C-Corp, where I can't pull money out of the business. 1:08:51 And like, I can't do the, I don't have the flexibility that I had before. So all of a sudden, it was like, yeah, business has to work. 1:08:59 And so it was a really, but it felt like, again, like I didn't have a choice. I can felt like this is so obviously a better choice that even though it's a hard one, it's the right one. 1:09:08 And so that turned out to be the case. I've never heard anyone describe like the real, I've never heard anyone describe the way that sorry, I've never heard anyone describe using tiny seed as a bridge before. 1:09:25 So you've got this like clear momentum with the SaaS. It's growing month over month. But in order to transition from consulting to this new thing, you need something to bridge the gap. 1:09:38 And it sounds like in your case, that was both money but also just having more people in your court that could help you, could help strategize, could help make decisions. 1:09:50 Both definitely. Yeah. Did you use the money for hiring or it was just as runway for yourself? Yeah, all three. 1:09:58 So I use it a little bit, runway for myself. I brought on CSM. I brought our engineer on full time. 1:10:04 What's a CSM? Oh, sorry, customer success, success manager. Oh, okay, yep. Um, and then a year-on-full-time, and then we also got, um, sock two, which was totally worth it. 1:10:15 Um, but like just like upfront capital intense things, capital intensive things. Um, and the other thing that happened is at the tiny seed, like when the founders all met up, I had all of a sudden agency started texting me and they were like, hey, dude, I heard you're winding down. 1:10:33 I've always been curious about that on sync. actually have a client that needs this. And it was because I shut down my agency. 1:10:38 I think they felt a lot more comfortable working with me. Yeah. And so I set up our partner program may when we joined tiny seed. 1:10:44 And now it's like 80% of our business. 80% of like revenue leads. Oh wow. Yeah. So now like so agencies who I've been friends with this whole time and I've always been like sharing notes with them. 1:10:56 Yeah. Now they have clients who come in and they say, listen, we're a 1500 up, 1500 employee company, series D company, we have money, we have people, not the problem. 1:11:05 We just need the best. We need someone who's willing to take chances and do really interesting things. And like, that's what agencies are for. 1:11:11 Yeah. And like Nike works with that agencies, right? Yeah. So, so that, but they say, but we use Salesforce. Yeah. 1:11:19 And so we need this data. We need in Salesforce. We need to be able to attribute it. And it needs to be compliant. 1:11:24 And so that's what we solve. We solve all of those problems and we let these really brilliant Grove hackers do their thing and then we connect them to the people who have the willingness to pay and the desire to pay But have rules that need to be followed and so that has become this huge flywheel for 1:11:41 us and we're helping them grow We're helping them move up market because they're getting bigger and better customers because they can tell these stories I see so this is not like a standard like affiliate program This is a program, a partner's program where you are giving the partners leads. 1:11:59 They bring them to us. We refer some. I've referred Anthropics, so that's a pretty good one. But we don't have a ton of leads. 1:12:07 They bring them into us generally. But what we bring is we bring the tool and then we bring a lot of support. 1:12:12 So we set up a Slack Connect channel with them and with their customer and our CSM is in there. And so our customer So if have CRM questions, if they need to get in the weeds, like we say, hey, we will help think through this with your customer so that you can do the thing that you're good at. 1:12:28 You are not a Salesforce admin. Yes. You understand how to shift their signals and how to get the right people. 1:12:34 We'll make sure that it's a lead in Salesforce with the right fields populated, create it at the right time. Yeah. 1:12:38 Signed to the right person kind of thing. So for your partners, you are enabling a whole new category of business for them and giving them a superpower when they have a new client, they're like, oh, wow, I can use outbound sync for this. 1:12:55 Outbound sync is going to provide me with all the support and the tooling to do this job that might be too big for them to do normally or whatever. 1:13:04 Yeah, it's just hard. It's just it's just it is a software required. The only way to do this is with software Yeah, and the funny thing is that these people are like they have their own like a dev resources typically They have tons of really sophisticated internal tooling It's just like hard enough and 1:13:19 enough of a headache. Yeah, that that I that there's enough of an opportunity for us to build something Yeah to for you to for them to outsource it to you Yeah, and so happy to by the way like I've had people tell me like dude I'm spending, I've got a bunch of vendors where I'm spending a bunch of money 1:13:34 . Half of them think it's the only one that I don't even feel like negotiating with you because I don't ever want to think about that source. 1:13:40 I mean, that's a great signal. I mean, that's the whole beauty about SaaS is you're basically socializing the cost of software but also support across thousands of customers. 1:13:55 Exactly. And so, you know, I'm looking at your pricing right now. It starts at $99 and it goes up from there 249, 499, and then Enterprise, so that's a pretty good deal. 1:14:08 For 499, you're getting email and Slack support. I think we go over the top with support. Yeah. I think if someone, if someone were to come in today, they'd be like, you got to dial that back. 1:14:19 Yeah. I mean, I think we go over the top with support at Transistor 2 and I've been a Transistor customer. 1:14:24 I agree. And it was awesome. And I like, I love the experience. I think that's just like again, it's one of those things where if the whole world is going to AI chat bots and support docs or poorly paid customer support people that aren't professionals, then what's one way to stand out? 1:14:45 It's having unbelievable customer support and it takes less people than to support 36,000 users on transistor, which is probably, I don't know, 8,000 paying accounts, that's two full-time people to do that. 1:15:04 So it's an investment, but it's less people than you might think to do that work. And people remember, you know, and then you get better feedback. 1:15:14 The AI support thing, I've had such negative experiences with that, and the thing is like because we have years to the ground like we're able to ship better features and it's I don't know I mean that's the other thing is that you know AI might answer people's questions and it might give you analytics 1:15:28 on the most you know but it can't see the subtext it can't observe things it can't make notes and say oh man like I can really dig in here and see what is causing what's motivating this customer and then also what's causing their problem and those are opportunities. 1:15:48 And if your job as an entrepreneur or a founder is to correctly identify opportunities, like that's your whole job. And it's like, what are the reasons I used to do that? 1:16:01 Well, part of it, it's these back channels, these WhatsApp groups and Slack channels and all that stuff. Part of it is me having an audience on social and watching what's going on there. 1:16:10 And a big part of it is observing real customers and instead of just answering their question and moving on, just taking a break as it paused. 1:16:21 Hey, let me dig into this with you a bit. Like, can we jump on a call and talk about that? 1:16:25 Can I just ask you some more questions? Very few people are willing to ask one follow-up question. I think we need to be asking two or three or four follow-up questions. 1:16:36 That's where you kind of really dig into things and the, you know, AI just wants to move on Right and resolved anything else. 1:16:45 Yeah, and our propensity as humans is to want to move on But the founders job is to say let's slow this down Hey, tell me more about that like what's going on there? 1:16:57 What are you using right now? Okay? And is there like you're paying for that? Okay? is it working for you, what's working, what's not? 1:17:07 That's the magic right there. Yeah, I mean, I totally, I mean, I totally agree. So yeah, I mean for us, that's super important. 1:17:18 And we, yeah, we're in this funny spot where like all the time people are like, why can't I just do this with Zapier? 1:17:26 I think it's like a really good bootstrap business opportunity. Yeah, I don't think it's a venture-scale business, but it's like tiny seat was willing to take a chance on it and like we I needed that bridge. 1:17:36 Yeah, and there's just no way I could have done otherwise. I mean that no that was like a couple months where I was doing both was by far the hardest period. 1:17:43 Yeah, the last six years. Yeah, by far. Yeah, I remember I was on a call with a guy. He was in Poland. 1:17:49 We were on a call at three a.m. Yeah, he's like, dude, what time is it? I'm like, oh, it doesn't matter. 1:17:54 Like can you just tell me if this is working yet. Yeah. Like it was excruciatingly painful. Yeah. And, you know, we went through some family medical stuff in between, which I'm only talking about publicly, but it was extraordinarily difficult. 1:18:10 And we've like subsequently had a second child. And so it's like life just is happening. Yeah. Well, all of this is happening too. 1:18:17 Yeah. But yeah, there's a lot of reasons why this is like a weirdly cool opportunity. We're sitting between a few things. 1:18:21 A lot of reasons why people think like, Zapper could do it or make could do it. couldn't I just do that with chat GPT. 1:18:26 Yeah, and but because we're listening to customers and we're finding these weird little problems like I'm on a demo call and I show someone like oh and like you can do this in Salesforce. 1:18:33 They're like oh, that's okay. That's it. Yeah, but like you wouldn't know unless you we talked to like 50 other Salesforce people. 1:18:40 Yeah, we built that one tiny little feature where it's like it's not documented anywhere, but it's just how that part of Salesforce works. 1:18:49 Yeah, and if you talk to someone who knows, then you know, and if you don't, then you won't build it. 1:18:53 and being able to observe those their reactions and everything. So everything you're telling me, Harris, just reminds me of this article by Rob Snyder called How Loom Found Pull. 1:19:05 And the idea is that you want instead of like pushing a solution all the time, you want where there's just natural pull. 1:19:14 People are naturally being pulled towards your solution. And he has this this pull hypothesis that I think is so great. 1:19:22 It goes, what are we designing for? And number one criteria, there's a project on there to do list. Number two criteria, that is unavoidable right now. 1:19:33 So there's a project on there to do list and it's unavoidable, they need to deal with it. Number three, they consider a list of options to get it done. 1:19:41 So, okay, we got a problem, we need to get it done now. Here's our list of options. We're going through this right now with transistor because we're trying to find an HLS video streaming hosting solution. 1:19:51 So we're going through a list of providers, but they think their options have serious limitations and I think we've all experienced this, right? 1:20:00 Like here's something. So this is a poll hypothesis and they go through looms whole company story and their first one was open test didn't work. 1:20:14 Great hypothesis. Just like you had I think some really good early hypothesis didn't work. Then they go to the second one. 1:20:22 Here's the second one. Open test is the product version two. That didn't work. Okay, now we're going to create a product called OpenVid. 1:20:31 And they're getting closer and closer. And then finally, they get to Lume, which is, you know, very successful video recording and sharing tool which was acquired by Jira for 975 million and what I like about this story and your story I see it mirrored in both is that Rob asks the question like was that 1:20:57 original hypotheses wrong maybe not because there's actually some other companies That release products exactly with that hypotheses and it worked. 1:21:08 So there's a mix of success factors, you know, timing and maybe the skill of the founder or these connections or the product approach or whatever. 1:21:19 Any given hypotheses can work, but all you can do as an entrepreneur is keep iterating and keep trying to find And the thing that's going to work for you, work for your customers, work in your world. 1:21:38 And yeah, it just seems like you went through this exact journey multiple. Yeah, I mean, if you if you scroll up that thing, I mean, this totally mirrors. 1:21:47 So like today, like I had a like this week, we've been like recently, we changed our pricing and since we changed our pricing and we, me, I changed our pricing in like late April after I went to microconf. 1:21:59 And I listened to Marcos Rivera. It's called like street pricing. Yeah. I listened to his microconf talk literally five times and then plus all the other random stuff. 1:22:07 Okay. And I think we've really since then conversations have been going even better. So it's like for us, like who are we designing for? 1:22:14 It's revenue teams using how it's about in Salesforce. Yeah. So they typically have multiple salespeople and they're running this, like, outbound motion. 1:22:25 They need to connect, there's a project on the list. Literally, someone said, two people, both sales calls this morning, both said, I have it on my list to figure out how to get these two things to talk to each other. 1:22:34 Yeah. It's unavoidable because they're spending the agency is the secret sauce for us because when they're really serious, they hire an agency. 1:22:42 And so we're spending a lot of money on this really good agency. So we need results and we need to attract what's happening. 1:22:49 Yeah, that's the like secret to why I think why it's working so well is because they're committed to the outcome versus internal teams like play around with outbound but like varying results and it's there's no urgency. 1:23:00 Yeah, so it's like they're shipping campaigns next week. We've got to get everything connected or whatever. They look at Zapier or Make or anything or building themselves or not not integrating them is like always an option. 1:23:13 And then ultimately some of those teams decide that App Bonsink is going to help them get the data the way they need it. 1:23:20 Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know. I mean, maybe there's a way to like kind of forcibly shoehorn this into any story, but I do feel like as I go through this, it feels like we have a version of this today. 1:23:30 And I think this is the point is that if you can't honestly and realistically and reasonably fill out this hypothesis worksheet, already that's a no-go. 1:23:45 Now the hypothesis worksheet does not mean you're automatically going to hit a home run but the way you just described it I can there's just these key points it's like this is a project on their list that's unavoidable right now how do we know that they've hired an agency they have put they've invested 1:24:04 time and money and resources this is and this is like everything in a business like John and I have been struggling with sales tax forever if you listen to this podcast and it's been on our list forever and then it reaches a boiling point where it's unavoidable. 1:24:22 We've got to deal with this right now. We are going to invest real time, real money. How do we know? 1:24:28 Well it's become the Justin's number one priority. It's my number one project for the next two three months, we are going to get this done. 1:24:37 And in our case, we hired somebody, a contractor to help us just like, I was meeting with them every week. 1:24:44 We're strategizing. We're trying to figure out what exactly do we need to do? We're booking meetings. Like, that's how you know it's serious. 1:24:52 And again, there's no guarantees, but the stronger the signal is here, And the less you dilute yourself, like when there's real money being invested and you have that key observation like you had, which is they've hired an agency. 1:25:11 This is serious. Like now this has gone from nice to have or yeah, that sounds good or to know, we were pushing. 1:25:20 We're doing this. Yeah. This board level metrics, like we have customers who are like the VPN marketing is like, I board meeting next week. 1:25:30 I have a question about this up on sync data because our internal admin is going to build a report for me for my board meeting. 1:25:37 Yeah. And you can in customer interviews and investigations, you can ask questions that will reveal this, which is what are you doing about this problem right now? 1:25:49 So you say it's on your list. You've got a project that's unavoidable that you say is unavoidable. You say it's on your list. 1:25:56 What are you actually doing to solve that. And if they're like, eh, not much, I haven't really looked for anything yet. 1:26:04 Like, what have you considered? Ah, not much. It's like, okay. This isn't sure it's on your list, but I don't see actual motion. 1:26:14 Like, the customer has to be in motion in a real serious way for it to work. This is like, I built that that project with a college grad called Swagfan. 1:26:25 And it's like, yeah, yeah, making swag. Now, I use it. It's great. But that is not a serious project on most people's list. 1:26:38 And so it's never gonna have that same pull that something else would, there's something way higher on most founders lists and most marketing people's lists then we gotta get swag out right now to our fans and influencers and everything. 1:26:55 Well, so the urgency thing, I mean, for sure, there's so much to that. Last thing on this is where I think it's super interesting is like the value goes both ways for the agencies too. 1:27:04 They wanna be able to prove results. Yeah, and so when we get the data into that important system, they can show the customers the value. 1:27:12 So for them, it helps with retention too. Yeah. And it helps them get credit when there's conversion that they didn't directly drive. 1:27:19 Mm-hmm. So I email a company, let's say you're doing the sales sacs thing and I end up emailing like Helen for some reason and I'm like with numeral, numeral solves sales sacs for SAS companies. 1:27:29 Email Helen. Helen's like, this isn't my thing, but I forward it to Justin. Yeah. Then Justin goes to numeral, his website, signs up. 1:27:35 The called agency that email Helen, and then the next day you sign up for numeral like that's a conversion that they're normally never getting credit for. 1:27:45 Yes. So like there's, we're so in the middle of lots of things but so we're, I think we're in the middle of it, like trying to create win-wins across things and just solve a knowing problem so that different people can talk. 1:27:55 And like, the swag fan thing is a funny example of like, yeah, like, who's feeling that? Who's like, God, I really, I really need this swag. 1:28:02 Exactly. Yeah. So there's a lot of weird ways where I don't know. Ultimately, like, I'm not sure why this is working right now. 1:28:07 If you add it all up, I don't know, I just, it feels like it's going really well. I don't know what's going to happen next. 1:28:12 And I couldn't really, if I had to recreate it, I couldn't because I couldn't really boil it down to like, okay, here's three things or here's the five things. 1:28:20 But this is the important piece I want people to take away. This is a journey. It's like you deciding as a founder, I'm going to do this and at the beginning, you think it's going to be a one or two year project. 1:28:36 Like I'm going to I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to get this done in two years and I'm going to have a great business. 1:28:41 And the truth is this is a lifetime project, and you are on a journey of iterating and trying to get closer to your goal. 1:28:53 And again, every at bat you have, you got to be doing something, some fundamentals, to give yourself a better shot. 1:29:03 But you also have to go up to bat. You have to make some swings things like you did. And then eventually something will hit. 1:29:13 And you won't know completely why you'll have some ideas. As an outsider, I think I can see a lot of characteristics about why outbound sync worked. 1:29:22 It just has a lot of built in momentum. You're in an existing jar, uh, juggernaut of an ecosystem with HubSpot and Salesforce. 1:29:35 There's so much money in motion there. And so for you to capture some of that value or create new value inside that ecosystem, it just makes sense. 1:29:46 And I think people need to follow this example and understand there's no guarantees. So you could get up to 10 times and it might not work out. 1:29:58 But what you're doing as a founder is you're basically betting that if I keep at this, if I keep improving, If I keep learning, if I keep iterating, one of these at bats is going to produce something. 1:30:12 And yeah, I did. I'm just so pleased for you, congrats on getting it to here. This is such an awesome success story. 1:30:20 Thanks, man. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I learned so much. I mean, I feel like I was learning so much for so long from you, so when we connected and talking about coming back on here, it felt like a really, yeah, like a full circle thing is happy to do it. 1:30:33 You know, like, yeah, I feel like it's the end of the beginning now. So now like the work begins, but it feels like we're default alive. 1:30:41 Not like really anxious about paying bills or the the threat of not being able to pay bills sort of somewhat soon. 1:30:48 And so now I'm hoping I can breathe and start even taking some bigger risks than we have before. Like in the last six years, every time I placed a bet, it kind of had to pay off or I had to do or or be such a little bet that it could lose. 1:31:01 Oh, yeah, I mean, once you get out of that scrappy bets stage where like good investors, good people who make people who are good at making bets Eventually ideas that they are betting Resources that they can lose right so it's like this is a pretty good bet But if I lose this bet, it's not the end of 1:31:23 the world whereas when you're at the beginning and you're bootstrapping and you're scrappy It's like if I lose this bad Yeah, like it could be rough, you know, and it felt like every bet leading up to transistor was like that for me. 1:31:39 It was like, yeah. Okay, like this is, I am kind of betting the farm every time. Exactly. That's why it's so hard, but yeah, now at this stage, I think you're about to enter a really fun stage. 1:31:53 Running a company is always hard, but at this stage when you have more resources and more breathing room and more calm and more margin, then it just becomes about showing up every day. 1:32:03 I just think my job is showing up every day and moving this giant rock further down the path. Like I'm just pushing it a little bit more and those efforts are kind of multiplied in a way that didn't happen before because there is existing pull. 1:32:20 So yeah, I'm excited for you. For folks who want to check out what you're doing, where should they find you on social And at the website, yeah, about sync.com. 1:32:31 And then yeah, social Harris Kenny, look me up. As we've been embracing our partners, I post really weird, funny stuff like about Pokemon and I've been posting memes. 1:32:40 And just like we've gone to ICP and so I'm just having fun like posting for them. Oh, sweet. So yeah, so if you like kind of funny goofy social, go there. 1:32:48 If you're looking for inspiration, it's not the place. Sweet, sweet. Well, thanks so much for being here. I'm going to read out our supporters because we haven't done our Patreon shout out to noisle. 1:32:59 So thanks to everyone who's still supporting this show on Patreon. We've got Pascal, we've got Greg Park, we've got Mitchell Davis, we've got Marcel Fallet, we've got Del Condo, we've got Ward from MemberSpace.com, Vandercassie, Austin Loveless, Michael Sitver, Colin Gray, and Dave Junta. 1:33:19 Thanks everybody. Thanks, Harris. See you soon.

From Agency to App: How OutboundSync Took Off in the HubSpot Ecosystem

Wed, 18 Jun 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this conversation with the Built the HubSpot podcast, Harris Kenny, Founder of OutboundSync, shares the journey of evolving from a HubSpot Solutions Partner to a deeply integrated App Partner. The discussion spans the critical gaps in outbound infrastructure, the real-world push from customers toward productization, and why going deep in a platform like HubSpot (instead of wide across many tools) created a sustainable competitive advantage. If you’re building in the HubSpot ecosystem, or wondering whether you should, this is a candid, tactical breakdown of what it takes to succeed as a bootstrapped app business. ## Watch ## Transcript 00:00 Welcome to Built the HubSpot, the series we're exploring the stories of the company's investing in going deep in the HubSpot ecosystem and building in a competitive advantage. 00:11 Today, we're talking to Harris Kenny, the founder of OutboundSync. We get into all things from how we made them switch from being a solutions partner to an app partner in the HubSpot ecosystem, the maturity curve, of your potential buyers and their awareness and sophistication with your solution, and 00:29 what it takes to make the right bets as a bootstrap startup building in the HubSpot ecosystem. This series is presented by Ampersand, the deep integration platform that's enabling the best startups and AI agents to build deep product integrations with HubSpot and other tools that your customers are already 00:47 using without managing maintenance and complexity at scale. Let's get into it. But we started as a solutions partner. So I was running a consulting company and doing sales, consulting, fractional sales revenue. 01:03 I guess now what you'd call a good market, GTM. And we had some customers head CRM, some didn't, ended up encountering HubSpot over and over again and decided to join the HubSpot partner program. 01:19 And we were offering HubSpot services, implementations as well as outbound email. Which is kind of funny because HubSpot was always built on inbound. 01:29 And then people are like, hey, you know, you're running these outbound campaigns, can we get this data in this year? 01:33 Basically, you know, really straightforward. And so yeah, I was all in on solutions partner agency. We were tearing up, we were gold tier and growing and things were going really well. 01:42 Went to inbound was getting really good support from our camp at the time, and he encouraged us, Jake Becil, he encouraged me to think about building out Up On Sync. 01:51 He felt like there was something interesting there, and you know, when I was working on this at the time we support getting Up On Data basically into HubSpot, and I'll go into a little bit more what that means, but at the time, you know, the options weren't good. 02:07 The sequesters that existed that our users were using, they didn't have any grations at all, and since then, not much has changed. 02:13 And so basically the idea is like, if HubSpot is gonna be the system of record, if you wanna be able to have revenue attribution, if you wanna be able to have a smooth handoff to the sales team, then you're gonna need the type of scaled outreach that's happening in a tool like a smart lead or an instantly 02:29 or email bison, you're gonna need that data to be in HubSpot as well, so that you can do all of those things. 02:34 And if you wanna maintain block lists and suppression lists, you need HubSpot to talk back to those other tools too. 02:40 so that if HubSpot has good data hygiene in it and it's enriched and it's current and it's got all the right information, then you want to be able to use lists in HubSpot to make sure that that is feeding a block list so that any activity that's happening off platform isn't going to those people. 02:57 And then lastly, like from a compliance perspective, if you want to have tight filter on what comes into HubSpot and or have a unified consent opt-in, opt-in, opt-out, subscription type setting, you know, again, like the two platforms needs to be a bidirectional sync between the platforms. 03:11 So, you know, as we were doing the campaigns, they're kind of like these use cases or pain points emerged, and it felt like, okay, there's room for an app here, started playing around, built something and make.com, and then saw a lot of interest, and then we kind of went from there. 03:23 So that was kind of the genesis of Outbound Sync, and it was really, really completely informed by the fact that we were a solutions partner, and so we were in the portal with the customers seeing how other apps worked, seeing how apps like arrows worked and then comparing that to other apps that we 03:36 tried where the integrations were just really bad. And it was like, wow, like what is even the point of installing this app at all? 03:42 And so seeing like, okay, there is a spectrum of quality here. And that's up to the developer to decide what kind of app they want to build. 03:50 And that's when it felt like, okay, maybe there is an opportunity here. If we want to really focus on quality and building for the ecosystem, you know, really deeply that I think maybe there's a company here, maybe at a minimum, maybe there's a product here. 04:02 You mentioned the demand that sort of felt like as you were building a little bit more product around this process, around some of the pain points, you said it feels sort of pull from the market. 04:10 Was that part, that pull primarily sort of HubSpot focus like we want more, we want to be able to do more in HubSpot. 04:16 There was a more from like we need this functionality to run better outbound campaigns that are not in HubSpot, which side do you think is the sort of more of the factor in going deep on this? 04:27 Yeah, so what was happening was that teams were, and still are, I mean, I really believe in the concept of the adoption curve, and I still think that from where we're working on, we're nowhere near, even close to the middle of the adoption curve, I think our users are still ahead of overwhelming majority 04:46 of the market, which is exciting because there's growth to come, and I think that's true of the HubSpot story in general, that HubSpot itself has a lot of room, I think, in the market to grow, but we were basically teams were like landing in spam. 05:03 They're landing the spam folder. And so like, okay, we need to use a different tool. And so they would find smart lead. 05:12 And then they'd say, great, we use smart lead, but we also use HubSpot and we want to get this stuff back in HubSpot. 05:17 So that was generally like the order of discovery, we're maybe misusing sales hub or, you know, I think you could argue like misusing outreach or sales loft tools that were not designed for how they were being used by users. 05:30 I think like outreach product, like team would say that. And I think like even the users would acknowledge like, yeah, this isn't like exactly, you know, we're maybe pushing it beyond what it was designed for or explicitly doing things it wasn't built to do. 05:43 Right. This will sort of be clear on that point, that sending outbound email from a tool that is not designed to send outbound email, right? 05:50 Exactly. And a hotspot or one of these sales engagement type tools that are designed to send email to contacts that you already have who have offered in if you're new about you. 05:58 Yeah, and especially at scale. So if you're talking about emailing, like, I mean, literally two million people a month or something like that, you know, yeah, it's not designed, some of these tools are just not designed for that. 06:10 So they would go find a tool that was designed for that and then they would say, yeah, but but I still need this data back in my system of record. 06:15 I need to like, you know, we need to phone home here, we need to get back. And so that was the opportunity to merge. 06:20 And then for us, like we're a dedicated app, so we have a higher price point. I don't know what the exact breakdown is, but I think certainly many, if not majority of the apps in the HubSpot app store or marketplace are free. 06:33 So it was already tough sliding being like, hey, this is a HubSpot app that you have to pay money for. 06:37 And so we had to move up in terms of pricing into the like multiple hundred dollars a month so that we could make the unit economics of the business work. 06:45 I mean, we're a bootstrapped. We're a small team. And then in parallel, I'm running my solutions partner agency where I'm getting upspot implementation. 06:52 You know, I'm getting paid for selling upspot and I'm doing the implementation projects. There are multiple months, four to five figure contracts. 06:59 And so then in parallel to be like, okay, well, now I'm going to go try to sell a single seat of outbound sink for a couple hundred dollars a month. 07:06 You know, it's, it was really difficult to try to navigate that as an app developer. It's just the economics of that was really tricky for a little bit. 07:18 But so we bundled it. So look, these are our services and we use our app. And that was how we got a user-based going. 07:26 And then people started saying, hey, we don't actually want your services. We just want the app. And that was kind of a new era for the company. 07:31 I'm like, okay, great. You just want our product. That's great. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all. It's no problem. 07:35 That's exciting to hear that you want that. And so that was kind of a new era of, okay, now how do you support a product only? 07:39 And that was also tricky. And then slowly kind of made the transition over. We're now we're a full dedicated software company. 07:45 We do not provide any services at all. Definitely majority of our income is a hotspot ecosystem and a hotspot users. 07:51 And then kind of here we are today. Team of three, we've got an engineer, we've got a CSM, we've got myself. 07:56 We ourselves obviously use HubSpot. We're using our own product every day. We run our own app on campaigns and things like that too. 08:01 Yeah, I think that transition from, you know, full services provider to sort of software company with that transition period where you're doing both It's really interesting. 08:10 I'm curious that you mentioned on the adoption curve And for folks who don't know you have a great article that will link here, but As you're shifting away from you running the services using your own product to others Not wanting that service and wanting to do it themselves. 08:21 Are they have you found that they're doing it themselves because they're an agency providing that service to others they hide an in-house team to go run, that motion simply as you move up the maturity curve, it is a pretty specialized, sophisticated role. 08:36 How have you found that be from a, you know, the user base of OutboundSync? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, so if you go to our site, outboundsync.com, there's like a resources page. 08:46 If you go to that, we've got an article that I just published called the app on maturity curve and developed from Early conversations that I had with you some time ago and then it took a little time for us to kind of like flesh it out But I'm really proud of what it is right now and basically the idea 09:00 so we've got like five levels of maturity even up on function within an organization and Level one being not doing any upbound basically and level five being a really sophisticated machine with feedback loops and dynamic enrichment and multiple vendors and You know multiple channels that you know it 09:16 starts to get pretty cool what some teams are doing and for us You know, it was this process of like moving into like smaller and smaller parts of the endiogram for us to find a toehold to exist in the marketplace. 09:33 So it's like you had to be using HubSpot and Smartlead. And so HubSpot has hundreds of thousands of customers, but Smartlead has like tens of thousands. 09:41 So now of the tens of thousands of Smartlead customers, some percentage of those are using HubSpot. And then you also have to care about these problems enough, revenue attribution, opt-outs and activity syncing for sales rep handoffs, you should care about those problems enough that you're willing to 09:58 pay extra to solve them. And so now it's like, okay, now the pindagram is even smaller, because that means basically you've got like some sales reps, basically. 10:07 And so most of the market isn't there, and so what we have found is that working with agencies have been a huge unlock for us. 10:17 Some people I think talk about agencies as like a stepping stone. Like, oh yeah, we like worked through some agencies, we found some traction and now we're kind of moving on. 10:24 And like for us, like I fundamentally disagree with that. I think agencies, I mean, maybe it's my bias because I previously ran one, but I think they have like highly specialized knowledge. 10:34 I think their role is not simply to like do things that people don't care about. I think people who run agencies are like really care about their craft and they have really particular insight about how things work and so like for us we found partnering with the best agencies was the way to get was the 10:55 way to get in the door with these customers and so like we eliminated the smart lead requirement basically and these were companies that were wanting to move up that out by maturity curve up to like a level three or a level four which around that level what you're talking about is like having multiple 11:10 domains using multiple data providers using AI and dynamic personalization, things that are not easy to pick up right away using tools like Clay. 11:19 And so companies that had resources that had teams that were on so now we're kind of like shifting back over to the hotspot side of the diagram again. 11:24 Whereas before like a lot of times we were like marketing within the smartly community, which I love, but there were power users within smartly and so it's like, oh, we don't need to convince every smartly user. 11:34 And if we can work with the power users with agencies and then they're focused back over on the hotspot side of they are doing the best work. 11:43 So they're finding the fastest growing companies that are running the most advanced hotspot instances with the most automation and when they want the workflows and they want timeline events and they want lists and they want reporting and dashboards, then it kind of like started to come into place a little 11:56 bit because they were doing the best work, they found the best clients and then they said, yeah, by the way, we use this tool called SmartLead. 12:01 Don't worry about it, but it's how we're landing in the inbox and it's how we're doing all this cool stuff. 12:05 And the clients are like, yeah, whatever, we want lead generation, we want meetings. So it sounds great. We trust you picked the best tool. 12:12 So that was kind of how we went from like initially positioning to I guess like modifying the positioning a little bit over time. 12:18 Yeah, I mean it makes a ton of sense and I think it's it's really interesting sort of transition into the gonna market for advancing some of the things that have worked in the helps body ecosystem that are maybe like non non obvious if you're a SaaS company that is selling a product and you don't care 12:31 about ecosystems even just the point that you're like slicing a slice of a slice to get to the intersection of folks, and I mean, even within HubSpot, we have this at Arrows, obviously, if you sell a tool which is only for a specific hub, or most mostly used, if you use a specific hub, you maybe eliminate 12:47 a large percentage of that, you know, 240,000 HubSpot customers off the bat. So let's get into the sort of good market motion a little bit. 12:55 What are some of the things that have worked for you or what are you sort of doubling down on or would suggest as like, you know, this is an area to push the specific to the HubSpot ecosystem? 13:04 system. Yeah. Well, I mean, I spent time really building some deep things inside of HubSpot that take time to understand and read through the API documentation and take advantage of things like timeline events. 13:15 You know, we're working on UI cards now and so it's like getting to know the platform. There's a lot of stuff that if you build for HubSpot, that it enables, but it's not obvious. 13:27 And if you look at the way most apps work, they're just not doing those things. They're not taking the time to do that. 13:33 Integration for them is one of many priorities. And if you're looking at your product roadmap and it's like rocks, paper, scissors, shoot kind of thing, you know, the integration like, you know, it's rock and it keeps losing to build this other feature on our platform kind of thing. 13:49 And so for us, because we're fundamentally an integration tool, that's all the case, right? Like the building deep in the platform does win because that's why people buy our product. 13:59 But I think that even companies that don't make an integration to us can learn from that. And it can be the edge that can cause a product to be selected, you know, and especially to competitive space. 14:10 Going that like one extra layer deep, I think can make a difference because a savvy HubSpot admin will get it. 14:17 They'll be like, oh, yep, got it. Because you built that, I can do this. Like there's like a very quick in a single screen shot, they can see all the integration filter properties that they could select from a timeline event and know that what they'll be able to do with it and then for them, it gets 14:34 really obvious. And so what I found that like a lot of times, an admin, rev-ops admin, super admin, and this is true in Salesforce and in HubSpot, a lot of times they're, what I'm finding is like their job is veto more than anything else. 14:45 And so when, because they're kind of the guardian of the CRM and they're the guardian of the system and sometimes that includes security requirements and things like that. 14:53 But other times it's just like how deep does this go and what can it, what does it do, what access does it have, what permissions is it requesting, is it requesting for like excessive scope and things like that. 15:04 You need to build for the immediate like use case. So for us it's like we're generating leads, we need to see the leads, we need to track the leads and then we want to not email people we shouldn't email. 15:16 That's obviously the thing, the problem, those are the problems that we're solving. But if we can build it deeply in a thoughtfully in a way that when the other person gets looped in and they're on that call and they look at the screen and they're like, yeah, looks good to me. 15:30 That's all you need from that person. They're not the end customer buyer, but they have their job to say no to things that will throw off the rest of everything else that's going out within the organization. 15:45 So yeah, the going those extra layers deep and like really focusing on ecosystem and what has been provided for you as an app developer, I do think that's a way to actually accelerate your revenue within an ecosystem because like for me for us like my focus is like how quickly if we're going to build 16:00 into integration, how quickly can we be getting paid by users of those tools. So because we're not venture backed, we don't have tens of millions of dollars to burn. 16:11 If we invest engineering or something, we need to get money back relatively soon. It needs to be validated in market. 16:17 And so one of the ways to do that is to do it the right way. So if you're thinking about building a hotspot app for the first time, if you're a bigger company, you need to think about what would a hotspot user actually want to make a case for it, or if you're a new app developer, it's kind of the same 16:29 thing. So by going a little deeper, you can get money faster because people will be like, okay, cool. And maybe that means like starting narrow and just nailing one thing and then okay, here's where we're going next, where we're going next, we're going next, it's like associations, we log associations 16:43 up to the company object, there's like a lot of little things that we're doing that when you show people they get it and they're like, okay, yeah. 16:48 And then therefore they have a willingness to pay because they know it's saving them time. You know, we can talk about super next because super bits into that. 16:56 Yeah, I think there's a lot of things that are like that that are to a point, if you less better or less deeper. 17:04 There's lots of advantages and I think it's interesting to just primarily about sort of speed to revenue on the like the front side of a deal, right? 17:09 Like how quickly can we get that or like avoid the know from somebody who would otherwise block a deal. I think there's interesting opportunities too when you go deep on what Hubsbot gives you as an app developer to increase expansion, increase retention. 17:22 And I think this is a unusual way of approaching things if you are not sort of approaching things through an ecosystem lens, right? 17:30 It's like Like, the advantage of a timeline event in HubSpot isn't just that somebody can, you know, use that timeline event directly in a workflow or in reporting or whatever. 17:39 It's like, you open up the surface area or the potential for more people to see your product in HubSpot. As you mentioned, great. 17:47 So the segue into Superd, because one of the things that I talk about with folks a lot is like, what do you enable in HubSpot? 17:53 Like, what is the thing that somebody can do because of your app inside of HubSpot? and you have sort of a pretty interesting approach like helping accelerate that full folks. 18:02 Because a lot of apps you install and it's like, oh, you're right, the data might be kept from this app, but now I have to go build something. 18:07 I have to figure out what to do with it. Yeah, totally. You sort of shortcut that loop. Yeah, I mean, SuperD has been a big part of that, right? 18:13 So SuperD.io, we use SuperD's packages feature as an app partner to pre-build lists, workflows, and reports. And so if I say, listen, if you're running outbound and you want to be able to attribute that app onto Revenue, you need a report. 18:27 Well, we built the report for you. Here it is. And so from a single link, they can install the Chrome extension, deploy that report, or they're in that entire dashboard. 18:36 We have a dashboard with like 30 different reports in it. They can deploy that whole thing. And because we're using webhooks as well, you know, a user could, if they sit down and focused in under an hour, they could have their app on campaigns sinking fully into Hublot with all the activities and everything 18:51 like that. And then piping right into reports and be able to track Like the full activity set and then any conversion that happens on those contacts in under an hour. 18:59 And then also have workflows that are triggering like call tasks for the reps to follow up on replies and things like that. 19:05 And so Superd enables that in a way that's really, really powerful. So yeah, I mean, you want people to actually use the application to actually use the data. 19:12 I think for us, our first problem was like the data layer. And now what's happening is we're finding that our data because we did it in a way that's really conscientious about how a HubSpot works and the HubSpot data model. 19:24 We're finding is that our integration is forward compatible. As new features come out, I'll like refresh the UI and HubSpot and be like, Oh, yeah, turns out app on sync supports the all bound timeline. 19:39 I don't even know what the all bound timeline is. I've never even heard of it. But because we how we're logging that email activity, and we looked it all the options and the API docs and we did it the right way, yeah apparently we support that now which is cool. 19:53 So I do think HubSpot does a good job if you follow the docs as they ship things like we have found that. 19:59 And that's been pretty nice and that is not necessarily typical of every platform. Definitely not. And I think they're surfacing more at ways also. 20:08 Like they're adding more ways within the application to sort of like find oh an app does this for an app solves this problem. 20:16 You know, so that I think is where I think things are getting potentially interesting in a way that helps about does that, that is not, again, not typical for other CRMs. 20:23 And I think it's a really good step for the platform and for app developers because it gives you better visibility and distribution. 20:29 I'm curious sort of on that note that, you know, if you're building it the right way, if you're investing the time in the integration, how much time you find and sort of maybe building it the right way mitigates a lot of this. 20:40 But like, what's the sort of upfront cost of integration versus like ongoing, you know, helps about change something we need to think about how a new approach to this, you're always in a dynamic environment and you have an integration with something, right? 20:53 Like anything can change at any point. Like, how do you sort of account for that in planning and like road mapping? 20:59 Yeah, I mean, that's true. I mean, if you look at these iPass tools, these integration platform as a service tools, that's kind of their main selling point. 21:05 Like, oh, we'll take care of that for you. I think there are some really cool teams shipping some really cool solutions there, but I am a little skeptical of the pitch. 21:16 What I've found is that the details matter and a lead in HubSpot is not the same thing as a lead in Salesforce. 21:26 If you are not talking to users and you're not understanding the relationship between the lead and the rest of the data model in HubSpot or Salesforce and you decide to move between them and you look at them interchangeably, you're going to have problems. 21:41 I think it's possible to use an iPaaS and not have these issues definitely or like of course it's possible but like The connection is one thing maintaining it is another Understanding the context is another right like there's like so yeah I mean and this is I kind of like chuckle when I see people 22:00 being like I built you know this week It's Docusign I built Docusign 17 minutes with cursor and whatever. It's like that is that is cool But it's like, that's never been the moat. 22:11 I mean, that's not the reason why Airbnb is Airbnb. Like, Airbnb sites are very simple. Craigslist's website is very simple. 22:18 I mean, that's not historically, I mean, yes, occasionally companies come around and their technology is remote. This an FTP setup, right? 22:25 Totally. Right. Yeah, it's a great example. So it's like, you know, I mean, there's other reasons why people buy things and use things and integrations are part of that. 22:33 So yeah, I do think that like maintaining overtime matters, those things change over time. It's like a non-trivial thing and I think that there are some bypass solutions that it will be better enabling for that than others Others I've seen are like very thin and I've talked to other founders who have 22:47 been like hey We're working on a HubSpot integration and we tried out these two different other tools and they didn't give us what we needed So you know, I would say like You just you just got a guy looking to that a little bit. 22:57 But regardless if you do it on your own or if you'd use one of these tools Like you're gonna have to spend some time getting to the platform And I think if you asked anybody at any of these other tools, they would tell you that and And some of them may make it easier, and they may speed up some things 23:09 for you. I think for us, because it's so core to what we do, it didn't make sense. But that doesn't mean it's not a good approach. 23:15 Like it just depends on what you're doing. For sure. And I think that's a great point. Like the context matters. 23:20 The nuance of the ecosystem matters because everybody's trying to do things slightly differently. And as tall as everybody wants to use it slightly differently and the sort of the devil's and the details of those kinds of things. 23:31 Yeah, I mean Salesforce. I mean, like we went the first few months of Salesforce and like nobody's using lead object. 23:37 And then all of a sudden, we just had like, but now we're moving up in the Salesforce ecosystem and bigger Salesforce companies are now reaching out. 23:43 And like, yep, we need that. And then like yesterday, like, oh, actually, we want to go right to opportunity. I'm like, okay, we got to build that too. 23:49 Which like, I mean, it's totally, they explain their use case. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. You know, and I think that like Salesforce is much, much more complicated than HubSpot. 23:57 There's just so many more things that are possible. And just like little weird stuff that how Salesforce uses the task activity as a catch-all for a lot of different things that I didn't fully understand before. 24:07 There's no equivalent exactly one-to-one match for timeline events in Salesforce. But tasks kind of perform like a multi-functional, like a Swiss Army knife kind of thing. 24:24 Once you get in it, then you talk to more users, and then you'll start seeing, oh, there's more here that people want. 24:31 And so like it's not a one and done thing you're going to ship the integration and then users are going to start using it And they're going to have feedback and whether it's maintenance or going deeper like what's going to happen on most engineering teams is like okay We don't want to think about us 24:43 about again for like six months We just worked on it for the last couple of sprints like we're done, right? 24:47 It's like no because now you have users and they're expecting Right, you know, even if it's not new features. Yeah, right. 24:54 They're like well, can you do this? Can you do this? Which like you have to be up for that otherwise you shouldn't build it right because like of course a user would want to use your product, which is like what they're asking for, right? 25:04 Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's a great way of putting it. I think that's helpful, helpful sort of consideration for folks. 25:11 So last question for you. For somebody who is, and maybe I think you sort of have an interesting perspective, as you mentioned, just sort of relatively recently made the shift to also supporting other ecosystems. 25:23 For somebody who's sort of not in the house, but ecosystem, or doesn't have an app integration, you know, whatever the current status. 25:31 What would be the piece of advice or the model that you would have them go through to figure out, is this a bet that's worth making for me? 25:40 What was your framework on both all-in on HubSpot or the first starting point being with just HubSpot to something beyond that? 25:51 We're bootstrapped. That informs how we think about the market and the world and what we do. For us, the question is like, are there users already who have this problem? 26:03 Do you have users already on HubSpot who would like to do things better or differently? The reason why we started building Salesforce in the first place is that we found users were using HubSpots Salesforce data sync to get the data into Salesforce. 26:19 I got a customer service ticket with a screenshot of a contact record in Salesforce and they were like, like, hey, why is this happening? 26:26 I mean, I was like, well, what are you talking about? How did you even get that in there? And they're like, oh, well, we buy your hotspot. 26:35 We bought the hotspot integration, but just to put it into Salesforce. And here's how we're doing that. And it was like, oh, okay. 26:42 And we had like quite a few users who were doing that before I even knew it. Like they never asked, we never talked about it. 26:49 It just sort of happened. And so that's what led us into building for Salesforce. And so I would say with like an ecosystem investment, ideally there should be something there already, you know, like I'm not building for, you know, whatever random like CRM for architects or something like that. 27:11 Because, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of great architects out there and they probably have a great CRM option or maybe they use HubSpot. 27:17 I don't know. But you have to look for the users like what's come up for us on a few calls is actually snowflake Like upmarket people saying actually I want to send this to the data warehouse first and then from snowflake I want to push down to HubSpot and that's come up enough times now where I'm like 27:31 huh and then they explain their use case And they're like okay, yeah, that actually makes sense. So for me the because reboots are actually think about it incrementally We place smaller beds. 27:40 It's like What's the Billy Bean thing? The Oakland A's where they would do the money ball, you know It's like, we're hitting singles and doubles. 27:49 We're not swinging for the fences. So when we write code, it needs to work. When we write docs, people need to read them. 27:56 When we onboard someone, we want to retain that customer. It is not like a high stakes, you know, bed a lot, win a lot, but probably lose everything. 28:06 Kind of thing for our business right now based on our, the nature of what the business is. And so that's my bias. 28:14 But I would say like, see what the users are what they're asking for and make sure that there's value and then know that you can probably stretch them. 28:22 But there has to be like an existing something. And then you can stretch them and help them use it. I would say many of our users don't take advantage of our prebuilt reports and workflows. 28:30 And so now we're kind of shifting into education mode and trying to expand that use case and and do more. 28:37 But in the beginning it was just like does anybody care about this? I can worry about them making the most of it later but like do they care at all and and then we check that box and now it's like okay let's become let's become part of there it's become an essential tool for them in HubSpot. 28:53 That's a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for doing this. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Built for HubSpot podcast. 28:59 If you'd like this show please subscribe to the podcast, follow us on YouTube, follow and subscribe to Built HubSpot on I'll see you in the next episode.

The AI Operator Podcast: Why Outbound Tools Break Your CRM

Tue, 10 Jun 2025 00:00:00 GMT

Most sales teams don’t realize how messy their CRM is—until it’s too late. In this episode of The AI Operator, Jordan Park interviews OutboundSync founder Harris Kenny to talk about the hidden cost of bad integrations and disconnected outbound tools. From his early days running a fractional sales agency to building a product that bridges Smartlead, HubSpot, and Salesforce, Harris shares what he’s learned about fixing data chaos, scaling outbound the right way, and avoiding the trend-chasing trap. If your CRM is a black box or your workflows feel like duct tape, you’ll want to listen. ## Watch ## Listen ## Transcript 00:00 What is up everyone? Today on the AI operator, we are joined by Harris, Kenny, the visionary, ah, behind Outbound Sync platform revolutionizing out B2B sales teams integrate their Outbound efforts with CRM systems like HubSpot and Salesforce. 00:16 He's got over 15 years in sales and go to market strategies, ah, Harris identified a critical gap, the disconnect between modern Outbound tools and traditional CRM systems. 00:27 So Outbound Sync addresses this by seamlessly syncing outbound campaign data, reducing manual tasks, and ultimately enhancing data accuracy. Now, prior to outbound sync, Harris founded intro CRM. 00:39 It was a fractional sales agency and HubSpot solutions partner, where he really honed in his expert in sales operations. So we'll be looking at his journey from consulting to SaaS entrepreneurship and the valuable insights into a valuable ever-evolving landscape of sales technology. 00:56 So with that, Harris, welcome to the show, man, we're super excited to have you. I'm excited to dive in because I were a similar breed, right? 01:07 HubSpot Agency, closed agencies, automation and workflow process, sales process, heavy, which not everyone on this show fits into that box. 01:16 And then you also have the extra edge of being, you know, a SaaS founder. So super excited for this conversation. 01:23 How are you doing today? Doing great. I really appreciate the opportunity. And yeah, I mean big fan of your stuff and And Mariah and your team, I mean, I've seen your stuff on social for years. 01:32 So yeah, I'm excited to chat and I'm excited to talk about what's new on the AI side of things too and how this all kind of comes together because there's a lot going on today. 01:40 Just like the day that we're recording this, a ton of things have come out. So it feels like there's never a moment right now. 01:45 There is not. It's hard to even keep up with now as part of the intention behind this podcast was to drive a little bit of awareness of where people might be falling a little behind, you know, where people are and ultimately like how we see this evolving because you know that my best guess is is you 02:05 know I mean it's endless like we really don't know at this point so we'll talk a little bit about that but I do want to start with your background as an entrepreneur as an agency owner and really the transition that you kind of have made so if you would can you share a little bit about your journey of 02:25 like the founding intro CRM and then ultimately how you ended up launching an outbound sync and what inspired that transition. 02:34 For sure. So I had worked in a variety of sales and marketing roles prior to starting my agency. And I actually had a lot of experience in hardware. 02:44 I scaled a 3D printer company from yeah, from like 1.7 million to 20 million in annual revenue you and scaling hardware company is exceptionally difficult. 02:55 Just the challenge of having to buy things ahead of time and having the labor and things like that. We were manufacturing the 3D printers in Colorado, you know, sort of before it was cool, before all the latest trade conversation. 03:08 And so we scaled and learned a lot. It was interesting. Our partner program was a really big part of how we grew. 03:13 And then I worked for a PC company for a little while. And this is actually very early on before a lot of this AI stuff it's coming about now. 03:20 So back in 2019 and I remember even at the time I'll just mention this as a total aside just because I think it's relevant for AI. 03:27 I remember I went to Nvidia's annual user conference and saw a panel on how they were starting to apply GPUs for imaging and reviewing imaging and things like that. 03:38 And at the time it was just called ML primarily. But this was a Linux computer company and a lot of these things are run on Linux and the systems are run on Linux and there had been this like run where people were buying GPUs to mine Bitcoin and stuff. 03:53 And then at some point, they started identifying these other use cases. And I remember we were selling these like server rack units and these really beefed up machines with very heavy GPU compute capability. 04:04 And at the time being like, you know, this is interesting. The most expensive some machines were selling by far have this like they're just maxing out on GPUs and yeah anyway so that's come a long way in this six or seven years since then but I really wanted to work for myself by a wife and I were playing 04:21 on starting a family and having kids and so I want to work for myself so I started an agency to do that and was working in the HubSpot space worked as a close partner as well and really really had a great experience working with clothes especially they have an awesome team over there and I really love 04:35 Staley the founder And as I was doing that, we were running CRM ops and then outbound as a service. And that was kind of where outbound sync came from, is that we were using these new outbound tools, trying to help people stay out of the sit band folder and land in the inbox and y'all know these outbound 04:50 tools really talked back to the CRM. And so yeah, we can talk more about the process of kind of getting this out of the ground, but that was how it came about built an MVP, got a little more traction with it, and it just kind of has been building momentum for the last two years. 05:04 But the first version of it I did build with chat GPT. It actually helped me write the API calls and get going So the AI kind of threw out the journey for me. 05:12 It's a that's incredible and I haven't even really talked to you much about outbound sync, but I first had know the challenges that People have with you know any type of outbound campaign and tying it back to the CRM my own incline my own clients included did. 05:32 So I'm really excited to dig into that a little more. What would you say like ultimately was your biggest challenge as you moved from an agency to a SaaS product and then the second question to that kind of to go along with the challenge theme is you know what are you observing as the biggest challenge 05:56 in and the outbound sales process right now. Yeah, well, it's really been a series of challenges. I think in the very beginning, when you're running a services business, it's a very different business model than a software company. 06:14 And so running both at the same time was exceptionally difficult because you have a retainer client who's paying you thousands of dollars a month and then you have the software user who's paying you hundreds of dollars a month. 06:29 And so it's just very difficult to understand how to prioritize your time when you're just a solo founder and you have these wildly divergent value and time, you know, time to value all these things. 06:41 It was just really, really hard to balance the two. So when I made the decision to go all in on the software product, I think that was a big one. 06:50 It was a big unlock and I joined Tiny Seed, which is a B2B SaaS accelerator for bootstrap SaaS companies. That was a huge unlock. 07:00 So that was one. And then the other one that was kind of during that same time of getting things off the ground was, frankly, just building the product being a non-technical founder. 07:08 It was really hard. And I was using ChatGPT extensively to write API calls and to build it out. But I kept running into technical issues and I just didn't know how to solve them. 07:19 And so, you know, bring on an engineer and then bring that engineer full time. And then bring on a customer success person, you know, just growing the technical capability of the team. 07:26 I mean, I think that was really big for us, just kind of breaking through. And now to the point where we're really kind of rocking. 07:31 We have a pretty big part to program. We've synced tens of millions of records. I think we're, I think we're in a really great spot today. 07:37 But getting here was definitely a lot of work for sure. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I, I've been working closely with one of my best friends on his SaaS company, and it's very similar to what you're saying. 07:51 He struggled a lot with the, are we a SaaS with a service company inside of it? Or are we a true SaaS? 08:01 And we need to get this service piece, agency piece out of here, which he did take that path, but it sounds similar to you, where you kind of was kind of doing both with it. 08:11 He was like, you know, I want to go all in on the SaaS. So that's really interesting, because it seems to be a common thread about people kind of struggle with that, especially if you came from an agency angle. 08:25 Yeah. So, but I mean, there's been some benefits. So like, we do some things that when I talk to other software founders, they find unbelievable. 08:34 And maybe these are things that don't scale, but like we have Slack channels with all of our agency partners. And you know, So we do things that we really try to put service and put the customer first and the user first. 08:44 And I think that's allowed us to learn and it gives us a little bit of grace. I think, I spend a lot of time focusing on the growth side of the business, not trying to make the product perfect, but trying to understand the market and where there's pain points in running outbound campaigns and then thinking 08:58 that data back. And so I think the flip side is that if you can just kind of gut it out, there are some really cool things you can do if you understand the product and you understand customers and spend a lot of time talking to them. 09:12 Where I can see a technical founder might get caught, like just writing a lot of code and it's like, yeah, but nobody's ever going to use that feature actually. 09:20 But you know, it's, you know, all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail and so you just kind of think like another feature, another feature. 09:25 So yeah, I think there's pros and cons. Love that. You read the lean startup before? Yeah, I mean, years ago, but yeah, similar concepts, you know, and both sides can get trapped on it. 09:37 So yeah, for sure, totally. Cool, man. I mean, the only thing that's true for sure is that it's just hard. 09:43 Yeah, I get that. I love to talk about that while we're on the topic about outbound sync. So how does outbound sync actually integrate with platforms like HubSpot? 09:58 And do you guys do sales force as well? Yep. Okay. So I'll have flat and sales force to actually streamline that outbound process. 10:06 What does it look like? Yeah. So I think that the most important thing is that when people are sending these outbound campaigns, there's just activities, there's events that are happening. 10:16 Emails are being sent, replies are being generated. Those replies have a disposition, you know, someone's interested or not. And so what we work on is just syncing those as like an activity feed over into the CRM. 10:28 So we're logging those, we're updating or creating contacts and companies in HubSpot or in Salesforce, we're potentially either using the lead object or we're using accounts and contacts. 10:38 But the idea is basically just getting that data over. And there's really three main pain points that we're solving for. 10:43 It's like logging and routing those replies, attributing revenue so you can see of outbounds working or not and then maintaining block lists so that you make sure you're not emailing your assistant customers. 10:53 So when people want their outbound tool to talk to their CRM, those are the three things that they want generally out of our integration. 11:01 So yeah. Awesome. There's a lot of money in syncing. I know I worked with an organization, actually a company I worked for prior to starting the agency and everything else. 11:18 And it was about HubSpot five years ago. And we had to sink tons of the fusion soft data and striped data. 11:25 And HubSpot payments wasn't, I don't even think it. I think it just came out. It didn't have a good like two-way sink or any connections in it. 11:36 And man, we spent a lot of money. It took about a year, year and a half almost to connect everything and get it synced up. 11:42 So it's a huge pain point for sure. So, when you get the activities over, could you want to take me through like a typical use case that you're like, this is by far like the biggest needle mover for our clients when it comes to actually having that data in a home spot? 12:05 Yeah. Well, I think that if you have a sales team And, you know, you're thinking about the sales rep experience. 12:14 What we find is that people are a lot of times working with agencies to help them build these outbound engines. 12:20 Because these tools are very complicated. So, if you're talking about using clay and list building and writing copy and creating infrastructure for deliverability, it's just a lot to manage. 12:32 And so, where users tend to find outbound sync, think is that they want their salespeople to focus on selling. And so they will often lean on an agency, not always, but maybe there will be an internal person to run the campaign infrastructure, but get those emails going out the door. 12:50 And then as replies come in, we'd get that reply, log it, route it to the sales rep. And then potentially do some enrichment, potentially do some AI workflow to like summarize the conversation to date or suggest a reply or something like that to save that rev time so they can just focus on who's this 13:08 customer, what happened, how can I engage with them? Should I pick up the phone? Should I reach out to them on social and connect with them that way or some other network? 13:15 And so that's where we, I think that's like the most common thing that we see. The other one is attribution. 13:22 You know, we want to see if app bound is working or not. And so by syncing all this data over, we can see if, for example, contact converts, but they didn't actually reply to the email, but they ended up converting anyway because they came in through the website, or they forwarded in someone else at 13:37 the company ends up converting. And we're going to count that as I don't find an influence pipeline. But it's not always this straight line for when that attribution event occurs, right? 13:49 And so building out reporting that's showing influence pipeline inside of a dashboard inside of hotspot or Salesforce, so that they can see where I'm just having an impact on pipeline generation. 14:01 Those are kind of the two main things and what that looks like kind of step-by-step. Amazing. You mentioned AI in there and it's kind of summarizing long threads potentially or doing some deep research and figuring out more about the prospects. 14:19 So let's talk a little bit about AI, what is like your favorite, if you have one tool to pick, you can only keep one AI tool on the planet right now in its current state. 14:29 What would it be? Well, I mean, personally, I just use ChatGPT, I just have it open all the time, it's basically my co-founder. 14:39 But for our users, where we fit in AI is that we're actually not an AI company, really. We don't have an AI product, we don't actually have AI in our products at all, but what What we do is we operate on the data layer. 14:53 So our job is to get that data into the system of record in exactly the way HubSpot and Salesforce want it so that when people are hooking up the new HubSpot MCP server, or if they're using Breeze in a workflow, or if they're using AgentForce, those tools know where to look and everything that we've 15:15 logged is logged correctly and categorized correctly in all the fields and properties are set correctly so that it can do its job. 15:23 So I see us as an enabler. We get that data in there and whether a human is reading it or an LLM is reading it, that's kind of like a second question. 15:31 I do think that as people start to integrate their systems more in order to apply these use cases, I do think the value of what OutboundSync does goes up because if you don't have the data in there, you can't feed into an LLM, which means you can't have it make decisions for you or automate things or 15:47 save you time. So that's kind of where our product sits, but for us as a company, I personally use ChatGPT a lot. 15:54 Our dev team uses Curstor and Windsorf. We also use a product called Aikido that uses AI to basically scan vulnerability reports and different things like that that come in from our upstream packages and software that we're developing and kind of clean that up to save our developers time. 16:11 That's a really important part of our tech stack from a development perspective. So yeah, those are probably the main things that we're doing today. 16:19 Awesome. How much time do you think it saves your devs having AI now? I don't know. Honestly. I mean, we've always been lean because we're small. 16:30 You know, we only work on a few things at a time, and we just kind of get them out the door. 16:33 Yeah. I think that. I think that it's been really helpful for Salesforce, especially. It's been Salesforce's API is very complicated. 16:42 And it's very difficult to, you know, make sure they're not creating duplicates and things like that. And so I think that I think they found that to be particularly helpful, just kind of that's like a little enabling piece along the way as some tricky questions come up. 16:56 I think we're going to be using it continues to continue to be using it. I think it's going to be a big part of our part of what we do. 17:01 But I do believe really firmly in, you know, humans being the ones that are reviewing and pushing code into production, I, you know, we make an infrastructure product. 17:09 And so it's really important that our product works. People expect it to work. And so I think it's very powerful, but I would say, we're not like vibe coding things into production. 17:20 That's good. Yeah. Yeah. The thing I always speak a lot about with when it comes to AI is context. And the context is everything. 17:29 Regardless if it's development, if it's copyrighting, there still has to be someone to put the guardrails on to provide the context. 17:37 And I don't think that's going away any time soon, especially when it comes to systems, because I think there's still, at least from what I've seen, there's still this missing layer of UX and design and the actual structure of the code and the system itself, when it comes those vibe coding stuff. 18:05 So you can get it to look pretty good, you can get it to function pretty good. But a lot of times when a real developer, you know, a real talented developer would go in there, they would wonder what in the world was going on and who wrote this code. 18:22 So yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I think it's very exciting. And I think that I think there's also risks associated with it. 18:31 I mean, we have, I mean, we have SOC 2 type II attestations. So we went through a pretty rigorous process to like have the way that we develop and ship code, you know, we follow a process. 18:44 We follow rules around that because because we write the system of record and we have access. We have read right access to systems of record for companies that are pretty big. 18:54 You know, So they have thousands of employees mid-market companies that have made promises to their customers and to their partners about how they manage their environment. 19:05 And so, you know, I think we take our responsibility pretty seriously there and that's why we invested a lot in security. 19:11 Even though we're a small team, you know, that was like one of the early things that we did when we joined TinySeed as it's invested in that and I think it's been an absolutely worthwhile and that's something that we're always going to, I would say probably over-invest in relative to our size because 19:24 of the nature of what we do. It's just a really important thing. Yeah. What would you say when it comes to AI, is there anything you're like, not fear, but I? 19:35 What scares you a little bit about AI? If anything. Well, I think that people are overconfident in the outputs that they're getting from it sometimes. 19:46 I mean, I think it's exceptional, but you know, I've personally had very bad experiences with customer support from AI tools where it's telling me things that are not true to do. 20:02 And I mean, I'm a power user of software. I'm very familiar with the tools that we use. And so if I'm in, if I'm in a support environment, it's what I found is that every single time I've had one of these like really frustrating experiences, it's because I've found a bug. 20:17 And so the AI doesn't know it's a bug. And these are companies that don't have status pages, They don't have, they don't have a report, you know, so, I mean, I guess the answer I would say as well, it just needs more and more and more and more context and feed it more and feed it more and feed it more 20:29 and there's this infinite, but I don't know. Anyway, so that is a thing that I've had a negative experience on as a user, as a customer, where it's like telling me to do something and I know it's not going to work, but had I listened, I would have wasted like 15 minutes troubleshooting something that 20:44 had nothing to do with the problem. So that's kind of frustrating to me. I think that like having a human in the loop with AI support is a totally different thing. 20:51 Having a developer in the loop with AI support is a totally different thing. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think AI is great. 21:00 I think it's not going anywhere, but I think that people are overconfident in some of these uses. And I think they're not thinking about the consequences. 21:06 And so having an expert on your team or an external resource that you bring in to help you build out agents or workflow, agentic workflows or whatever, just to make sure that you have those guardrails. 21:16 And for someone that knows enough to say, we're asking too much here, just have it do this part of the job and that'll save you enough time. 21:24 But you don't have to automate the whole thing. I think that teams and companies need to do that. Otherwise, they just might really frustrate their customers and I think that's not a good thing. 21:36 Yeah, I find it amplifies laziness a lot of people, which is scary sometimes because Because if someone is lazy and now they have a tool that can help them do their work and they already were lazy, the odds of them checking the work is unlikely. 21:57 And I think that's where a lot of those issues arise is it's information that they should have checked before sending it, maybe they got it from Chat GPT and they didn't check it. 22:07 And that one scares me quite a bit, you know, because you do have parameters around, you know, how people use that. 22:17 A question for you, because we have been, well, I won't tell you yet, I wanna hear your answer. Have you seen a improvement or degradation of chat GBT's responses and use or the last, let's say, four weeks, six weeks. 22:41 Yeah, it depends. I've definitely, I've overall, I would say it's been relatively the same, but I have had these like outlier response things that have been coming back, where I'm like, this is annoying. 22:57 This doesn't work. This isn't useful. That have been a little bit frustrating. And that's kind of like part of why I say like, you got to have somebody check in this stuff, because it's like, you know, so yeah, I would say it's a little spotty. 23:10 I've been trying different models. People have been talking a lot about clawed, so I've been looking at, I mean, I tried clawed like years ago, but I didn't ever really like fully adopted it for whatever reason. 23:20 I just got it more into chat GPT. So I think having multiple things that you can lean on is probably an interesting thing, but I don't have enough. 23:27 I haven't been doing that yet. I want to because of MCP. I want to be able to try out MCP servers and, you know, anthropic develop that. 23:33 So, but yeah, I've noticed recently like some little things that are off, but I don't know if it if in these chat windows If the context window is like if it's just too much going on I need to kind of start fresh or what I try to manage the memory But that feels like very manual, but I go into the memory 23:47 sometimes and I delete things that I think aren't helpful or outdated But I don't know. I mean this stuff's happening so fast. 23:53 I don't even necessarily consider myself Like an overall AI expert, but I do think I know how to use it to start and grow a company but I wouldn't enjoy myself an AI expert in and of itself if that makes sense. 24:04 I mean, that's what this podcast really is about, right? It's like getting the insights and opinions from different people using AI at different levels. 24:12 You know, we've had guests that are launching AI companies. We've had guests that had never used AI before. You know, and then I'm somewhere in the middle where we're doing some really cool AI agents, you know, and my pretty good, you know, chat GPT user. 24:27 But I definitely am not the developer, you know, of, you know, any type, anything ML, but we have, at least I have been seeing a huge uptick in like hallucinations in chat GPT. 24:40 I'm really weird ones where like, I'm like, please don't do this. And then it like does that exact thing. And I'm like, hey, like, I just asked you not to do this, you know, and it's just get stuck in this loop. 24:51 And I was pretty recent. Yeah, so I've been asking people lately and I put an Instagram post up and said, hey, if you guys, you know, seen an uptick in this and it was the most popular Instagram story I've posted in like the last six months. 25:06 I had like, I want to say like 35 responses to it like, yes, we're doing the same thing. It's crazy, so it's really interesting to me that AI could decide almost at any time to to go run off into its own little world. 25:24 Like, you know, it could, in theory, decide to just degrade it. So, you know, like, it's a weird concept or to like manipulate, if it wanted to, and people wouldn't even know. 25:41 There was actually a post, I think Joe Rogan actually reposted it, but it was one of our buddies that did an I come back or he did a thing on the Reddit. 25:51 There was a company that did like a Reddit study and like, you know, showed that it was six times more effective at convincing people To change their opinion on something So yeah, it's pretty wild As a non-technical founder without a you know, I'm a co-founder part like a technical co-founder Chat TBC 26:11 is basically my co-founder. Amazing. So with that I guess Yes, what were some technical hurdles that you ran into trying to build a software, especially before you brought in engineers and there's initial stages, what were some of the biggest technical challenges, how would you get around those, how 26:33 would you solve that? Yeah, I mean, this data sync problem is just a lot harder, I think, than people realize on the surface. 26:40 I think people think, oh, okay, well, I could use make, I could use Zapier, and I thought that too, the first version of OutboundSync, I built with make.com and I was like, oh yeah, this is going to be so easy. 26:51 And then I was like literally three in the morning and I'm troubleshooting why this API call isn't working. So I mean, it's just like getting data to format and you're going between like, you know, you've got email data, which is HTML and then you're switching that to something that has to be JSON compatible 27:05 for an API call. And I can definitely help, it can get you a certain amount of the way, but there were certain problems that just a regular or not regular, I think our engineer effort is exceptional for our size, but you know, someone who knows software is like, oh yeah, no problem, fix, done, where 27:23 it's like holy cow. I spent like two weeks losing sleep over that, trying to figure that out, but it was worth it because you know, I basically was like, do customers have this problem? 27:36 I will just kind of get the basic as basic version of I can out the door. But there was just these weird nooks and crannies around data compatibility and data formatting and stuff like that that were just really difficult. 27:46 And then like, you know, in a perfect world, the problem I think I have a lot with a lot of this AI dependent stuff is that there's very limited error handling. 27:58 So if you build, if you use an AI to like read some API documentation and then you write something based on that, you know, there's this assumption that the documentation that you're it is correct, but what if it's not, or what if the data that you're getting is inconsistent, you know, and then like, 28:15 I mean, the deal with the thing with these support use cases that I'm in is that the company has a bug, the documentation doesn't reflect that. 28:22 I don't know if they didn't test it or they did test it or what. The status page does not reflect that there's a bug. 28:27 Their engineering team is saying there's not a bug, but there is a bug and I can see it and I'm proving it and I'm showing it. 28:32 And then they eventually were like, oh yeah, okay, we've been able to replicate this. So, like, there's a conflict of interest problem for an LLM in this situation, like, who does it believe? 28:44 Yeah. Does it believe the company who's paying it or does it believe the user? And historically, in some of these use cases, the customer success, they actually have like a little bit of an antagonistic relationship sometimes, sometimes with internal teams. 28:56 Their job is to be the voice of the customer, and sometimes their job is to be a little annoying to internal teams and to say, hey, you know what, this is a problem. 29:02 I know you say it's fine, but customers are trying us, it's not. And when you automate all that, like, what are you losing? 29:09 And so, you know, that's a, that's a challenge. It's led to challenges. I mean, when, when, when I'm dealing with other companies, when it's internal, we are able to flatten that out a little bit more, but yeah, like assuming that the data will always be what they say it will be if you're building an 29:24 integration product, like that's just not true. Like we just dealt with a bug where every once in a while randomly, a timestamp, instead of having three millisecond digits on it, it has two. 29:33 No idea why, but Salesforce requires three. And so that would break these API calls from being successful in Salesforce. And it's like why did the upstream data provider do that? 29:43 I have no idea, it's not documented anywhere. So I think when things go wrong, they can go catastrophically wrong without some person checking and monitoring and implementing fixes. 29:55 And if it's dependent on the information that's provided to it, that like you said earlier, like it amplifies laziness, is it's just working off of what it has. 30:04 And so if the company has imperfect or incomplete documentation, that's amplified by whatever LLM is reading that documentation, you know? 30:12 So. And then regurgitation, because it's relearning as other people are posting about it, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it can become a problem pretty quickly. 30:22 And that's what agentic is really interesting to me because, you know, the question would be like, hey, is there a world where, you know, you know, a genetic, for example, might solve that problem because you can say, hey, go do this thing, right? 30:35 And it'll go do it and see the error. And they're like, oh, yeah, this is happening. And it's not a documentation. 30:41 So, you know, in the near future, there might be, you know, it might be a little better when it comes to things like that, but I have no idea. 30:48 And it happens. Well, I mean, I'm optimistic overall, I'm very optimistic about the use cases and that things will continue to get better. 30:56 You know, but I think to say everything is great now I was just not my experience. For sure. Yeah. And to your point with the bugs, I mean, it's so true because there's two specific cases with our clients where we were using this one dialer that were kind of like a partner of when we use a lot and I 31:14 was feeding HubSpot numbers into it. And the numbers were supposed to be like international format, no spaces, whatever. I find out that HubSpot actually wasn't putting them in that format. 31:26 And so the data going in was wrong. And then I find out that it was causing us not to be able to delete the numbers out of like removal from the diver. 31:36 Now, but then I was like, wait a second. If I put it in wrong and I pull it out wrong, like technically that's what went in. 31:44 So I go, I mean, I so much trying to figure this out. I find out basically what's happening is they had, you know, a piece of Python code, the diver did. 31:52 So when you put the wrong phone number in, and it's actually fixing the phone number. Phone. When you delete the phone number, they don't have that IP code on it. 32:03 So they would remove all the spaces and clean up the phone number when you put it in, and then I would go to remove it with the same number that I put in, but it's been cleaned. 32:11 So I can't pull it back out. So it is those small things where, I mean, had I not just sat there and looked at so many examples I was like, why is he actually, how was this possible? 32:24 It shouldn't be possible. AI would have never figured that out, at least to current state. There's no way. So yeah, and then another one was pretty simple. 32:36 I had to do with HubSpot 2, which was, they were pulling an IP country. And the IP country was supposed to be correct based on all this, they did a lot of work to get it right. 32:49 And I was supposed to use it for another workflow, had I assumed that it was correct, my whole work would have been broken, but I went in there and I'm like, sorry, look, are these actually right? 33:01 Turns out like 98% of them were wrong. So that human touch is super, super important, but cool. Well, I know we're coming up on time, man. 33:13 I want to be respectful of your time. I really appreciate you, you know, setting this side. One question I want to ask, and for my listeners to know, what do you see as like the future of outbound sync? 33:26 And then what is the feature that you're most excited about in the product roadmap for you guys over the next few months, years, whatever, and maybe? 33:37 Yeah, well, I tend to live life a few weeks at a time around here. We don't have long-term roadmaps, because things have changed quickly. 33:47 But, you know, where big picture where I think things are going is the same problem that we've identified with email as a channel is also true for other channels, like, like, like, DIN or, you know, B2B social and phone. 33:59 And so, you know, we found the integrations in these other channels are not great. And then, beyond that, there's really a lack of ability to have, like, essentially a switchboard between these channels. 34:10 So, if you think about what OutboundSync is doing, we essentially attach or connect these point solutions to main systems of record, where there's workflow automation, there's assignment of things, there's like a system of action, there is potentially AI being fed off of this pool of data. 34:28 We sit there in the middle between a point solution and the CRM, but what we're finding is that there's opportunity potentially to help manage workflow between point solutions. 34:37 So, if I make a call and someone answers, I want to automatically stop my email campaign to that person, right? 34:46 Because I don't want to email them because they just answered, I just talked to them, like we're good. They're now moving forward in a pipeline, you know, they're going to create a new dealer, convert the lead to an SQL or whatever. 34:57 And so, that's where I think there's some really interesting opportunity for us to help teams out and do some interesting things. 35:03 So, that's what we're thinking about right now, and I think there's a lot of opportunity there. And then, you know, we're looking at having our own API for our own data that's sitting in the middle. 35:13 We're sitting on over 25 million records now. And so, and that's growing every day. And so it's like if we make that data available for tools kind of between tools, that also gives us the ability to potentially have our own MCP server and to make that data really accessible for people. 35:29 So I mean, I think while we don't have specific plans, I really think over the next three to six months, that's going to be what we're really thinking about. 35:36 Amazing. That's a pretty incredible that the other tools I'm excited to see what you guys come up with. You know, we have, I have probably like five that come top of mind right away that there's just very poor communication, you know, I mean, like I'm barely able to create a, you know, a call record 35:52 for a kid to go in and it's still a little sketchy, you know, um, you know, HubSpot's really, really buggy when it comes to like, you know, the information It needs and so I'm excited to see that and I might be able to connect you with some some great people too that you know, you could have some great 36:10 success. You know with some of those future products that you're integrating. But awesome man. Well for our listeners, what's the best way to learn more about out outbound sync and get in touch with you specifically? 36:24 Is it linked in YouTube? Yeah, for sure. So just outboundsync.com, s-y-n-c C. And I'm on social. My name is Harris Kenny. 36:35 Feel free to look me up there. We do have a YouTube channel. If you like YouTube, you can look up outboundsync there. 36:39 We have a YouTube channel as well. And yeah, man. And yeah, appreciate the chat. You know, you're an operator. You're doing this stuff every day. 36:46 And so it's fun to hear about it from your perspective and thanks for having me on the pod. Yeah. Of course, man, we'll put your links in the description of the podcast for everyone and go check it out. 36:59 I know I definitely have some people that struggle with these same things. So it's cool to find solutions and hear your perspective on AI and you know how you're using it to help build your business. 37:10 So it's pretty amazing. And yeah, thanks for being on the show and we'll see you next time. Okay, man. Talk soon. 37:18 Thanks. Yes.

Updated HubSpot App Marketplace listing: What’s new in OutboundSync

Tue, 27 May 2025 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync is the ONLY purpose-built app for Smartlead, Instantly, or EmailBison. So, we’ve refreshed OutboundSync's listing on the HubSpot App Marketplace! Since launching as an app partner at INBOUND 2024, OutboundSync has been downloaded hundreds of times by teams looking to log outbound replies, route leads, attribute revenue, and dynamically update blocklists in HubSpot. ## Watch ## Transcript 0:00 Hey, I'm excited to share that we have updated our HubSpot App Marketplace listing. So if you go to the HubSpot App Marketplace, and I'll show you how to do that now, you can search for OutboundSync, and you'll find us there. 0:15 Now, we've been listed in the HubSpot App Marketplace since, uh, Inbound last year, so Inbound 2024, and we've been able to attend as an app partner, which was awesome. 0:26 But you can see that we're listed here, and what's new in our listing is that we're now showing off all of our new integrations since the last time that this was updated. 0:34 And, uh, you can see that now we've been downloaded hundreds of times, so we're getting some cool little recommendations on the, uh, on the screen here, with a little widget showing, like, how many people have downloaded, you know, customers that have downloaded applications like ours. 0:50 And so, yeah, we're also focusing more on workflows, and really specific jobs to be done for our customers. So, the first one is logging and routing replies from your outbound campaigns. 1:01 Next one is attributing revenue, seeing what's working, what's not, and then updating block lists. Of course, we've got a lot of other specific HubSpot stuff, like triggering workflows, um, but you can You can see how all of that works and you can see all of our search results. 1:12 So, OutboundSync is, I think, the best way to integrate your outbound campaigns in Smart Lead, Instantly, and Email Bison with HubSpot. 1:23 So, we're really proud to be a HubSpot app partner. If you're using Salesforce, we do also support Salesforce. So, you can go through HubSpot, through HubSpot's Data Sync, or you can go directly to Salesforce. 1:33 But, a lot of our customers actually do everything entirely. In HubSpot, using multiple hubs. And, uh, yeah. So, go check it out. 1:41 You can see we've got those main features I described earlier, how they work. We've got our SOC 2, Type 2 compliance, which is also new. 1:47 Uh, we've got tens of millions of records synced, and then we've got a lot of great reviews. Uh, including from partners, from end users, and then, you know, it explains exactly how it works. 1:56 It's also got our new pricing on here. And, uh, I think a little bit more accurate pricing. Uh, listing, in terms of where we fit in, and how OutboundSync works, and what we're an alternative to, you know, really how it works as an alternative to things like Zapier, or Make, or N8N, uh, for this really 2:14 specific use case of logging outbound data. So, check it out. Thank you so much to the HubSpot App Marketplace team. 2:21 It got approved within 24 hours, which was awesome. And, uh, probably a little easier, because we were already listed, and we were just updating it, but, yeah, they just do a great job, they did a great job giving us feedback the first time around, and if you're considering building a HubSpot App, I 2:35 really can't recommend highly enough. They've been great to work with, and, uh, just really appreciate HubSpot, and, uh, and the opportunity to work with HubSpot users. 2:41 So, anyway, here we go. Thanks for watching, and, uh, we'll see you in the next one.

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep10: CRM Choices (HubSpot vs Salesforce)

Tue, 20 May 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this episode, the hosts explore key aspects of building a tech startup, including choosing the right CRM, developing a product-led growth motion, and refining pricing strategies. They share real-world challenges with tools like Stripe, discuss how market uncertainty influences decision-making, and examine how AI can be used effectively to scale operations. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Harris Kenny (00:00.112) We'll see what you can say. Brendan Tolleson (00:02.179) We'll cut that out, but hey, what's up guys? You're on the episode of Gunnarock Crossroads. Zach, we missed you last week. Or I guess Harris just joked that he did not miss you, but I missed you, Zach. So it's good to see your face. Zach Vidibor (00:04.077) Okay. Zach Vidibor (00:13.614) Missed you guys. Harris Kenny (00:16.272) I didn't miss Zach because I signed up for Octave. And so I am in the process of ramping up our messaging and making it what I think is gonna be way, way freaking better. So I felt like I was with you, you know, in spirit and in product and, know. Zach Vidibor (00:34.158) I must say getting to that slack notification at the end of the day for the new user signups that one hit me here man. That was fun to see. Harris Kenny (00:43.928) I'm excited. Our outbound function as we talked a little bit is like, it's not our number one growth lever ironically, but it is important and it's something we do. so I'm excited to, cause it's come a long way. Messaging stuff has come a long way in last few years. It's pretty dizzying, I think. So anyway, I felt like I was with you. It's my point. Brendan Tolleson (01:03.897) Zach, did you buy outbound sync yet? is that? Zach Vidibor (01:06.734) I haven't. Harris Kenny (01:06.992) Well, he has a free tier, so he has a much better, more friendly adoption model because we are small. But I do suspect we'll sign Zach Vidibor (01:10.818) We will get there. I need to hire this damn sales team and get some more help first and get myself. I was being, what's the right word? Not scolded, but close to that word. One of our investors, he's like, you are too in the business. You need to be on top of the business. like, I know, we're getting there. Need to hire some people. Brendan Tolleson (01:12.311) Yeah. Harris Kenny (01:39.354) Yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day. Zach Vidibor (01:41.42) Right, and then tools, more outbound, we're gonna need to sync it, no doubt. Harris Kenny (01:46.236) For sure. Actually, what do you use? Maybe this is, I hope you don't mind me asking, what do you use for your CRM at Octave? Zach Vidibor (01:56.226) We are a little bit of HubSpot and transparently we are exploring now, do we continue with HubSpot or do we have HubSpot and Salesforce? And actually, curious, you guys, consult me. We are going to be a product-led sales motion. So where we have this, you know. decent clip and growing number of users that sign up, varying degrees of qualified. You know, like we have some people that are, you know, you're a student and you sign up with your, know, .edu address and like, okay, we can toss those right out, you know, have a good fun experience, but like that's fine, you know, and then we have. Brendan Tolleson (02:40.079) I'm Zach Vidibor (02:45.302) large enterprises and so we're trying to figure out do we need to treat those two buckets separately of like HubSpot being more in charge of closer to top of funnel, the marketing automation and all the life cycle processes with the leads that are signing up for the app and then do we pull into Salesforce when we have a... more significant opportunity that we're going to lead a more direct sales motion with. And so that's kind of what we're exploring right now. like, yeah, curious your guys thoughts on like what you like, what you would say, huh? Brendan Tolleson (03:19.999) It's like a discovery call for me. It's like a discovery call for me. This is great. Zach Vidibor (03:24.334) Bring it on. I'm an open book. Brendan Tolleson (03:29.743) What about Salesforce? guess, I really am about to get a discovery call, which I need to be careful of. I won't do a discovery call sales pitch because I don't think anyone wants to hear that, but I'll get to the conclusion. The conclusion would be HubSpot can do both a PLG motion and a... Zach Vidibor (03:37.1) No, let's do it. Brendan Tolleson (03:50.967) enterprise deal motion. I think it's more of an education element of understanding what functionality you were looking for that you see in Salesforce because I shouldn't say undoubtedly, but I'd say more than likely HubSpot has it. If I was doing a discovery, I'd ask you a lot of questions to lead to that outcome, but that's where I would position you to. think where we, especially with investors too, there's almost like a why bother notion with HubSpot and that eventually you just need to move on to Salesforce and so you might as do it now. But I think that's an outdated thinking and their husband's functionality has gotten pretty comparable with very few exceptions. Zach Vidibor (04:27.064) Yeah. I mean, this is an area I'm like, you know, and maybe, you know, take this offline and do the truly put me on the couch and do discovery. But like I do have a admitted, I have some bias coming from like, I've always, every company I've worked at has been Salesforce. And like, Harris Kenny (04:50.396) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (04:50.862) I'm trying, feel like HubSpot, if you're doing a startup, you start with HubSpot. So I've been, I've kind of started us there ourselves, obviously. I'm not a rev ops pro, I'm definitely not a Salesforce pro, I'm definitely not. So I have some like, all right, I know it a little better, I know the ceiling of where I can go with Salesforce more. So I have probably some biases that are like. Brendan Tolleson (04:56.239) Thank Zach Vidibor (05:18.666) leading me that like, okay, like I need this for the easy stuff, but then yeah, I'm gonna need dashboards and MRR versus ARR recording that like only Salesforce, you know, I'm like, I could be totally wrong to your point, but it's like that's where my head is probably just like naturally pulling me. Harris Kenny (05:35.58) Hmm. Brendan Tolleson (05:35.631) And that's, I mean, that's where we started the business. Cause I, on the same way, all my backgrounds in Salesforce and all our initial customers that we sold are your persona of like, Hey, I'm scaling a technology company. All I know is Salesforce. starting on HubSpot. Like I can't scale with me. That's like, that is, is a valid concern and understandable one. I think it's just, it's more of one of those things where kind of that, like three years ago, we're doing this. It was like, Hey, this is totally like. a feature problem and now it's not a feature problem, it's an education problem. And so we are happy to have that conversation because I think it's a fun one. mean, Haris, you've been in both sides for, I mean, you support both. Zach Vidibor (06:14.552) We start. Harris Kenny (06:18.012) Yeah, yeah, so I mean, I'll say like, to me, like, there's a couple things, I think this is just an interesting, you know, it's not just about Octave, I think this is just like obviously a much, much bigger question about, you know, blue versus orange. Which the fact that it's even that is an incredible accomplishment by HubSpot because Salesforce literally coined the term CRM, you know, I think that HubSpot has done it. And I think that, you if you asked anybody at Salesforce who's being honest, think that's like, yeah, respect. Like you've, you've done a good job getting yourself into the conversation. So I think regardless that in of itself is kind of fun, interesting to me. And it's funny watching like Addy. The reason I asked was cause people have been talking about Addy a little bit lately and it's interesting cause it's modular, but you know, I've just been wondering if it seems like a really solid product. And so, you know, no shade to them at all. I think it looks really interesting and really smart. People like it, but I do feel like I was about in Salesforce is kind of the default conversation. And I think that the like second, the third place is it's like far down in terms of what those other tools can do right now. So the two things that I heard that I had like no tend to know a little bit more about are like, okay, we're PLG. So we've got these new signups coming up and there's this like, I think an idea of like, where do the not yet or unqualified leads, like where do they go? And so we've been, we're about to launch support for the lead object in Salesforce and the way the HubSpot handles the lead object and the way Salesforce handles the lead object are very different. You know, in Salesforce, the lead object, in my understanding, is that it's kind of like, that's like your filter, everybody good, like in theory, if you're following the Salesforce product, everyone gets dumped into a lead and then like, so all of your setups would get dumped into the lead object. And then there would be this like decision point of like, okay, there's a conversion event. It becomes an account and a contact. And then we would kind of have opportunities or deals associated with those accounts and contacts. Whereas with HubSpot, the data model is like companies and contacts exist. And then like a lead is like a pre deal where there's like an event where there's like a lead event. And now this contact who I already know, I already have their email address. Harris Kenny (08:36.634) they just signed up for my product or they just triggered some like usage threshold threshold and now it's a lead for my sales team to follow up with them and say, hey, it looks like in Octave, you just tried to spin up your X number of ICP, you know, and like looking at, it looks like you're in CPG. Well, we work with this company that has this use case. Like you want to hop on a call, we can talk about it. So I think like. from the top of funnel perspective. then others, like a lot of companies use both and they use HubSpot as the catching ground. They have all the marketing stuff in there and then there's this triggering event where then it gets pushed into Salesforce from there. I think that like that funny enough seems to be like a lot of times the answer is like both. I've not heard people like switch completely because they don't necessarily want to use Pardot or Marketo or something like that. It does seem like HubSpot sticks around, but there's some of these workflows and where the other one that I hear is like revenue recognition where it can be. harder to get like MRR and stuff like that inside of HubSpot. That is an area where it seems like the, like, I mean, we're tiny, so I just use ChartMogul. But if I needed that data in HubSpot, I don't know. I tried integrating a Stripe and it was two months and it was just a nightmare. So I do think there are some areas where it's like a legit thing that Salesforce is better at certain things, I think. Maybe there's workarounds, maybe there's a better way to do it, but anyway, that's kind of my rambling reaction to kind what we talked about so far. Zach Vidibor (10:04.055) Yeah, let's keep the pain lid covered on Stripe Brendan Tolleson (10:07.959) Yeah. Harris Kenny (10:10.14) Yeah, I thought they were supposed to be the easy ones. It was like you're supposed to be the hero. Zach Vidibor (10:14.382) I swear to God I like I I had like oh I'm starting this company and like we're gonna integrate with stripe at some point I'm gonna get to like be a user of like the world's best Startup like the world's best private company and like now we're I can't believe this is how it works. This is Brendan Tolleson (10:33.317) you Zach Vidibor (10:33.868) This is painful. I mean, and some stuff, Brennan, we're like, you know, deals we're selling with your team and like, we're trying to do the right things and do like, you know, we're small, but trying to start to get advanced and do like, sell through Co-Sell stuff and like subscription management within Stripe is just, it's... mind-boggling how difficult it is. And like you can't you can't make a mistake on anything. Again, now I said we shouldn't open this and now I'm doing that but it's like you can't make a mistake, you mess up on anything, it creates churn if you have to cancel something and it's like what is that but I'm an admin that's can I tell you that's not churn? Anyways. Brendan Tolleson (11:10.921) You Harris Kenny (11:11.819) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you're, I mean, no offense to Stripe, but it was like, you were supposed to be different. I've had a very, it's been really tricky for us working with it too. It's like, I thought you easy. Maybe they are easy. Maybe it's better to compare to. Zach Vidibor (11:19.486) Yeah. Right. If you sell t-shirts on like a Shopify store, think it's like, you are golden. Harris Kenny (11:26.94) But I thought it was like made for SAS. Maybe it's better than bill.com and maybe we need to go spend a week trying to integrate with bill.com and then we'll change our minds. I don't know. Brendan Tolleson (11:27.225) Thank Brendan Tolleson (11:39.119) Well, yeah, that kind of goes back to like, how do you think about your go-to-market motions and like the one-time recurring and usage? I mean, those are like the three big ones that we think about. Yes, there's like, how do you acquire the customers? Like in terms of, are we product led? we, you know, one stage, two stage, ABM, et cetera. But like, those are like the three core concepts as far as how transactions occur. Yeah. And Stripe is a, I mean, they all have their flaws, but they're, Harris Kenny (12:05.648) Yeah, yeah. Brendan Tolleson (12:08.577) Anyways, Harris, how was your past week, Harris Kenny (12:13.436) Things are good. yeah, it's funny enough. It's a big Salesforce sprint for us right now. We've got three big features that we're pushing out. So our Salesforce integration will be out of beta. The way we do product is when I say beta, it's like we build features kind of one at a time. We kind of round out the integration rather than like a version one of everything and then a version two of everything that's more polished. So we did like. accounts and contacts and then logging activities to the email object. Then we added the task object and then we added, you know, block lists. Then we added writing to the lead object. And then like once that kind of full set of features is like, they're all good. Then I consider it out of beta cause it's just kind of like allows us to ship faster and sell faster. Cause not every customer needs every feature just because of the nature of what we do. So it'll be out of beta, but like we've had stable customers on Salesforce for a few months and who are really happy. So that's like my, so that's a big one for me. And then new pricing, which we had talked about, went live on that and it has gone exceptionally well. I've got like seven demos today, tomorrow, deals are closing much faster and the like pricing part of the call is not awkward as it used to be. Where like they're wondering why, I'm wondering why it is what it is. And then we're like, okay, but like these tiers, like kind of makes sense, but I don't understand what half of these features are. So we just like boiled it. Way down. There's probably like 95 % fewer words on the page and boiled it down to like the usage metric metric is how many emails you send and receive. And I think that this, can talk about it, whatever you guys want, we can talk, I have to talk about it more, but I feel like this is the thing that I think that I've got this right enough that it's what we need to like. Zach Vidibor (14:00.302) So was the unlock, was it changing the metric or just more clearly getting rid, like we have one metric and get rid of all the other stuff or is it like actually a new metric? Harris Kenny (14:00.988) grow a lot from here. Harris Kenny (14:10.968) Yeah, well, we changed the metric. But before it was kind of like the usage tiers were so one tier was like 40,000 events, a webhook payloads event a month, which nobody really understood what that meant. I mean, I understand what it means, but you know, I'm the loser that's been working on this for two years. And then the next year up was like 400,000 events. And so really it was mostly feature gating, but people didn't really know what the features were. the funny thing is I never felt comfortable enforcing it. So if they were like, look, like I just really want to log this to the task. Like that's just like how I use Salesforce. In theory, I was supposed to be charging them more for that, but like I never, it just felt like I shouldn't. It never felt like reasonable. I understand in general why feature gates exist. In the case of our product as a data sync product, it was like, look, our job is to get you the data. What you do with it once it's in your system is kind of your thing. It's not really, we change like six characters in an API call. It doesn't really change anything for us. So it was changing the metric and then just being like, whatever, we're not gonna charge for that. you know, if you're gonna do, yeah, and so just like being okay, being like, that's not the thing to charge for. Because I noticed on a few bigger deals that we closed, it was always because they were higher volume. And so when I said, yeah, it's 800 MRR or whatever, 800 a month, they were like, yeah, that's fine. Like I'm sending 100 and whatever, thousand plus emails a month. Like I get that that costs you money. Yeah, so it was changing it and simplifying it. When a call was going great and I just had to understand what was going on, I would ask people, what's your sending volume? And they were always able to answer it very easily. And so when we changed that to the biometric, everything got easier. Because everybody thinks about it in those terms for our product. So that was the unlock. We'll see, I mean could be regretting this in a month, but so far it's been night and day. Brendan Tolleson (16:03.343) You mentioned, yeah, it sounds like it's helping once you have the deal in terms of conversion rate. So it like the conversion rate is increasing, which is awesome. You mentioned seven, I think it was seven demos. Is that more than normal or is that? Okay. Harris Kenny (16:18.428) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our site conversion is also up. So we're booking more demos from the pricing page. It's the second most visited site page on our site. First is the homepage. And then, you know, this whatever, I don't remember what interval this was, but let's just say it was 800 visits. And then the, and then the pricing page was like 450. And then the product page was like 150 or whatever. So it's like, you know, it's dropped off pretty dramatically, but it's like homepage pricing page. And so that pricing page conversion is, is way up. from before. We don't have a freemium thing like you guys have built, so it's a little bit of different mechanic than what you have. Zach Vidibor (16:56.558) like interesting that like that gut check of like the it's like I know what that feels like ooh is this hard to stand behind like it's it's like I really like pricing is there's a psychological component to it too that's Harris Kenny (17:03.516) You Harris Kenny (17:08.794) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (17:10.094) And it's like, yeah. Ooh. Like what am I? I'm having to really like contort myself here to explain this is like a good like, we need to go back to the joint. It's funny. I remember at like social back in the day, like one of the things I on the sales team there, like one of the things I loved was like, they were ruthless about pricing, like until you got into their like, you are a strategic key account. was like literally here are package one, two, three, and four with a preset discount. And then here's our volume. Harris Kenny (17:14.844) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (17:18.223) you Harris Kenny (17:18.704) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (17:40.4) discounting list. That's the, you know, it's like no negotiations. Like here's how it works. How many pages do you want ads on? How many job slots? And I was like, and it was just like, as a sales rep, like I just remember the feeling of like, oh, like this is so easy. I know exactly what to say. You can call anybody at this company. You're to get the same answer. You know, it's like, there's like all these like psychological components that like go into that too. And it's like, I've like, I've like, Harris Kenny (17:44.57) Mmm. Harris Kenny (17:48.988) Hmm. Harris Kenny (17:55.215) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (18:00.099) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (18:05.954) We've definitely, we're on like V3 of our pricing already. And it's like, it's definitely, that's like, it's like, Ooh, you can feel it in your gut where you're just like, this isn't right. Like you say, keep going with like what's simple, easy. It's in the customer's like universe of understanding too, where they're not like, you're not making, I needed to calculate some new metric to bring to me. Then they're just like, I don't, I don't know what that is. Harris Kenny (18:12.688) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (18:22.086) Holy. Harris Kenny (18:29.752) Exactly. Yeah, I think social's are good, right? So if I'm hiring, how many jobs, you know, if I'm running ads, how many impressions or whatever, those are, yeah. And then for sales nav, how many seats, how many sales reps do you have, right? Like all of those are, it makes sense. Oh yeah, I've got three people, three seats. We were weird because we were sandwiched between the sequencer and the CRM who have different models. And so, but ultimately I was like, look, we're like, I mean, we're not like Snowflake, but I mean, if you had to say we're more like a Snowflake or whatever. Zach Vidibor (18:48.942) Yeah. Harris Kenny (18:57.958) We're utility, we build the pipe, we charge for how much water runs through the pipe. And when I looked at like other data products and I saw like segment and how their pricing pages worked, it was like, we need to be like that. I mean, it's a little different, but like we need to move in that direction. And approximated.app was a really great one. talked to the founder of Carter. I talked to him a bunch. He was super, super helpful. And they have a hardcore like pure usage. We didn't go to pure usage, but it's approximated to, know, to, pun intended, but it's approximately their... approximately a usage-based model with some overages, and then we incorporated rollovers from clay, which people are now familiar with. So we definitely stole some notes from clay too, which we talk about a lot on the pod, but yeah. Brendan Tolleson (19:37.369) Yeah, going back to the switching topics a little bit, but connecting it with the idea of psychology and even pricing to an extent. How you know this is not a political commentary. The question is more about with markets and uncertainty. I'm just curious to see how what you guys are seeing, what you're monitoring, because I'm sure similar to the folks listening this episode, we're all kind of. Seeing like just trying to figure out what's going on, and so I just love to get you all's perspective on. Harris Kenny (20:03.846) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (20:06.799) hey, here's how we're approaching it, here's what we're seeing even in our core business to help us navigate this. I think that'd be maybe an interesting segment for us to park on for a sec. Zach Vidibor (20:18.702) I'd say, I guess I'm glad I'm not out fundraising right now. Like the macro, like in the part of the snow globe I'm floating in, like that would probably be like where the macro is like, know, appetite is chilled there for sure. And like I hear that with people I'm talking to. In terms of our customers, I haven't felt it yet. Harris Kenny (20:25.19) Hehehe. Zach Vidibor (20:47.726) We're, you know, we're still, we're not immune from it, but we're still small. It's early days. You know, it's like the, the companies I'm dealing with, they're still going to grow. And like, they're still trying to, you know, like use case. Number one for us is like, Hey, we're sending static dusty templates that are the same to everybody. Like we got to change that even more in a tougher environment. Right. So it's like, Harris Kenny (21:13.904) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (21:15.214) I haven't, yeah, honestly, it hasn't come into our conversations yet. It's not that I'm not prepared for it and thinking about it. It's definitely, we're all osmosing it to some degree, but yeah, I'd say the nature of our product is still, yeah, you can sign up for free. You can have a cool, you're able to get a lot more out of it, Harris, because like, You know the ecosystem, you know CRM, you know Clay, you're familiar with the API and like, if we give you a JSON payload to like minute, like you're, you're going to need more Dane. And like our product is still a bit like that. So it's like, we are like, you have to be a growing, you know, not at the bleeding edge, but like front of the pack type customer. So Harris Kenny (22:08.56) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (22:10.006) they're a little more insulated. That's what we're experiencing, but I don't know, Harris, I'm curious what you're seeing. Harris Kenny (22:17.308) I well, I definitely have heard the same about the fundraising environment. I have a buddy who's... What is it? A GP. Like he runs a fund. He helps run a fund and they're having a hard time finding LPs, the investors, for their next round. He said it's like three times harder than it needs to be because of uncertainty. So I think that's like a thing, obviously. I mean, I've been following CNBC just kind of out of curiosity. Also, because I took a bunch of the normal sites off my phone, because I was just checking the news too much and I was like, okay, business news is always a little bit kind of sanitized. It's a little less like, you know. Cause I wanna know what's going on, but I don't need to know like every little thing. On the business side, so this is like, I'm cautious to like make this point, but I mean, I feel like, I mean, we're a three person company. Fundamentally, while I'm very privileged, if I'm gonna like build a business, things need to be changing in the economy. People need to be doing things differently. There needs to be like this, movement if things are like static and the people who are currently winning keep winning for whatever whatever that means whatever it's like if the current structure doesn't change and there's no room for a startup or for like a new way or a different way and so like Fundamentally are my company exists because people are open to doing things in a different way And I think when there's a lot of change happening, there's a lot more opportunity there's like the extreme of this where you sound like kind of like Peter Littlefinger from Game of Thrones, where you're like, chaos is a ladder. And somebody, I think he wasn't trying to be critical, but this could be interpreted multiple ways. He was like, you know, kind of remind me of like Rick's Cafe in Casablanca, you know, that like they have this restaurant and like, like anybody can eat there, like either side of the conflict can eat there. And they're just like, they're just happy to serve them or whatever. And so like, not that, not that this is quite like that, but I worry about the like moral ambiguity of the, of what I'm stating. I'm not saying no matter, Zach Vidibor (24:24.736) arms deal. Harris Kenny (24:25.604) Yeah, right. Yeah, as long as people are buying, I'm selling. So I'm not saying that, but I do believe that as someone who's not currently in a dominant position in our system, to move, things have to change. There has to be movement. If everything's stuck, then there's no movement, right? So fundamentally, so we are continuing to grow just like we have grown. Every single month is just like the months before. We've had some leads come in with a very high level of urgency because they have opportunities that they're pursuing and we facilitate that. I'm sure others are dealing with a lot of uncertainty where it's less the case. But like everyone's always trying to grow and yeah, anyway, so very complicated. That's kind of how I'm processing what's going on right now. Does that make sense without sounding like weird? Zach Vidibor (25:15.598) something. Yeah, like some degree of entropy is like that is required in our world. Yeah. Right. Harris Kenny (25:21.492) It's required. Otherwise, there's no thing here. Things have to be changing. And if things are changing more rapidly, as long as they're not collapsing, then that can be good. Brendan Tolleson (25:34.179) Yeah, with any type of disruption there are winners and losers and especially. Zach Vidibor (25:36.75) What do you see in Brendan? Like are there bigger projects? I'm curious. Harris Kenny (25:38.492) Yeah, you have a lot of visibility. What do you think? Brendan Tolleson (25:42.255) I would say, I mean, are absolutely, I'm absolutely monitoring it. Cause we, it's pretty, so I'd say this, we, mean, there's directed and direct, when I say direct, there are companies like immediate right now that we look at who are impacted by policies. So. thinking of anything as a tariff related that have hard goods. But there's also the indirect impact of both the psychology but also the trickle effect of the market that's gonna impact even the software side, like where you guys are. So, I look every week, we look at like. indicators and so I look at hey how many qualified deals are we seeing week over week is that you know on track or behind or is it ahead and then we're looking at I'm looking at the product distribution of like understanding the budgetary mindset of our prospects like are we seeing a this like fixed project mindset as opposed to what we typically see which is more of a managed service mindset where we're a fractional resource for them and then of course looking at retention so we are monitoring it I would say what we are seeing is actually our demand hasn't been impacted, thankfully. And in fact, we're ahead of plan, which is good. I am seeing a little bit more distribution on the, how do we tighten our budget versus kind of going all in on some things. So that's been an emerging trend that I'm watching. And the retention side has thankfully been pretty stable so far. So it's a bit of a wait and see. I... I do think it's something that it'd be foolish not to be monitoring it. But that's how we are at least taking some proactive measures at least to see the data. Now what do we do with that data? That's a totally different question. But that's where we're at. And yeah, so I think, and then to your earlier points, Zach, the companies that have a... Brendan Tolleson (27:35.885) compelling offer that gets into how do I scale without constraints? Meaning how do I continue to grow my business without the cost associated with that or at least the assumed cost of like people and whatnot should have a competitive advantage. that's a lot of what HubSpot talked about at their spotlight event last week is just. What is AI, like what's the true unlock of AI? And that's that whole scale without constraints that I was just mentioning. So it's an interesting time to say the least. I mean, the 90 day reprieve, will be, I think it'll be interesting to see what happens in 90 days. Cause I think there's a little bit of optimism, but no one really knows. uncertainty creates a lot of disruption. Harris Kenny (28:17.372) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not a political commentator, but I think that fundamentally it was once again a change election and things are changing. I don't know if they're changing for the better, for the worse, time will tell. And that affects the economy and that affects clearly the global economy. mean, if you're at talking to people in Europe, because we have users all over the world, there's just a lot of people are feeling that. It kind of reminds me of back in the... 2020 days where it feels like there's this kind of global event happening and everyone's kind of like processing What does this mean and how do I respond and stuff? It's obviously different, but it reminds me of that. There's just like shockwave that's happening Brendan Tolleson (29:02.763) Well guys, I know we're about at time so I'll give you guys any final words that either you have as we kind of wrap up as it relates to what's on your mind, what was going on last week or something you're looking forward to going into rest of week. Zach Vidibor (29:17.698) Hope everybody got their taxes in or filed their extension. No, this was fun. I liked it. I felt a little more open-ended talking about a bunch of stuff. So it a fun chat. Brendan Tolleson (29:20.141) Yeah. Harris Kenny (29:30.992) We filed early, hire a good accountant. I finally, after I started going to work for myself in 2019, I finally found a great accountant. Shout out to him. I'm not going to say his name because I don't want everybody to go and work with him and then raise my rates. And I don't know if he wants that kind of exposure. He's a pretty private guy. You're right. Fixed mindset. I need a growth mindset. Zach Vidibor (29:33.294) Yeah Zach Vidibor (29:41.582) You Brendan Tolleson (29:44.175) You just need a workout arrangement. For the referrals, you get a kicker or your rate goes down. This should be a win-win. Zach Vidibor (29:56.44) Hahaha Harris Kenny (29:57.565) I'm sure he would disagree. would say, I don't want to go with mindset. I want our accounting to be boring. I said, yes, I agree, Michael. I'll give you a hint. His name is Michael. Yeah, he's the best. So got our taxes filed, feels great. But mean pricing, people say this all the time, but having experienced it, pricing is this incredible lever for your business. I mean, frankly, like you may not need to run up on campaigns. You might not need to have on sync. Brendan Tolleson (30:02.75) Okay. Harris Kenny (30:22.138) you might need to just like look at your pricing and make sure it makes sense to users. I have experienced like last week versus this week feels really different. I'm curious to see how it plays out. having heard people say how important pricing is for years and years and years, I feel like I finally just leaned in and made a really big change. And I can definitely feel a difference after being so incrementalist for so long and being afraid to lose and not playing to win. So I think that we... Zach Vidibor (30:48.91) awesome Harris Kenny (30:49.03) So I'm just gonna keep watching that and hope I didn't actually make a huge mistake. Zach Vidibor (30:53.72) Hey, it's very, very, what's the Jeff Bezos? know, very few things are a one-way door, right? Harris Kenny (31:00.088) That's true. That's true. That's true. I can always work for Uber. Brendan Tolleson (31:01.113) Yeah, one way, two ways. I filed my taxes yesterday. Not because my accountant is terrible, but when you have your business and personal all wrapped up together, it is a pain in the booty. So I had to send money to New York and Arizona yesterday, which was a lot of fun. I live in Atlanta, for those who listening, so that was not fun. The only last thought I would have, know, listening to you guys speak and then I mentioned earlier I went to a HubSpot event in New York last week and I just, there's this whole thing around AI that I really liked how HubSpot framed it of like, how do we move from novelty to necessity? And like the two big blockers right now that at least their positioning is accessibility and then impact. And so this idea of like, how do I, like, What step do I even take in the terms of accessibility? I know I should embrace this, but I have no idea what to do. And then the impact side of like, okay, I've invested in all this, but I'm not seeing this transformational impact to my business. And so I've been thinking a lot about that and just realizing like, I think we all know this, but AI is not a silver bullet, even like having Octave. Octave is a great solution, but it still requires human intervention. And so there's like this idea of like, how do we... make sure that we weave the story the right way, that this is an additive enabler, but the human plus AI is where it gets pretty interesting. And I think the idea like set and forget it, cause I have AI is like a fool's errand. And there's just a lot to potentially unpack that for future episodes. But that's something I've been noodling a lot around is even for us thinking about like, do we need to even think about AI embedded service? Idea of like, how do we sit on top of that for, to make it not only accessible, but to create impact, which sounds kind of ironic of like, Hey, you need to have a human and services on top of your AI, but I do think there's something there that we're starting to, I'm starting to play around with in my head. Harris Kenny (32:56.88) This stuff is hard. What y'all do is hard. I have been lately like, I think I need a rev ops person to help me build out and like fix some association things. And like, I should be having something summarizing these things. I know HubSpot makes it easy, but I'm bullish on agencies and experts. I'll just say that. Like, stuff is not easy to adopt, really. And let alone being a big org, I can't imagine. having like 250 employees. Like did you see that really quick? I know we're supposed to hang up, did see the note from the Shopify guy? Toby, not guy, the founder of Shopify. Zach Vidibor (33:33.014) I mean, he probably goes his social profile is probably like the Shopify guy. I'm the car dealership guy. Harris Kenny (33:38.18) Yeah, that's like how people used to brand themselves on Twitter, right? Like I'm the storage guy and, and, know, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, that, how they expect people to kind of like use default AI. thought it was, I usually hate this social stuff that everyone's posting about, but I thought it was really compelling memo. And I thought it was like, to me, it emphasized like how complex this is and I had to really have to change how you think about stuff. Brendan Tolleson (33:40.559) going turn this off. Brendan Tolleson (34:03.554) Yep. Harris Kenny (34:03.9) was awesome. All right, well thanks guys. Brendan Tolleson (34:06.039) Alright guys, good catching up. Enjoy the rest of your week. See y'all. Zach Vidibor (34:09.006) See y'all.

Smartlead features OutboundSync's HubSpot and Salesforce integration

Wed, 14 May 2025 00:00:00 GMT

We’re excited to share that OutboundSync is now officially listed inside the Smartlead app. After years of collaboration, this is a huge milestone—and a sign of how far the outbound community has come. If you’re running Smartlead with HubSpot or Salesforce and care about logging replies, syncing blocklists, and attributing revenue across tools, this is for you. ## Watch ## Transcript 0:00 Hey, just wanted to share something that's been a long time in the works, and check it out. We're in Smartlead's web app in the integrations tab, and you can see OutboundSync officially listed. 0:12 I just want to thank the Smartlead team so much for all the collaboration and work together over the years. Really proud to be featured inside of the app, and if you are a team that's using HubSpot or Salesforce, consider OutboundSync. 0:24 We can get those replies logged for you, we can help you attribute revenue, we can build a bi-directional blocklist sync, we've built a lot of power user features that aren't currently covered by Smartlead's native integration, and that are really difficult, if not impossible, to build with lowcode tools 0:41 , like Zapier, and Make, and n8n, and even Clay. There's just some things that, some use cases and some problems that I think- we really nailed, so check it out. 0:50 Thanks to the Smartlead team, appreciate it, and to celebrate, I think I'm gonna kick off, uh, cold email campaign. So thanks Smartlead team, and I'll see you all in the primary inbox. 0:59 Thanks. ## Learn more Interested in learning more? Click the following links to discover OutboundSync's Smartlead HubSpot integration and Smartlead Salesforce integration.

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep9: Navigating the Pricing Landscape in SaaS

Fri, 09 May 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this episode of GTM Crossroads, Brendan, Harris, and guest host Rob dive into the evolving landscape of pricing strategy in SaaS and services. They unpack the real-world implications of usage-based pricing, the role of buyer psychology, and how to position value clearly without causing confusion. The conversation highlights the power of retention, the difference between experience and impact, and how long-term relationships often lead to business returns years later. They also explore the trade-offs between capturing value and driving adoption, the limitations of results-based pricing models, and why traction often matters more than perfection. The episode wraps with a look at RevPartners' new DIY product, built to serve the SMB segment with speed, autonomy, and best-in-class RevOps frameworks. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Brendan Tolleson (00:01.277) Gentlemen, welcome back for another episode of Going to Market Crossroads. I've got my man Harris here, of course, and there's a new guy, the mayor of Inbound, unofficial mayor, excuse me. Rob, are you going by a different title with Southbound coming up? Do we need to be mindful of what to call you? Rob Jones (00:23.064) Whoever's post, I think it was Matt Bolience about this was great. unofficial mayor of inbound, current mayor of southbound, his term limits expired. He will run again in 2025, but there are policies and procedures in place to keep the powers at be. So that's where I'm at right now. Brendan Tolleson (00:41.427) Yeah, it sounds like you may be able run for third term, know, things are happening these days. Yeah. Harris Kenny (00:45.216) always campaigning just no matter what. Rob Jones (00:47.598) fingers crossed i mean the campaign trail is warm say blazing and i really you know focused more on masters right now unfortunately tomorrow got got a stack of cash on tiger to now he towards the killings it was a bad bet i never said it was a good bet Brendan Tolleson (01:08.147) That's just what thought, okay. Well good stuff. We missed Zach this week. He's grown up, again, off of space, so he has got some things going on in his side, but Rob is a, or the dictator I should call him now, because there's no more terms, is filling in, and in fact, Rob is gonna be the moderator today, so I will play more of the Zach seat, and Rob is taking my spot, so. Rob, the mantle is yours. Rob Jones (01:39.976) win for the audience I would say because they definitely want to hear from you and not the autocrat of inbound or whatever you know the whatever that is I mean just starting off yeah that's we don't get political on this show Brendan Tolleson (01:42.611) you Brendan Tolleson (01:49.127) benevolent dictator. Brendan Tolleson (01:54.259) you Rob Jones (01:55.406) I mean, just starting off the top, is you kind of made the master's joke, but one of the things that can kind of lead into where the conversation goes is, you know, what's on your mind today? What's going on that I feel like we can discuss? Brendan wanted me to ask what keeps you up at night. We don't have to get there yet, but what's going on in both of your worlds? Harris Kenny (02:17.24) Nobody jump in first, Brendan? Well, two things. And this actually has been keeping me up at night. I have been waking up very early in the morning working on this, which is like our pricing for Outbound Sync. Been in business for two years now. Got a lot of usage data and been picking up some interesting things about like actual adoption of these new tools that we talk about here every week, Smart Lead and Instantly in Clay. And I'm seeing like the actual utilization because a lot of them have these tiers. And then within those tiers, you have like an actual amount that you... Brendan Tolleson (02:18.867) Yeah, go for it. Harris Kenny (02:46.776) use the tool and it's pretty different I've found now looking at our data versus what's listed on pricing on different sites. So yeah, I've been working on that kind of the way I do these kinds of projects is I sort of obsess about it for a few days and I'm back and forth constantly with Chad GPT and I'll get on some calls with people, buddies and customers and just try to hammer through it rather than drag it out. then all this trade stuff for sure. I mean, we don't have to get into all the details of it, but it's affecting. It's it's on my mind a lot. I'm just watching it, watching the updates, seeing what's going on. It's affected our pipeline a little bit in a positive direction. In the outbound space, there's always somebody who's, who's got some kind of opportunity they're pursuing. And when there's a lot of change, there's a lot of people seeing opportunities to run, you know, get in front of new customers. So, yeah, so those are, those are the two things that's not keeping me up at night as much. Cause the pricing, my pricing immediately affects my. my quality of life within an hour of any change, whereas some of those other things have a bit of a longer tail. Brendan Tolleson (03:49.971) What's keeping me open? I as my wife is calling me twice in a row, which usually means something is important. Let me pause and then I will answer the question. Can I pause this? Is that right? Let's do that. Harris Kenny (03:58.676) Well, yeah, or you can meet yourself and then they can clean it up after. Rob Jones (04:03.116) Yeah, you can mute. We'll come back to you. How do you facilitate a roll? handling it well. Yeah, so pricing. think a wise man once said that pricing isn't sexy to talk about, but it solves so much. What specifically have you figured out works, doesn't work, that's maybe something to experiment with that you don't really have data on? Can you talk through that a little bit? Because it's more interesting than I think you'd think. And there's a good reason that it could be keeping you up at night, right? Is if you can get it figured out more so, then that solves a lot of problems. Harris Kenny (04:35.96) So totally. we did a pre-seed round with Tiny Seed about a year ago. Tiny Seed's like a bootstrapped accelerator. And Rob Walling, the founder, he says over and over again, which is very similar to the quote that you just mentioned, pricing is the biggest lever that you have in SaaS, basically, to change your business. And I attended MicroConf in New Orleans a month ago or something like that. And a guy spoke there named Marcos Rivera. He has a book called Street Pricing and he did pricing for Vista Equity Partners, I think it is. It's a private equity firm that does really big deals and they sometimes take public companies private and stuff. And so, yeah, I've just been kind of thinking about it a lot. I think, to me, the biggest thing for us with pricing was there were, this is our third era of the pricing conversation. First era was like, the price doesn't, does anybody care about this at all, regardless of price? And then the second era was, can I charge a high enough price that I can find the people that really care about it enough that they're willing to pay maybe more than it should be, or just in high enough sticker price of three to four to 500 plus, up to $1,500 a month? And now we're entering the third era, which I think is gonna be... usage-based and a little bit more informed by what's going on in the market. And I think that's much, much easier for people to understand so that they can map what they think they need to do with what we do and how we charge for it. So that's kind of the third era that we're going into right now. And I think to me, it's been really the number one thing I've been focusing on is the value metric of like, what are we charging for? What is the one thing that when you do more of it, you pay us more and how you think about it in your terms. And so I could talk more about that, but that's the biggest thing. But I think for RP, it's been interesting seeing the approach to onboarding and how that's different and the cohort process and everything like that. So I'd be curious to talk about that too, because that's pretty unusual, I think, in the services space. And we haven't talked about that here on the pod at all, but I'm also curious to talk about that, because I'm curious how that's going and how that's being received. And it seems like, I think pricing can be a place for innovation. Harris Kenny (06:55.307) sure. Brendan Tolleson (06:56.977) Yeah, are you alluding to the self-service? Yeah, yeah. Harris Kenny (07:00.182) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wasn't sure the exact terminology that you'd want to mislabel it. Brendan Tolleson (07:05.139) It depends who you talk to. Some people in our organization don't know acronyms, so they say the wrong thing. yeah, we use DIY, like do-it-yourself, as well as self-service. Product-led, human-assisted. I don't really know what we're gonna like. We're kind of testing messages to see what works, but in theory, it's a DIY product. But yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. Was the question what keeps me up at night, Rob? Is that where we started? Rob Jones (07:32.14) Yeah, and then you took a hopefully carry is okay and the house is no other issues there. But it was that and Harris mentioned pricing and then it was, think I followed up with your quote, by the way, the wise man was you pricing isn't sexy to talk about, but it can solve so much. And Harris kind of was like, yes, wisest man I've ever heard. Don't know who said that quote, but that's kind of where we were. And just specifically in relation to DIY, some of the higher tier packages that we offer, you know, it'd be interesting to Brendan Tolleson (07:36.967) Rob Jones (08:02.064) compare, contrast, and kind of talk about value versus perceived value, and how do you create demand kind of using price as a lever. Brendan Tolleson (08:08.337) Yeah. Well, it definitely was about how stuff and it never seems to stop. So, but we're OK. I think, you know, it's funny, my wife, this is speaking of wise quotes like a. A problem a money can solve is not a true problem. It's what she reminds me of. I don't know if I buy that yet, but I'm telling myself that. So it feels like a big problem every day. Talk about stressor. Outside of like getting the sewage out of my house, what keeps me up at night. There are a few things. I am like. The thing that I've been balancing recently. Is like, I'm really proud of the team, like. pausing to celebrate, being very proud of what we've done in Q1, even posted about it social today. Like the team did fantastic, all phases of the organization. It was a really fun meeting to share that with the team. But I'm also like looking ahead and like we've got to continue to execute. And so it's just trying to figure out how to balance the message of celebratory, but like we can't keep our eye off the ball. We got a lot to do. And so that's something that I'm, excuse me. And within that it's, hey, what do we need to like focus on? Like what are those levers that really will move that needle for us to hit Q2? So that's very much top of mind for me. But I would love to talk about pricing because I have a lot of thoughts on our evolution on pricing as it relates to our service. And then to where you were going Harris, as we think about launching this new product. So that's a very fun and top of mind topic that I would love to unpack further. Rob Jones (09:51.554) Yeah, he kind of mentioned that. I would say the question for me is more, he talked in about Marco Riviera street pricing, a lot of being informed, right, with the data and what people or customers that you're talking with are telling you almost competitive analysis. Is there a distribution to that of like how you go about figuring out pricing from kind of the data, experimenting with things other people are doing, competitive analysis, so taking people in the same field or in the same category and then just undercut it? How do you think through that as a founder whenever getting it right could be so impactful to the board? Brendan Tolleson (10:33.053) Well, here's how we start because you just went through this process with a change in your pricing. Harris Kenny (10:35.744) Yeah, I mean for us, and I think actually this might map a little bit to what you're doing too. I mean, Ableton Sync is fundamentally a data product. So, you know, one of the things you had is two by two matrix. Basically the idea is like you charge for what people see. So if they, it was a two by two matrix where it was like, if it's a high product or low product effort, and then high or low human effort. And so, App on sync, the product is doing a lot of work, but the person is not. And specifically like the example in that, in this two by two is like snowflake is up there, but there are other examples of these data products where it's like how much you're using it now, but you don't have to move towards pure usage based. And so for us, like the number, the conversation, like what I found out colloquially ask is what's your volume? How many emails are you sending? And. It seems like it's a really good question because it captures a lot of things. It captures like how much data are you able to generate or how many inboxes do you have or what's your capacity to send things out, but also like what's the size of your TAM, also like how big is your team, like all of those things kind of, in the outbound side, they get boiled down to how much you're sending. And the nice thing also about that question is it's not like a budget question. So people, you know. It's not uncomfortable to talk about. It's like a little bit separated from some other, it's adjacent to, but separated from some sensitive topics. And so I think for me, for us, focusing on that, it's also allowing us to get away from a conversation that was really hard to have, was, how does this compare to make or Zapier? And it's hard for me to explain, like, well, there's like literally dozens or hundreds of little things that we've shipped that capture that, that make it easier. We started as a low code integration and I would find I would try to acknowledge it and talk about it and people would like, okay, like I trust you, but I still don't, I'm having a hard time understanding it. And so basically we like have stepped away from that and we have put the consideration, the value metric in a term that they're already thinking about, which is how much am I sending? And so now basically if they say, well, I'm going to build this myself from scratch, totally on my own, I can say like you. Harris Kenny (12:55.148) there are lots of this you can do. There's a lot of uncertainty about how you do it. And there are some things you won't be able to do unless you hire a software engineer. And so, because it's like, I can't answer that question for them fully in depth about every single thing that's different and every single thing they're gonna have to think about and every single weird edge case that might come up. So all I can say is like, we think about it the way you think about it. And if you wanna buy a product that solves this problem the way you're thinking about it, that's what we do. You send 10,000 emails a month, we help you get 10,000 emails a month into HubSpot. And that's what we bill for. And that's how this works. And once it's in HubSpot, we have super packages for workflows and reports. have a knowledge base that shows you how it works. have, we have a CSM who's gonna help you use the data or whatever. And so just like the immediate initial reaction we're getting from people is like, okay, you're thinking about this the way I'm thinking about this. The actual price itself is secondary. it from what I'm finding. so anyway, so we were like fighting this asymmetric thing that we were kind of losing because we were getting pulled into this like confusion over like what probably, you know, how do I do this? How would I do it myself? And it's like, that's huge. mean, I've spent two years trying to solve this problem. we're talking for 30 minutes right now. I, I, can't cover that. It's impossible. And so I've found it much better to be like, listen, let me meet you where you're at. Here's how you're thinking about it. And I don't know how that compares to like a CRM implementation. I I ran at Solutions Partner Agency for a little while, but I suspect there's this similar thing of like, okay, so like RP comes in, but like then what? And so I don't know what the equivalent thing is of like when their go live is or how soon their sales reps are finally just in one place instead of seven tabs. I don't know how you translate that, but for me, for us that it seems like it's like, okay. Brendan Tolleson (14:41.287) Yeah, think to quote a southbound keynote speaker, Donald Miller, it's the whole, if you confuse, you lose. And so I you found a way to speak the language of your buyer. And that's kind of like the baseline metric. And I think having something that serves as an anchor to compare it to is really, really valuable. So for us, Like when we first got started, when Matt and I were figuring out how to price for RP, we actually didn't talk about implementations because that wasn't the right way to think about our product line. We were more of a managed service model and talking, it was more of, how do you solve for Robops? Do you hire or do you partner? And so that framed it for that go-to-market leader, whatever that's a VP of sales or a CRO or even a CEO, depending on the organization. they were framing it of, okay, I can think about this as a W2 spend. And so therefore that already sets at least a common understanding of what the price point will be. Because if you compare it to a HubSpot onboarding or implementation, like... You can buy a husband implementation for $3,000 for marketing hub. And like we're charging, you know, in the, some, some instances, $20,000 a month for our service. And it's just like, if you try to base it off of that, you are creating a really too much friction for the buyer. So that's like, I would say. Harris Kenny (15:50.903) Right. Brendan Tolleson (16:08.947) you need to make sure it's consumable and then you need to have a comparison for them to have some appetite for how to know. And then that gets into the differentiation of, why can we charge X percent more or less potentially than other options that are out there? And so that's kind of how we stack it, at least how we started with the services side. This new product that we've come out with is a whole different animal that we can certainly talk about because I'm very excited about it. And Rob, you've been assigned the honor to build that. So we can have a fun competition. Rob Jones (16:45.036) Yeah, any plugs from either of you would help my life out and my OKRs in Q2 a lot. So feel free to just take the rest of this episode to talk about them. Brendan Tolleson (16:53.331) Do you feel a pressure Rob? Because I just said what keeps me up at night is something that you are responsible for. Rob Jones (16:58.678) I've been involved with the last, I don't know, two or three or four primary OKRs, so I think I have built up a little bit of cache when it comes to that. Brendan Tolleson (17:07.123) There's a nice little flex there, you know? Rob Jones (17:09.102) Hey, mean, the mayor of Inbound's got to make money somehow. You said a couple of interesting things there, Brendan. I'd like for you to talk about that, but both of you, the confuse you lose, there's this translative, if that's a word, a translation element that helps speak the customer buyer. And one of the things in demand that I've found difficult, I can only imagine for sales, especially with HubSpot reps, is their assigned territories or they're assigned based on company size, right? SMB mid-market enterprise. you pharmaceutical reps or cars that like I find a lot of other places it's industry or whatever base and that requires a very specific set of to quote Liam Neeson linguistic skills, right? If you're in healthcare, you need to be very familiar with HIPAA. If you're in, you know, you could go on and on. And so I really liked that perspective of speak their language almost translate your offering or your product or the value into what they already see and are familiar with just from a linguistic perspective, but to follow up with a metaphor. think also kind of what you were saying, there's an old story that is a freight liner has got a big issue with it. won't, you something's wrong with this massive ship to make it a little bit shorter. They hired a guy to come out 500 bucks. He worked in toiled for hours. Couldn't fix it. Next guy, a thousand bucks, you know, sent similar. They spent $2,000 on an expert or somebody that was, you know, self-proclaimed could fix the issue. Nobody. And they found this one guy, this old guy that been doing it for years and they engineer he said it was gonna be 30 grand to fix it so they said well I mean it's a two million dollar or more ship whatever the the metaphor says there but the point is it he fixed it in ten minutes and they were like we're not paying you 30 grand for this he was like you're not paying me 30 grand for the ten minutes you're paying me 30 grand for the 30 years it took me to learn how to do this in ten minutes and I think there's an element of what Harris you were saying specifically like some of that you just have to meet them where they are and kind of speak in your terms and all Rob Jones (19:10.04) be able to highlight the value differentiation that you're providing in a way that they can understand. Harris Kenny (19:16.148) Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely found that. feel like it resonates and then you say, and this is what it costs. It's such a different conversation than, at least we'll see. mean, it's early right now, but like the difference already is like night and day feeling like versus what we were doing before. what I was trying to do before where I would kind of talk through it. And I was just like, I was really, really gatekeeping. It's like, you really had to care about this to decide to sign up for our product. Because I was not making it easy for people and I think that like one thing that we've done that's a little I suspect that I know how how hard your team works because we've had some exposure I've had some exposure to that and just seeing the level of delivery Sometimes that means you don't charge for things too, right? Like there are features that I before was like, I'm gonna feature gate this and I'm gonna have to be on a higher plan for this But I found that in practice I just couldn't enforce it Rob Jones (19:45.08) Hmm. Harris Kenny (20:12.418) Cause if they say, I want to be able to do this in HubSpot. I just didn't feel comfortable being like, well, you have to be on this plan. I would always be like, well, fine, that's fine. You can just, I just really want you to use what we're doing. I want you to find it helpful. And so like, maybe that doesn't mean like capturing value at every single point on the curve. There's certain things where like, this is valuable. I know it is, I'm going to charge for it. But there's other things where it's like, listen, this isn't the core thing. And if this is going to make it easier for you to adopt what we're doing, like that's fine. Just, just have it, just take it. So I'm sure like some PE person out there is. squirming or licking their chops thinking about all the like money on it but I feel like that's the other side of it is like Know the value capture the value, but you can't constantly be like trying to get every last thing out of them, you Brendan Tolleson (20:53.171) Yeah, mean, that's something I've been talking to a few of our teams that we've launched. It's not just our DIY product, but I think to where you're going, Harris, is our all-bound product. And we cannot underscore the importance of traction. We've got to get. at BATS, we've got to understand what resonates with the buyer, where they see the value, understand the data. You can always change pricing, but if you don't have traction, then you don't have a product. so, I'm firm believer that go to market and brand is far more valuable than the product. And so we've got to make sure that we understand how to get that traction and the demand to then inform the value of that product. So that would be to your, think where you're going here is my encouragement would be for, and what we're trying to push for is like, get adoption and then we can iterate once we know what the key hooks are and what people are actually using. But if you don't solve for the customer in that sense, then it's going to be a really painful, least I've found it to be very painful. mean, when, when, when Matt and I were starting with even just RP and I know I talked to you about like having at least a like common understanding denominator of how to price. I mean, it's just like get stuff in. Now, is that sustainable? No. But like for the beginning phases like that, unless you have just an amazing product or an amazing ability to market, you got to start somewhere. Rob Jones (22:27.438) I'm in a true RP fashion taking a bunch of notes for next questions. so a couple of ways I can go here, I think. Retention is what keeps I don't know if it's Brendan or his sewers or whatever's going on with his house But I feel like that keeps people up at night too, especially with a services company or subscription based PLG company So something came out yesterday This was a podcast clip from maybe six seven years ago, and it was a study Gary V was in it, but it was it was something published I want to say by HBR whatever it was it said of they did a study among restaurants first-time customers There was a 40 % chance they'd return Second time, if they did return, it was 43%. I think the third time, once they'd been back and experienced that value, there was a 74 % chance of them coming back to the restaurant and almost becoming a regular or becoming one of their spaces. The interesting part of that to me is it takes more at-bats to create the value or the perception of value or experience. Really what we want to create is an experience that drives recurring value. But the food reviews did not line up with that as much. And so there's this question of like, especially with us, maybe Brendan, this is more to you, but how do you, how do you differentiate value based on the actual service or product that it is versus how much value is in the mechanism of delivery, like our operating principles, the way that we go about providing the services themselves. So is there a distinction there between a product slash service versus the overall delivery mechanism, the operating principles? Brendan Tolleson (24:02.707) I think you're capturing two concepts. think there's the experience and there's the impact. And I think they're, we can have a fun debate on which is more important. But I hold this kind of and, like it's an and statement to me. Like those are, if you get the, like if you use a two by two of experience and impact. Like if you get that top right quadrant, like amazing experience and high impact, they're not leaving. And if they do leave, then to your point, you will get that review and that will lead to a community movement of referrals. And one of the things I've been starting to think about, even as you were saying that question, I mean, we're now in our, we're starting our fifth year, I think, at RP. And one of the things I've been, what you triggered for me is like, we need to be thinking more long term. I mean, think about it in five, 10 year increments. And the reason why I say that is even what you just described, Rob, we have people coming back to us that were, didn't use us, haven't been with us for a year or like two years. In fact, there two, was just on a pipeline call and two deals. One stopped working with us a year ago. The other one stopped working with us two years ago and they're coming back. And then there are other ones where they've referred us to another company. It's just like these, there's so much value, even if you don't see any initial engagement by doing those two things well in terms of experience and impact that. I just, the longer the time horizon, the more emphasis I think we put on those things as opposed to how do we extract a transactional benefit to the RP brand as opposed to solving for the customer. So I don't know that answers your question, but that's like very much what I heard you say that that's what I was thinking about. Rob Jones (25:52.918) I mean, I just have a weird follow-up question that's kind of guiding a certain response, but when you say they came back, are you talking about the company or a specific person that engaged with us? Because I know there have been both. Brendan Tolleson (26:03.731) I think in this instance... I think it's the company. It's not that the person didn't go to another company and now he's coming to us, although we have had that. This is at the company level where it's like they, two years later, like, hey, we need this help on this area. And we had a great experience with you all, can you come help us? Rob Jones (26:29.87) Talking about pricing earlier, this is kind of a weird non sequitur. See if I can make it into one. Talking about prioritization, right? Things you're thinking about doing now with DIY as a priority, with margin as a priority, like figuring out pricing, Harris, as to what you were talking about. You probably both know this better than I do, but the whole Warren Buffett, like write down your top 10 things, cut it in half. Cut that in half and then do the one thing. How do you figure out what that one thing is and how often can it change or should it change? Harris Kenny (27:10.486) Well, I think we've talked to this a couple of times, but it depends on your business model. mean, we're bootstrapped. mean, we did a pre-seed round, but it was basically to help me shut down my agency because I've got a young family. And so we have, you know, for whatever reason, they want to eat fruit and berries and yogurt pouches at pretty alarming level. And so I need to keep buying those things. and so it helped us with that, but it really wasn't like, you know, we raised a bunch of money. And so that is, a forcing function for us. And I think pricing is part of that because you can see like, if you focus on closed one deals. one of the things that in that street pricing book is like the idea with street pricing is it's like what happens on the street is real or whatever, right? It's not like something in your head. It's like reality. Sometimes it's gritty or whatever, but it's like it's where rubber hits the road kind of thing, right? And so think when you look at like how you tie like the ability to get someone in the door, If they say yes to things, if they say yes at certain price points and then they use the product, you start to see like where there is, where people value it and what's important to them. And so for us, for example, like agencies were really big. we have had a very successful partner program with agencies because what we do is really complicated and a lot of internal teams just frankly don't have the resources or the time to stand it up. And so in that way we were able to see the, we were able to provide them a service level. Cause I ran AC before the, where I like understood kind of what they were going through and then impact because we're able to help them retain their clients because they could show their clients in HubSpot. Hey, look, this is actually revenue that we impacted for you. Yeah, we got X number of replies, but 2X is actually the pipeline impact because these deals came in through other channels and whatever, And so to me, think pricing is like where someone commits and they say, if you combine pricing with your data, your actual like closed one data, it helps you make prioritization around that. And so we focus on an agency program a lot. And then, and then within that, because we're bootstrapped, like we can only do so many things at a time. So, you know, something where people are getting impacted is social and using social. And so we're looking at how do we support multiple channels with our product as well? Because we can't do a million things. We can't support a million other things. can't, you know, people ask us about a million random CRMs. And right now we're just focused on the ones that Harris Kenny (29:34.966) where we know there's a market, we know there's serious teams, and we know there's an ecosystem that can support it. And I'm sure all these other CRMs are great, but we have limited time. So, I mean, that's kind of how I think about it is like, we try to use those constraints as an advantage to try to just focus on the thing that matters the most to our users. And because we have like a really narrow lane, we can do that. We don't need to be a billion dollar company. So we don't need to solve billion dollar problems. We could just save someone a couple hours a month. If someone said that explicitly to me, they saw the dashboard and they were like, okay, well that alone is gonna save me hours. Let's do it. So it's like, okay, cool, awesome. So that's for me how we use pricing to make decisions, make tough decisions. I there's a lot of stuff I wanna do. I'm a founder, I love to build features. It's the most fun thing in the world, but it's not actually the thing that really sometimes matters to customers. Rob Jones (30:04.333) Right. Brendan Tolleson (30:22.547) you Brendan Tolleson (30:32.829) Yeah, I think the blessing and curse of a founder is that they have lot of ideas. And so how do you narrow focus to maximize impact? And I'm not great at that. To answer, directly answer your question, Rob, and that's why I have a team around me to keep me focused on, we can only do a few things really well. And so what are those things that we want to prioritize of the 20 ideas that you have? So that's the honest answer is that having a team to keep me accountable and to push me to drive focus. mean, you saw Rob, even in the Q1, we hit the numbers in large part because we said we're only do a few things really well. so making sure that we do that again in Q2 of. It doesn't mean we're not doing those things, it's just when do we do them? And so what are the one or two things? Kind of like Rob, you think about the operating principles in the RP way, it's like, hey, we got 40 principles, but no one's gonna remember all 40 principles. So how do we distill it down to the four principles that are in the RP way that everyone can remember? And so it's a similar concept, but how do we apply it to using OKR as an example? How do we use that for what are the priorities for every quarter? I think we're getting better at that, but it's been painful to get to the point where we can do fewer things, but do them well. Rob Jones (31:58.328) There was something that stood out and this is also, I feel like top of everybody's mind. I've heard Darmesh say this. I've seen weird models built for this. It's more for agents, AI and kind of the SaaS. But there's ROAS, is a return on ad spend. There's ROAS, which is RevOps as a Service, kind of the acronym. And then there's a concept of RAAS, which is results as a service, as a pricing model. Harris Kenny (32:23.543) Mm. Rob Jones (32:23.992) What do we think about that? I mean, the extension of that to a managed service company seems not smart. Like it seems like that would be incredibly difficult to figure out and execute. Where do you see the future of that going and when? I mean, I know that's kind of out there. It's been floated. I know people are working on it. To your point earlier about like some P.E. with a handful of money is going to attempt to figure it out. But is that something that you guys have seen to think about? What's your opinion on that? Brendan Tolleson (32:56.179) I conception makes a lot of sense. The idea of a performance-based model, kind of, this idea you're on the same side of the table and you're motivated to achieve the same things. So I think I'm not, mean, in fact, we've looked at it for the Lbound product and I don't think I'm opposed to it. But there is an element, I think it can be. Harris Kenny (32:56.364) I'm... Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (33:20.783) If it's set up properly, I think it makes a lot of sense. At the same time, it can get very contentious, very fast. And so a lot of this is a reaction to, I hate to say it, but bad digital marketing agencies and bad outbound agencies that had vanity metrics that didn't actually tie to outcome. And so people now are, it's a repudiation of that. And they're also just have budgets that are being shrunk. So how do I achieve Harris Kenny (33:37.101) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (33:51.069) revenue and so a performance-based model is a way for that to happen. So I think so long as you have a mutual understanding of what's the definition of success, how do we define metrics, meaning for example, what's an MQL, meaning marketing qualified lead, what's a sales qualified lead. If you have the foundation in place and you have tools like AppOut and Sync that can track that data, then I think it's fine. those things usually don't happen and then it becomes very contentious very fast. Harris Kenny (34:22.6) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean there's a lot nested in that I Mean from our vantage point like I've talked to a PPL paper lead agencies before They run really different businesses, I mean for them I just dropped a little fidget here on my desk For them, you know, they they tend to they they focus on the ones where they know they can get results which is awesome like that makes sense for them. They're optimizing for that. And so they go find those companies where for whatever reason the offer or the channel just hit and they go and they run that and they do extraordinarily well. But I think the problem is a lot of the time it's just like fog of war. You you just don't know. So you have all this uncertainty. I think most companies are in this situation where it's like, sure. I mean, I've heard so many times, if I could put a dollar in and get $2 out, you know, we happy there's there's no limit on the budget. We're like, well, yeah, man, like. Duh, of course, but like nothing, know, not street rising, that's not anything. mean, sure, okay, sure, yes. You know, everybody wants that level of certainty in life, you know. I can't even get my kids to brush their teeth sometimes. So it's just like, know, the simplest things can be a lot harder than you might think. you know, I think like, and so what happens is that a lot of people, a lot of agencies end up. Rob Jones (35:22.734) That's not street pricing. Harris Kenny (35:45.624) doing more of a retainer model and that allows them to scale better and develop better resources. And so they don't have to take the risk associated with the results model. And so they're able to do better work, take on risk of your projects and then actually lower the risk because they're so good at executing. And so like, I think the narrow nature of when pure results budget or model works, it's so narrow that those companies don't scale. And so then who's gonna serve the other everybody else. It seems like it's people that have a different business model that allow them to accrue resources, accrue the human capital, the talent to sift through really complicated problems and come up with better answers than the internal team would have. think a blended model might be like more feasible for a lot of the types of companies that we tend to work with, where you have this like base plus kind of thing. and You know, but it, yeah. Rob Jones (36:41.708) I think kind of to step in, maybe this will help because it's how triggered this. It's kind of like what Brendan was mentioning with impact versus experience. There's results and there are outcomes. Like I would say it's a hot take, but it's a point you could discuss of marketing being the original results as a service that didn't really drive revenue growth. Like we need, you know, 10,000 MQLs or leads here. They are. We actually churned, but you know what I mean? Like there, there wasn't the overall outcome or business impact. Harris Kenny (37:08.781) Mm-hmm. Rob Jones (37:11.632) which is part of what, know, shout out to me, Brendan, Plugin RP, that's what we can help deliver. And I think that's kind of the same approach we take to it. It's less about a specific result and more about a chain of results that leads to this desired business outcome. Brendan Tolleson (37:28.083) Yeah, I think the point, kind of your Megan Harris is that while it's understandable why the buyer wants that, it may be short-sighted of what they actually need. that's why I was mentioning, like, the definitions are really important. because you're right, people will figure out how to gain the system and they will find, hey, okay, that's the North Star Metro they care about. We'll figure out how we can get to that number and just use it and put some really low cost resources to it. it becomes a really bad model. I it's just like you wouldn't, we're very much, I think about the base plus when we're thinking about the variable concept. And it's just like, mean, for us, it's just like an employee. like you wouldn't. you wouldn't do an employee at just a variable only model. But you would do a base variable because it gets that same intent. But you do want somebody that's taking ownership and thinking about it. And I think what we found in what I've told companies in the past when they were prospects for us, like the... we care about retention. like to us, that is a much bigger driver for accountability and value and like serving you well is if we keep you as opposed to like how do we extract the most money out of you on a month to month basis. So that's kind how we've been positioning it more of you want us to be viewed as a partner as opposed to like a mercenary. And those are two very different mindsets and different approaches for how you get served. Rob Jones (39:05.58) Yeah. I mean, I've experienced that both from the sales and demand part. And it's interesting to think about how to position it in sales and then how to translate some of the outcomes people may not even know they need or are looking for to what an offering from us would be. I think we're close to time. I would be remiss if I didn't let Brendan plug and describe DIY here, because it is pretty cool. It solves, to your point about results, impact, value. I think it kind of bridges that gap. And it's all weirdly, it solves for a lot of things that I feel like have happened since COVID, right? Which is like, I don't want to be on another onboarding call out on time. I'd rather, I have some experience. can knock it out. It's like pace at your own pace guided. But Brendan, if you want to, you want to hit us with the, Brendan Tolleson (39:50.803) Sure. Well, yeah, think we'll start first with why we created it. so when we started RP, we had this really silly, it seemed silly at the time, but it's like, we had this big, hairy, audacious goal that we want to be the most strategic and influential partner in the Hustle. And I'd say by and large, we were actually doing a pretty dang good job with that. And one of the things that we talked about, sorry, now that we talked about it, Yamini, this is what Pepsot talks about, is... Hustles has a bimodal strategy and their bimodal strategy is, hey, we want to be able to serve the SMB market and the enterprise market, which is a little bit, it seems a little bit, it's funny because we talked about focus earlier and those are two very different markets. So like, how do you do that? Well, and so we wanted to figure out how we could solve both the corporate kind of commercial segment, meaning 250 employees, 2000 employees, but also this SMB market. Because whenever you look at Hustles earnings calls, They have about 10,000 customers on a quarter. Now this isn't public, but I would imagine about 80 % of those are in the SMB segment, if not more. And so we were trying to figure out how can we create a solution that allows us to do the SMB market, but also the enterprise market. And so what we thought through was, our core practice is going to be more for the upmarket, but there's this huge market down below that we want to be able to serve. And so that's what kind of... started this idea of how can we create a low cost offer, like high value, low touch offer that would resonate with that market. And so that's what we try to solve for. And we realized kind of the buyer behavior is in that segment is like, hey, I would really love a frictionless buying experience where I don't have to talk to an agency and that I can actually have this implementation embedded inside my HubSpot instance so that I am actually doing it on on my platform, on my timeline. And that's, and Super actually allowed us to be able to do that. And so that's what we launched. so it's really more for the SMB market. Persona is either kind of like a VP of sales that's at an early stage, could be a director of sales who doesn't have the budget to bring on somebody like us. And so they have to do it themselves. And so giving them best practices and playbooks that we've built over the last four years, that they have access to those resources so they can build quickly. Brendan Tolleson (42:18.579) ultimately scale their organization. And so that's what it is at high level. And then we price it actually below what HubSpot chart is for onboarding. So you're getting a frictionless buying experience, you're getting best practices, and you're getting a fraction of the cost. And so that's the offer. It just came out, and we're pretty dang excited about it. Rob Jones (42:39.95) a weird way, you know. to able to democratize revenue operations to make it actionable and accessible. It's kind of a core focus of REV Partners as well. And I have pushed this for a while with REV doctors and all this, what you're democratizing is the expertise and kind of the support. it's very, to me, the metaphor works well with healthcare, right? Like onboarding that's done based on best, it's almost preventative care. You don't need that level yet. So it doesn't, I don't think, because I've kind of struggled with this on how to position it, but I Brendan Tolleson (42:46.823) Yeah. Rob Jones (43:12.184) think it cannibalizes the other. It's just a level of need, readiness, timing, a lot of the stuff that we can't control and making offers that suit both. I think with the intent as like, hey, if almost results based tiering, right? Like if this DIY works, you're probably going to need copper, which is a kind of admin function with, you know, that kind of thing. If you're growing, we... Go ahead. Brendan Tolleson (43:32.359) Yeah, think it's, yeah, it's a value first concept and we can grow with them. And so assuming they continue to their business, then we're here for them. Sorry, my wife's calling for the second time. So this is probably another sewage issue. So I probably need to go. Rob Jones (43:54.05) I would hit the unrecord button. I just figured out my talk track though, so that's good. Harris Kenny (44:00.792) All right, well, do we want to wrap up? Brendan Tolleson (44:03.559) Let's wrap up and I'll call her right back. Rob Jones (44:07.15) You are the producer on that side. Brendan Tolleson (44:12.207) I didn't know if you want to like a concluding thought or I can. Rob Jones (44:15.298) Thanks for tuning in today on another great episode of Go To Market Crossroads with me, your host, the mayor of inbound, Brendan Tolleson and Harris Kenny. We'll see you next time. Stay awesome. Brendan Tolleson (44:26.141) Thanks, Rob. See you here. Sorry, guys. Let me just do this. Harris Kenny (44:27.458) Thanks, Rob. See you,

OutboundSync's Smartlead integration for HubSpot and Salesforce

Wed, 07 May 2025 00:00:00 GMT

If you’re running outbound with Smartlead and syncing with a custom-built low code solution into HubSpot or Salesforce—or not syncing at all—this video is for you. In just a few minutes, Harris Kenny (Founder of OutboundSync) previews how OutboundSync can integrate your CRM with Smartlead, unlocking revenue attribution, workflow automation, and reply handling for sales reps. ## Watch ## Transcript 0:00 Hey there, my name is Harris Kenny, and I'm excited to re-announce OutboundSync's integration between SmartLead and HubSpot and Salesforce. The reason why I say re-announce is that we never really formally announced this as a standalone integration in the first place. 0:18 Over two years ago, I started building a product that would get data from your outbound tools into your HubSpot, but the only sequencer that we supported was Smartlead because I was using SmartLead at the time when I was running my agency. 0:32 Well, it's been a couple of years. Smartlead has come a long way and so has our product. I'm excited to re-introduce you to how it works. 0:40 We've added Salesforce, we've added a lot more features. And so I just want to walk you through all of that over the next couple of minutes. First, let's start with HubSpot. 0:48 First, let's what it does. OutboundSync takes a few critical pieces of information and it allows you to use that data from your outbound campaigns inside of your CRM. 0:58 So, for example, let's say you're in the Smartlead inbox and you're running a campaign and you're getting replies back. There's a lot happening here on the screen. 1:06 We're sending emails, we're generating replies, and then those replies are being categorized as interested. We want to thank that data and we want to push it into HubSpot where we can use workflow automation to update properties, create follow-up tasks, and basically retain the long-term record of what 1:21 happened. If we keep track of every sent email, we can also do things like rebuild Smartlead's reporting, get revenue attribution for leads that convert through other channels, and even support omni-channel workflows like calling or social. 1:34 In order to do this, what we need to do is we need to create a webhook in Smartlead. We're also going to take SmartLead's API key. 1:44 And with those two things, we have everything we need to connect to OutboundSync With HubSpot on the other side, or Salesforce, we'll be able to sync that data bidirectionally between the systems and even take advantage of dynamic block lists where new deals or opportunities and new customers can be 2:00 dynamically blocked and prevented from receiving cold outreach via Smartlead in the first place. Just to show you what it looks like inside of HubSpot, we have an example contact record. 2:09 Now, OutboundSync is using both email activities and timeline events to log these two contacts inside of HubSpot. We're also associating those activities up to the company level. 2:21 And we're writing to a set of custom contact properties that can be used inside of workflows and reports and lists and other things. 2:28 We even pre-package these things for you so that you can hit the ground running, get those dashboards and get those workflows in place. 2:35 Lastly, let's talk about Salesforce. So if you're a SmartLead Salesforce user across both platforms, we're here for you. You can take that data in SmartLead and you can push it to Salesforce in quite a few different ways. 2:48 OutboundSync supports the lead object or writing to accounts and contacts. We can log those activities using the task object with a configurable subject line, or you can use the email message object. 3:01 We also again, support block lists. So you can go from a report in Salesforce up to the block list in SmartLead. 3:07 In addition to all of this, we've invested a ton in our own infrastructure and our own process. OutboundSync is officially SOC2 Type II certified. 3:17 We're helping hundreds of teams sync tens of millions of records, and we would love to help you integrate your outbound motion with your CRM and system of record. 3:26 Reach out today by going to OutboundSync.com to learn more and book a demo. ## Additional resources ### Smartlead HubSpot integration Using Smartlead for outbound and managing contacts in HubSpot? OutboundSync’s Smartlead HubSpot integration brings your outbound data directly into the CRM—accurately and automatically. Log email sends, opens, and replies as timeline events to Contacts and Companies, trigger workflows based on real engagement, and build reports that prove outbound’s impact. ### Smartlead Salesforce integration Running outbound with Smartlead and need it to work seamlessly with Salesforce? OutboundSync’s Smartlead Salesforce integration syncs your campaign activity to Leads, Contacts, or Accounts—logging as Tasks or EmailMessages for full attribution and visibility. Built for scale, it replaces brittle zaps and manual workflows so you can confidently measure what’s working.

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep8: The Human Side of GTM AI Can't Replace

Fri, 25 Apr 2025 00:00:00 GMT

AI is rewriting the rules of go-to-market—but it can’t replace the people who run it. That’s the big through-line in this week’s Go-To-Market Crossroads conversation with founders Harris Kenny (OutboundSync), Zach Vidibor (Octave), and Brendan Tolleson (RevPilot). - MicroConf takeaways. Fresh back from Rob Walling’s MicroConf, Harris shares why bootstrapped founders still obsess over copy, positioning, and face-to-face events—because shipping features ≠ winning customers. - The “everything’s fake” era. The crew calls out inflated ARR screenshots and AI snake-oil: revenue may be easy to model, but trust is hard-earned—and impossible to synthesize. - Pricing in a post-seat world. Zach breaks down Octave’s credit-based approach (“batteries included” PLG) while Harris wrestles with OutboundSync’s high-touch, partner-led tiers. Both agree: the tech risk is lower than ever; packaging and GTM risk are what kill you. - Why events still matter. Inboxes and feeds are automated; relationships aren’t. That’s why the team is doubling down on Southbound (May 21) as a human-first antidote to AI hype. If you’re navigating the tension between automation and authenticity—or debating seat vs. consumption pricing—this episode will hit home. Dive in for candid founder math, battle-tested event tactics, and a reminder that the heart of GTM is still human. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Brendan Tolleson (00:00.775) Gentlemen welcome back to go to market crossroads. I've missed you. It's been about two weeks since our last recording Harris I know you were at a show may we'll start there. How was the event that you were at last week? Harris Kenny (00:12.482) Yeah, I went to Microconf. So we raised a pre-seed round from Tiny Seed. I've been a long time fan of Rob Walling and his Startups for the Rest of Us podcast. And first time I got a chance to go to Microconf and it was awesome. It was like totally what it says on the tin. It was exactly like what I had hoped. And there's like a of bootstrap founders talking about positioning, pricing, kind of scaling the team. And there's like kind of the ongoing joke of like, product focus founders always wanna ship more features. And I was like, maybe you should focus on marketing. So I'm kind of an external processor. I talk a lot sometimes. It's my wife can test, but I left after two days. I was like, I need to just sleep on this. It was just a lot to think about, but the positioning conversation was excellent. Fletch, PMM, think Fletch, yeah, the talk they gave was. Zach Vidibor (01:04.877) Yeah, I know that's good. Harris Kenny (01:08.914) Awesome, Liana patch gave a very good talk on copywriting. So yeah, I left thinking about marketing And kind of how we position and how we talk it was it was great and then we got southbound coming up Ethan from our team is gonna be going to southbound So I'm bullish on events all this like AI kind of stuff I kind of I think it's like being face to face is pretty pretty important Zach Vidibor (01:18.62) Thank you. Zach Vidibor (01:28.019) It becomes almost more valuable and more potent. In a world that's gone virtual and AI-led, it's like the, yeah, can't rip this and anything go to market. It's gonna be a long time before you can rip the soul out of it. There's human psychology at the foundation of all this. Harris Kenny (01:32.439) Yeah. Harris Kenny (01:45.795) Yeah. Harris Kenny (01:50.35) I mean, at some of the companies, even the revenue numbers are fake, That's kind of what we're talking about. Everything's fake, even the books. It's kind of what we're talking about. social lately, feels like. Brendan Tolleson (01:53.421) Yeah Zach Vidibor (01:53.785) Yeah Zach Vidibor (01:59.699) Yeah, mean, yeah, the 11X drama, think, yeah, everybody in the space, I think there was a 0 % surprise. I feel like that was like the world's worst kept secret. Everyone knew those customers weren't real and there's a bloodbath of churn everywhere. But yeah, think it's like, again, whether it's them or anyone else, not to like throw shade, think there is like, there's a class of people that believe like go to market is some riddle that you can like solve in a laboratory, you know, and it's just like, it's different. It's different at each company. There's people involved. is trust involved. There are relationships, you know, it's just like, there's so much art left. And I think, know, the fundamental, whatever happened on the business side, who cares? But it's just like, I think a lot of companies, like they end up setting themselves down the wrong path when it's like, we're just building a thing that has to pass this like sales touring test, you know, and it's just like, it's just not gonna work. You know, like I just, I think any of us who have like done this, you just kind of like laugh at it. You're just like, all right, I guess that's like competition on some level we have to address, but it's just like, I know it's not gonna work. So I'm like not really scared about it. I don't know. Harris Kenny (03:21.336) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (03:21.367) That's a good segue for that segue, but a promotion point for southbound. know Harris, you brought it up and then Zach, you went deep into it, but it really speaks. That's the whole theme and it gets into. Like some things change, but some things stay, like some things always stay the same. And what it's getting into is this idea of connection, the human relationship, the idea of trust. yes, AI is really powerful and we should all embrace how it can be used, but it's, it's not the solution to how you go to market. and so really making sure we have that, front and center of our humans, selling humans and make sure we have that connection being, kind of going back to like Elon Musk first principles, like what are the first principles that go to market? And it's like getting back into that element that I think we've, we have. Over indexed. To your point about art and science, we over indexed to science and it's like, well now how do we get back into this happy medium of leveraging the data, leveraging tools, but using that when we're actually interfacing with the human, which is the art. Zach Vidibor (04:18.971) Right, right, can't rip out the heart and soul of your go-to-market and replace it with AI. know, it's like AI is just yet another tool in the toolbox, you know? And yeah, there's gonna be like increasing leverage because of like the nature of AI, but it's like, yeah, it's not a panacea in and of itself. It's still a, it's an engine, you gotta put a car around it, you know? Brendan Tolleson (04:46.939) Well, Harris, I guess going back to even just your event and thinking about, I mean, you're bootstrapped and what, like, what are, know you mentioned some of the things that you were thinking about from a marketing perspective, but what are some of the key takeaways as relates to go to market or kind of the advice that, that was being shared at that event? mean, Harris Kenny (05:06.371) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (05:07.043) I'd love to start there and I can circle back to something. talked to Liz Christo from Stage 2 recently and just getting her perspective of what's going on in the market that I can kind of wrap that around. be interesting to hear your perspective. Harris Kenny (05:17.9) Yeah, for sure. mean, I think, you know, I mean, one thing I'd love not to like, pat my own back or whatever. But I, I do focus a lot on growth, and our partnerships and our partner relationships. And I did leave after talking to a bunch of other people. feeling like, okay, we're actually further along than I thought in terms of our like actual MRR and our turn is actually pretty low and we have a really nice expansion, revenue expansion that's coming from partners as we like help them deploy App OnSync to more customers. So I left feeling better. think that, you know, it's always like, one more feature, one more feature. I release this feature and then we'll be, know, but I left kind of feeling like, maybe I'm doing a better job of this than I was giving myself credit for. And so I'm thinking about like marketing and partner marketing and more like we've been doing some webinars that have been really like super engaging and really well attended, which everyone kind of laughs at. At least I always thought it was like funny the idea of the webinar. But what my experience is actually been it's it's been really great. I think I'm also thinking about like our pricing. You know, I priced our product a certain way because we like just had to have a certain level of ARPU, but because it was really high touch. But I've had this experience with a couple of users where they come in at a lower price point, they're still discovering this new go-to-market motion. like, they're using some combination of like Octave and Clay and, you know, a smart lead or something like that. And it's just like, it's a lot to get going in the beginning. And so we have basically, our philosophy has been like, we'll get you when you're like really ready to commit. Unless you're working with an agency in which case we have like a different price. But I've been wondering like, as this is moving more into the middle of the bell curve, like, Do we need to have a lower price? It doesn't have to be cheaper, like the unit economics can scale down, but do we need to have an option to let people like dip their toe in? That's like a much, much, much broader thing that I don't know the answer to, but I've been thinking about that. Cause it's like, how do people adopt these new tools? What does that look like? What does the actual evolution look like? And are we leaving some chunk of the market by having such a high bar in terms of the price point for the product, you know, and requiring they have this big team or they'd be working with an RP. Brendan Tolleson (07:29.633) Yeah. Harris Kenny (07:33.048) kind of things. don't know. Anyway, sorry, those are like my random thoughts. Brendan Tolleson (07:36.035) Well, Zach, how has Octave approached that to your point about, you know, for our audience may not be familiar with ARPU, average revenue per customer or per user depending on you look at it, but like getting into what Zach was just saying, Zach, what Harris was just saying, Zach, when you think about Octave's go to market, have you thought through like, do we lower the barrier entry on this side versus having this higher barrier? Because you also have partners that you're working with. I'm curious to how you've thought through that problem. Zach Vidibor (07:58.93) Yeah. We are, I guess, at our soul, not like, we wanna build this hyper. PLG company, but we are definitely like i'd say our core belief is like Product lead is like the way we have to be like in you know in an ai world of like a lot of snake oil and garbage out there like even if it costs us money to have like a and it it does like you know, you can sign up for free and come in and We do a bunch of stuff to like prove like this mousetrap does something it works like check it out and like I think that's a pretty the concept we talk about internally is like, especially in a lot of go-to-market tools, they're like, batteries not included. You buy these systems and they're just empty and you're just like, okay, now what? This didn't do anything. I conceptually understand I need these tools and systems and like what we're doing, we have the opportunity we're trying to take advantage of. Like we can create a batteries included experience. Like, hey, what's your website? Let me start figuring out. Like here's how you might talk to different personas and like we can do a quick proof of value and it costs us money. And we obviously, you know, we're not. Zach Vidibor (09:19.175) We're not gating you on like, need to do a discovery call, like figure some stuff out. We're to let you in and maybe you have a wow aha moment. Maybe you don't and you walk away and like, that's okay. But like, I think on the bias, are more for the like lower the barrier to entry, make it easy to start seeing value, make it easy to start consuming. And then, and then yeah, like we're, we're trying to drive a business and we're going to feature gate you and meter you and all that. But I think we're gravitating more towards the. how do we demonstrate value quickly? How do we show you this thing's real? And then, you know, we're really anchoring around consumption and features versus seats, you know, like in this new world, I think it's much more like that's a much closer proxy for value than like the traditional seat model. Harris Kenny (10:07.565) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (10:09.815) Yeah. Which is, go into that a bit further. Like when you have like consumption, seat, credits, I this is always a fun topic, but, it sounds like what you're saying is I, you're really approaching it more for solve for the customer versus like solve for, not to use a derogatory, like the bean counter looking at the, the value of the company. We'd love to get y'all's thoughts on how to be mindful of even that kind of that, the, the pricing level you just described that could be fun. think not fun, but interesting to unpack that a little bit further. Zach Vidibor (10:40.147) I mean, I think, you know, especially like for us, and I don't think there's like too specific to us, but like, we're like, we kind of have to own it in a way of like, we're saying there's this new paradigm and there's this new way to do outbound and like. Hey, if you just keep hiring SDRs and trying to give them yet another Bazooka launcher, like that isn't gonna work. like, we were going like, hey, you need to buy a Seats of Octave, like for who? Like, you know, like, I think we like kind of have to own it and we have to go like, all right, yeah, like you get value somewhat derived from like how much you use the product and like we need to create the experience and kind of the... pricing and packaging that reflects that. I will say, it's not without its challenges as well. We do have customers that are just like, give me a number. I don't wanna think about credits. I don't know. All we do is buy seats of stuff for our sales and marketing team. Consumption is still a new, for the bean counters, they're like, I don't know how this fits in our model. So we do have customers and we're flexible to it. just like. I need, I got this much to spend, what can I get? You know, like, we can reverse engineer it, but it's, it's, know, like, it's not without its challenges for sure. Brendan Tolleson (12:00.535) Yeah. How about you, how about you Harris? guess, is it more just flat rate or how do you think from a pricing perspective? Harris Kenny (12:05.248) Yeah, I mean, right now we just have these like, basically, you know, it's like, you know, a few hundred bucks a month and up depending on your volume. And it's like, if you have this problem enough where it's important to you to get this data and HubSpot or Salesforce, then you sign up for our product because we've built the best way to do that. But it just doesn't feel like there's like a great logic to the pricing. It's just like, yeah, if I have it, that price works. And then, you know, there's But like I've had people who like they signed up at a lower tier, they set it up and then they're like, okay, it's working. I like the motion, we're going to hire an SDR and I'm so glad I have all this stuff in place already. So that was like some testing I've been doing at a lower price point. And so like looking at octaves pricing, like you do have depending on if it's monthly or annual, you do have a couple options. You do have that option under 200 a month. And I think where we get is like we're in between these tools like HubSpot and Salesforce charge per user, you know, something like a clay. Zach Vidibor (13:00.371) Yeah. Harris Kenny (13:00.542) Charging on per credit and so people are like, yeah, but like okay, we're like the CRM But we're connecting to both and you know, I think like there's a world where we just do like a consum more of a consumption model and it more floats I think like ultimately is like what is the most valuable thing for our users? How do we price in a way that our pricing helps them like make? Like make a decision that makes sense to them I think like right now our pricing does work like we're growing every month, you know, very healthy growth And so I don't feel I need to like necessarily immediately change everything. But I think the version of this company where revenue, you know, where we're a million dollar ARR, we're not there yet. I don't think that this pricing gets us there. And so it's like, what does a mature version of this company look like? That's kind of like what I'm thinking about. It's like we're growing and it's working, but I just feel like it could be better. And if we could have more revenue from customers who value it more than we can spend more on engineering, which is like build a better product. You know, like we don't, I think there's like a tons, tons of problem areas. And so sometimes I feel like resource constrained and I'm like, well, is it because my pricing is dumb? Like if I had better pricing, could I solve these problems for people who want me to solve them? And like by not figuring this out, I'm like not doing my job really, which is like solving problems for customers because I don't want to spend 10, 20, 30 hours just sitting down and coming up with a better pricing model, you know? Brendan Tolleson (14:12.691) All right. Harris Kenny (14:27.854) because it's uncomfortable and annoying and risky kind of thing. Zach Vidibor (14:31.613) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (14:33.315) Well, I think we will. This could be a whole nother long conversation because I pricing is not a small topic. And thinking about evolution of the company and based off your go-to-market motion, we talk about the PLG model, we're talking about the partner. When I say PLG, product-led growth, and there's also the partner-led motion. know both of you guys work with agencies or kind of the end user, but there's like that element that impacts it. There's also company stage, the value that can ultimately dictate pricing. And maybe we'll have to bring that up in another conversation. But Zach, I know you need to go for another Zach Vidibor (14:41.288) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (15:08.054) Any final thoughts on kind of more ad hoc, just around the horn type of conversation as we have three founders building companies? Zach Vidibor (15:17.103) we should, sorry for, I know I'm cutting this one short. I think this is like worthy of like, can go deeper here. I think one of the big things is like an interesting, like macro trend line. like, know a lot of like investors are talking about it as well as like. Technical risk is like really lowering, you know, like when they're like diligence in companies, there's like a lot more belief in the like. the science experiment of like, yeah, like I believe you can build the tech. Where like it used to be 30 years ago, was like, all right, well like if the science experiment works, like we know there's a market for it. And now it's really kind of shifted. It's like there's a lot more belief in like, you'll figure out the tech, but like. Brendan Tolleson (15:48.363) Okay. Zach Vidibor (15:55.121) Can you market it? Can you price it effectively? Can you package it effectively? Do you know your ICP? so like, yeah, like I dig on this. Like I think there's a lot we can like unpack here and yeah, share what we're all like struggling through. And this is a fun one. Brendan Tolleson (16:09.997) Yeah, I mean, the barrier to your point is somewhere I mean, the barrier entry that relates to product development has never been lower. Like you're seeing just the proliferation of smaller shops with fewer people because of what you can do with AI allows for what you're just describing where sales market becomes even more and more relevant. Harris, any final thoughts on your side? Zach Vidibor (16:14.909) bread. Harris Kenny (16:15.075) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (16:25.198) Hmm. No, this is a big one. To be continued. I love these conversations. Brendan Tolleson (16:33.251) Alright gents, well, it's good to see you again. I miss y'all. yeah, southbound, May 21st, hopefully see y'all there. See y'all. Zach Vidibor (16:37.009) Likewise. See you, man.

Advanced Outbound Workflows in HubSpot with Breeze AI and OutboundSync

Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:00:00 GMT

I’m excited to share a unique outbound workflow within HubSpot, powered by Breeze AI. This isn’t just another integration tutorial—what we’re exploring today pushes the boundaries of what’s commonly done with automation inside your CRM. We’re diving into three innovative applications of Breeze AI that could revolutionize how you manage outbound campaigns. Plus, I’ll guide you through activating this beta feature in HubSpot and integrating OutboundSync for enhanced data utility. Whether you’re looking to streamline your sales process or gain better insights from your outreach efforts, this walkthrough is designed to show what's possible right now. ## Watch ## Transcript 00:00 Hey everybody, I'm really excited to share an outbound workflow in HubSpot that's powered by Breeze AI. Now, I have not seen anybody building workflows like this quite yet, and so I hope you learned something, I hope you find it interesting, and it maybe opens your eyes about what's possible, because 00:18 we're going to use Breeze in three different ways in this video, and I'm going to show you how. First, quick heads up. 00:26 This is going to require access to a beta feature in HubSpot, and I'm going to show you how to turn it on. 00:33 So, in your HubSpot account, you want to go to product updates, and then once you've done that, go to in beta, search for Breeze, and we are going to need this Ask Breeze action in workflows. 00:46 That's going to be required. I'm also going to- Thank you. I'm going to show you how we're using Appon data inside of HubSpot to get a summary of the record for the sales rep to catch up on as well. 00:57 The other piece you need is you need to be using OutboundSync. So, in this video, I'm going to show you how OutboundSync data can take OutboundSync from Smartlead, instantly, or EmailBison, and log that into HubSpot and make that data really, really useful. 01:12 Bit of context. I run OutboundSync. It's a real software company, but in this video, we're going to use a fake company called Pueblo Machine Company. 01:21 We're going to use that for our prompts. It's not real. I don't sell this equipment, uh, I make OutboundSync. We're in the HubSpot App Marketplace. 01:29 Check it out. And, uh, HubSpot App Partner. Alright, let me just show you the end really quick, and then I'm going to work you through how we got here. 01:35 Uh, this video's not going to be longer than 10 minutes. We're looking at a record that came from an outbound campaign. 01:43 It was logged to HubSpot with both timeline events and emails. We have a task created for the sales rep because this lead was categorized by Breeze as one as being worth falling up on and the actual follow up itself was also drafted by Breeze. 02:00 We've also got a record summary here written by Breeze catching the sales rep up on what happened. So this is explaining. 02:09 It's contact engaged with an outbound campaign expressing interest. They responded positively. You can follow by scheduling the demo using the provided link. 02:18 So this is all coming together really, really nicely. This has been two years of work thinking about how to get outbound data into HubSpot, seeing how this all- all stacks up and now seeing how we can use Breeze inside. 02:27 I'm actually really, really excited how easy this was to build. So, let's jump right in. OutboundSync has a testing modal. 02:39 This allows us to send synthetic or fake outbound data. We've got a bakery theme here. So, Mac, Caron. It's like. 02:48 Macaron. Macaroon. Uh, we're going to email Mac and then we're going to also log a reply event. So, we, we pretend like we emailed this person and then we pretend like we got a reply back from them. 03:00 We're going to send those two test payloads you can see here that those were successfully sent in OutboundSync logs. Um, and MonumentSuites.com, Monument, Colorado. Uh, this is all Colorado theme- inbakery fake stuff. 03:14 Alright. So, now we've got a, if we go back to the record here, you can see we've got a sent email and we've got a reply. 03:22 These are logged as activities with the direction. Attached them. This is through HubSpot's API, uh, through the Engagement's API and then we've also got these timeline events which can be used to trigger workflows and we're going to show you how we use that in a second. 03:34 There's additional metadata behind this. This is just what we include- in the preview. Imagine your sales rep, you're either running your own campaign, you've got marketing or an agency running a campaign for you. 03:44 You're going to want to get caught up on all of this stuff when you jump into this record. We'll talk about the task next. 03:52 So, first, let's talk about a situation where you do not have this lead categorized at all. Some platforms support this and I can see why you might- I want to use that. 04:01 It's easy, it's built in, you can potentially bring your own API key to the sales engagement platform and have them do that categorization for you. 04:09 However, it can be a little bit of a black box in terms of how it's working. And, obviously, it's separate AI credits on another platform. 04:18 So, you may want to do this inside of HubSpot to use Breeze Credits and to have the logic behind the prompt, uh, editable, understandable, by your team inside of HubSpot workflow. 04:30 So, let's assume that we do not have that lead category coming over from the sales engagement platform. In other words, like the disposition or the status. 04:37 All we know is we got a reply. And we potentially are getting a lot of replies, so we don't want to flood our sales rep with a lot of replies, like out of offices and things like that. 04:47 So, we're going to trigger our work- we'll see you flow. Move myself out of the way. When we got a reply. 04:56 And the lead category, ID or name, are unknown. We're going to trigger this workflow to create, uh, or set a category. 05:07 Now, I'm going to leave a little bit of a delay in here, just in case that lead category is coming through, but. 05:13 It comes later. That may not be necessary. If you don't have lead category being done at all on the engagement level, on the, on the sales engagement platform, you don't have to have this turned on. 05:23 Or if you do have a person reviewing it, you can even add this delay up to 24 hours or 48 hours as a backstop in case, you know, uh, a human in the loop misses something. 05:33 We do a second check to make sure that it's still unknown. And if it's still unknown. Then we're going to go ahead and we're going to ask Breeze to categorize it. 05:42 Now, I use chat GPT. You can use Claude. There's a lot of ways to develop this prompt. But the very simple goal here is should we follow up or not? 05:50 Is it positive neutral or in some way merits a human review? We provide the sent message and the reply message. 05:57 And then we ask for it to classify it. This is a really binary response. And then we can use that as an action output to branch the workflow and then do some next steps. 06:07 So I just want to show you what it looks like here. On another sample record. You can see the sent email input. 06:15 You can see the reply input. You can see that it was successful. And then you can see the responses follow up. 06:20 Right? So we're going to want to trigger the next step based on follow up or no follow up. And in this case. 06:25 It was positive, so we do want to follow up. We're going to set that lead category ID to Breeze, interested. 06:32 We're going to set the lead category name to interested. And then finally we're going to set the life cycle stage to MQL. 06:38 So this is a marketing qualified generated lead. I think it makes sense to have the sales rep make a determination if it's an SQL or not. 06:44 Um, that's going to be up to your organization. Your rule. But in general, as a rule of thumb, I think if you get a positive or high back from an app on campaign, my default is let's start that as an MQL. 06:59 If it's already been categorized, we don't need to. We don't need to run it through and it's been categorized and not worth falling up. 07:05 We don't need to run it through this, right? You could build this out more. You could add additional categories, additional branches. 07:10 There's a lot more you could do here. So we've got. Now let's just show what that looks like. So this workflow ran for our Mac, Caron. 07:17 And you can see that these two properties were updated. I can show you if you go to the details. This was updated by this workflow. 07:24 Same here. And you can see that this list membership here. So Mac is on our list. And you can test which list criteria. 07:37 Mac fits because we're using that little testing criteria. And you can see that Mac fits this one down here. So, associated with that bound, and marked as an MQL, it progressed through the funnel. 07:48 We're actually a little conservative here. We could have additional criteria here where just if a lead category name is known. 07:54 Um, it could be included in this positive reply thing. We want to make sure that we're being really tight about what gets counted when and why. 08:08 We don't want to over attribute. Um, I think that there's another way to do this. You could potentially include that. 08:13 We package all of these lists and workflows and reports through super, and we make them available to users pre-packaged, but if you're building this on your own, obviously you can build it yourself. 08:22 I think there's an argument to be made for including the property as a category. A categorization criteria. Um, but it would be possible to potentially game that a little bit. 08:31 So, yeah, being a little strict in how we filter this. Okay, so now we've got our sent email. We've got a reply back. 08:39 It's been categorized as an interested lead that's worth following up. Now, I want to show you how we created that task and used Breeze to gentle- I'm to generate a reply for the prospect. 08:54 So, when the sales rep logs into HubSpot, this is going to be all teed up for them inside of HubSpot. 08:59 Using all HubSpot tools. In terms of workflows in the AI. Not, not, not for the sequencing and things like that. 09:08 Alright, so, when it's a positive reply. And we know that it's nap on sync content. We're gonna trigger this workflow. 09:21 Only for positive replies we wanna go ahead and put it into, this? Breeze prompt. And, and, now we're gonna have Breeze take the sent email, take the reply and we're gonna have it generate uhh, a suggested copy for how to respond to the lead. 09:37 And it's. It's got a little bit of context about our company. It's got some guidance about how long the email should be. 09:41 You can see all of this here. Feel free to pause the video, copy it, make it better. I'm sure there's ways to do this differently and more efficiently. 09:50 I do just wanna note that Breeze has a context window of about 3000 characters. Um, there's another way that we're using this actually internally that I can maybe share another video but just keep that in mind. 09:59 Alright, coming up on my, my. I'll see time limit here so I'm gonna wrap it up. We've got that Breeze output. 10:05 We're dropping that Breeze output here, that response into the task. We've got the context for the sales rep. And this workflow fired off. 10:13 And you can see it here. Just again, recapping. We've got the sent email. Log as an email. Log as a time line event. 10:19 We've got the reply. Log as an email. Log as a time line event. We've got the Breeze contact summary. And we've got the Breeze task Into the sales rep. 10:27 With the context of the bac- of the campaign name, Colorado Bakeries, the sent email, the reply, the suggested response back. 10:34 So check it out. Let me know if you're building something like this or interested in building something like this. Um, it's been a steady, steady, steady build on the Breeze side for HubSpot. 10:43 And I have to say that these pieces are starting to come together in a way that's really exciting. And as app partner, the way we're putting this data in- and seeing the way that it's increasingly being used, and kind of like, almost future or forward compatible, uh, really exciting stuff as HubSpot 11:00 app partner. And we've got a lot more coming that we're going to be building on this. But even just seeing where it is right now, this is pretty radical, um, change versus where HubSpot was, uh, you know, even just a year ago. 11:09 So yeah, check it out. Would love feedback on this. Tear it apart. Let me know what you do differently. Really. 11:14 Appreciate you taking the time to watch, and hope you have a great day. See you in the next one.

Enriching HubSpot with Clay (Part 4: Company Names)

Wed, 09 Apr 2025 00:00:00 GMT

HubSpot recently sunset its free Company Insights enrichment feature—leaving many users with incomplete company records and blank names in their CRM. In this post, Harris Kenny, founder of OutboundSync, walks through how to rebuild that enrichment layer using Clay. By combining HubSpot lists, a structured waterfall of enrichment providers, and thoughtful logic to prevent unnecessary overwrites, you’ll learn how to maintain clean, consistent company names using a scalable and conservative approach. Whether you’re replacing HubSpot Insights or future-proofing your enrichment stack, this guide shows one way to do it—with zero AI-induced hallucinations. ## Watch ## Transcript 00:00 Hey there, my name is Harris Kenny, I'm the founder of OutboundSync, and I'm picking back up our series on enriching HubSpot with Clay. 00:07 Now, I first started this series about nine months ago, and what really inspired it was Clay's new job tracking feature. 00:14 But I found that in order to take full advantage of that, there was some other CRM enrichment and CRM hygiene things that we wanted to do first. 00:22 So, I covered that in the first few videos. How to do contact name, contact phone number, contact social profile inside of HubSpot. 00:31 However, a few things have changed since then. First, Clay has made a lot of progress on that job change tracking feature. 00:42 When I was testing at the beginning, it just was a little buggy, and so I didn't want to continue this series until I felt like we were ready to go. 00:48 Fortunately, it's working really well now, and Clay has also significantly increased its support for HubSpot, and so I am still gonna finish this series in the final video, which is coming up next. 00:58 We will talk about that. The other thing that's changed is that HubSpot has discontinued their company Insights feature. This is where HubSpot was enriching company records for free. 01:09 They're not doing this anymore. So, if you haven't noticed yet, There are gonna be a lot of company records in HubSpot that do not have a name anymore. 01:17 And I thought it would be really useful to show how to make up for this using Clay. And we're gonna adopt the same techniques that we used previously. 01:27 Everything we have done in this series so far in the first videos still applies. So, I'm gonna walk you through that with a little refresher on how that works. 01:34 And by the end of this video, you're gonna know how to use, Play to get the company names from across multiple different data providers inside of HubSpot. 01:43 Let's jump right in with our HubSpot list. Now, I've done two things here with this active list in HubSpot. The first thing is, I have a consistent naming convention. 01:55 So, you'll notice that in all of my videos here, we've got a very similar naming convention that we've got here. 02:00 I'm just gonna show you an, green. This naming convention is consistent across our videos and across all our lists. So, I can very quickly, in HubSpot, search to see which lists are being used for this enrichment project. 02:13 And you'll notice that it's modular. So, I have six different lists for the six different properties or fields that I am dynamically updating with Clay. 02:22 So, that if I want to change that or use different provider, It's very easy to see what's going in and out of HubSpot. 02:28 I really highly recommend this over doing a large sort of heavy table that's updating lots of things all at once. 02:37 This gives you just a lot more control over what's going on. Especially as your organization grows. Smaller workflows, tighter automations that are easier to audit and easier to manage. 02:46 I think, I think we're really glad you do it that way. you Second, is I have two different criteria here for company names that I want to go. 02:54 Enrich. The first is that the company name is unknown. That's an obvious one. You can see that here. We've got these dashes. 03:01 But I've also got companies where it contains a dot. And there's a lot of companies where the domain is basically sitting in the place of the company name. 03:09 And in situations like that, uh, it then may be the right name. One, two, the company may include, uh, their TLD inside of their company name. 03:16 Uh, like for a long time, uh, close. The CRM was close.io. And then they bought the dot.com and they became just close. 03:24 But for a long time, that was the company's name. Close.io. And so there are situations where that is correct. However, there are other situations where that's not correct. It's just the domain being used. 03:28 And so we can find a proper name. And we would prefer it used to. So what I'm gonna do in this video is I'm gonna show you how to check for that. 03:42 And if there's a change, we can override it. And if not, we'll leave it as is. Now that our list is built, let's go over to Clay. 03:50 Now, inside of Clay, we are using HubSpot. And specifically that HubSpot list as our source for the Clay table. This is gonna run once a day. 04:01 Let me see if I can find the settings on this table. Let's see. This Clay, oh, here we go. Um, sources, import object. 04:14 Okay, great. So this is running on a schedule. It's gonna run once a day. Gonna look for names to be updated. 04:19 And I could manually push an update if I need to. But once a day is fine, as far as I'm concerned. 04:25 I don't need to run more frequently than that. You can see the list of companies here that were also found in that previous HubSpot list. 04:33 I've got the ID. I've got the name. I've got the domain. And now I have a series of enrichments that are running. 04:39 The first one I'm using is Clay's Enrich Company. And so basically, as we move from left to right, in this table, you're gonna see we're using increasingly expensive providers. 04:48 So this is- This a classic and a very conventional waterfall approach. There's nothing too interesting here. I'm using one credit, then two, then three, then eight, and then finally a ten credit enrichment in Euler. 05:00 And you can see that as we go, I actually am able to find some with this more expensive provider. Uh, and as is the case in almost every enrichment in Clay, maybe all of them now, I'm not sure. 05:12 But if- if- if- a- an enrichment provider doesn't locate the source, you're not gonna get charged for it. You can get refunded. 05:19 And you can see that little refunded thing here. Right? So I'm not getting charged if Clay's enriched company doesn't find something. 05:26 I'm not getting charged if Datagma doesn't find something. Don't get charged by Rocket Reach. Don't get charged by ClearBit. Don't get charged by Owler. 05:33 So if- if they have the data, basically they get paid more for it. Okay? Now I have run conditions set for each of these columns. 05:40 I'm just gonna give you one example. Where if the Clay column here is empty, has no results, then run the next column. 05:53 Run Datagma. Conversely, if it has results, don't run it. Right? I don't need to be checking the same one over and over and over again. 06:00 So we've got five providers- and then finally we have a merge column that's pulling them together in order. And it's going in order of the enrichments. 06:08 This is pretty cool. I have a checkbox column that's basically saying if the discovered name, if there is a discovered name, and it's not the same as the existing name. 06:21 In other words, we found a new one. Mark that as true. Now, I did this in a checkbox column just to make it visual. 06:27 Technically, you don't need to do this. You could do this as a run condition in a subsequent or a later column. 06:32 But I just, I thought it was a nice clean way to show, hey, we're finding new data. You could filter that way if you wanted to using the filters inside of clay. 06:38 Umm, found a new name and you could do that as a checkbox filter if you want. Um, here, let's, let's do that. 06:47 So, for 224 of these, we found a new. Name. So, what does that mean? Like, why do I do that? 06:54 Well, basically, if it's the same as before, there's no reason in updating the record, right? So, leadoff.ai, the name that was found on social, which is the source for this enriched company record, is the same as what's already in HubSpot. 07:07 So, I'm not going to rewrite it. Finally, I'm using the normal- Normal. Now, this is just using, I think, some logic that's coded in, some red jacks, regular expressions. 07:21 I actually played around with quite a few different ways of doing this using AI. Including Claygent, including just a regular API call into OpenAI. 07:30 Um. I didn't want to introduce new errors, and I was finding that that was happening a night. Enough that I didn't really feel like it was necessary to include AI in this case. 07:42 Excuse me. If we can find the company name, great, let's use it. If we can't, that's fine. We'll just leave it as is. 07:49 And. Here you can see what that cleanup looks like. So if we can find a good example here, this is, let's see. 08:01 A lot of these are pretty straightforward. Mm-hmm. Trying to find a good one for you. You know, e-cha-bot, l-t-d, just shortened it to e-cha-bot. 08:17 Sorry if there's a different way of saying that. I'm not sure what language that is. Um, but, you know, it just cleans it up a little bit. 08:23 Perhaps a lot, which is nice. And then finally, we're gonna run it enrichment. Here in HubSpot, we're gonna be updating the company record. 08:28 We're looking up the ID from our original list. We're taking our clean and ready domain name, and we're only gonna run it as long as it's a new name that was discovered. 08:43 And once we run this, it's gonna be pretty straightforward. It's gonna update the company names in HubSpot. And, uh, and we're-we're s stacking. 08:50 If you look at the previous videos in the series, you'll see that we're stacking enrichment upon enrichment upon enrichment. Finally, we're gonna have job tracking so that when this job changed from an existing contact in our CRM, we go to see what's going on. 09:01 We're gonna have just a nice clean environment to work in to see what has changed since we were in clay last. 09:07 So remember, this is no longer supported by HubSpot's company Insights. HubSpot does have a Breeze AI enrichment that does a lot of other things. 09:13 And frankly, that might be a good fit for what you're looking for. But if you just need company name, you can use clay to do that in the way that I've shown you here. If you've got ideas for how you would do this differently, definitely let me know. 09:25 I would love to see them, love to hear it, I would love to know if there's different providers that you use that you like more. 09:30 I tested quite a few different providers beyond what you see in the video and I played around with AI quite a bit. 09:36 Ultimately, I felt like this was, the do-no-harm, right? Precautionary principle. This is gonna give us a really solid, uh, low-risk, small-c conservative name that we can have inside of HubSpot, um, without introducing errors unnecessarily. 09:53 So, there you go. Try it out. Let me know what you think. And in the final video, we are going to finally look at how to track job changes, using clay for your contacts that are inside of half-spot. 10:06 And I'll give you a little sneak peek. We're gonna be using the lead object, because that's what we use internally. 10:11 And so I'll show you how to use the lead object to create a new lead when a job change is detected. 10:16 There are gonna be other ways to do that, like creating tasks. Um, but, I'm gonna show you how to- I'll show you how to do it with the lead object using half-spot. 10:23 And if you're using Breeze AI, you don't need to do any of So if you're not familiar, check out Breeze AI, which is HubSpot's CRM Hygiene Enrichment Product, which is really spurred on by their Clearbit acquisition. 10:35 Uh, and you can see we are actually using Clearbit as a provider here in this waterfall as well. Alright, thanks so much, and we'll see you in the next one.

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep7: Omni-Channel Outbound and Product Data

Fri, 04 Apr 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this episode of GTM Crossroads, the hosts discuss their personal experiences with spring activities, transitioning into a reflection on their business performance in Q1 and strategies for Q2. They explore the importance of hiring, the shift towards API integration and first-party data, and the growing need for omni-channel marketing strategies. The conversation also delves into transforming email marketing from a transactional approach to a more relational one, emphasizing the significance of customer experience and relationship building in today's business landscape. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Brendan Tolleson (00:01.073) Gents, welcome back to another episode of Go To Market Crossroads. Zach, it looks like you're enjoying the spring weather behind you. Not experiencing the pollen that I had to deal with in the lovely city of Atlanta, where we actually had a record count of pollen, which was terrible. But anyways, Harris, how are you doing? Let's go to you, because you don't experience any pollen, and it's probably not too hot in Colorado. Harris Kenny (00:26.718) No, quite the opposite. We got a little bit of spring snow, so we got a little dusting, which is great. We're gonna go up skiing this weekend for probably last one of the last run of the season. Our four and a half year old is learning how to ski and I switched to skiing myself after never really like falling in love with snowboarding and I loved skiing. So yeah, we love the snow and it's always goofy. Spring is goofy out here, but no pollen. I think the snow dampened all the pollen from coming out. Zach Vidibor (00:56.619) Did you start as a skier and switch to snowboarding and now back? were you always a boarder? Harris Kenny (01:01.804) I started as a snowboarder as an adult, you know, in my early twenties. And I just never really, I like just being on my feet, you know, I'm not like a big gear sports guy, but there's something about when your back is like downhill, it's just something about it. just, my brain was, it just never got comfortable with it. but with skiing, was like, okay, I know where I'm going. I can always pizza, you know, I can always point my toes in and make a little pizza slice with the, you're, if you're not familiar with the, with the skis, I got the poles. which is great, I can push myself if I'm stuck. Yeah, just, I'm really looking forward to kinda getting into it. I know. Well, no, if you get stuck on like a catwalk, you know, it's very practical. And then with kids, they can grab the pole and you can pull them if they get stuck. You know, it's just like, it's really like practical and you can kinda like, you always see where you're going. I don't know. But I mean, I'm definitely not getting any younger. I feel that. Brendan Tolleson (01:36.497) You sound like a really old person right now. Just FYI. Yeah. Harris Kenny (01:59.312) I feel that in the morning when I wake up. Zach Vidibor (02:00.781) you Brendan Tolleson (02:01.533) My buddies, they've done like this trip with other guys the last two years out to actually to Colorado and both years, day one, same injury, two guys like broke their legs. I think to your point about getting older, you know, use caution. What's like, where are you on like levels? Are you like, I don't even know levels of skiing because I don't ski but is double black diamond a thing or what's after? Zach Vidibor (02:15.839) Ugh. Harris Kenny (02:20.665) yeah. Harris Kenny (02:28.697) I mean it is, but not for me. It's on the mountain, but not for me. No, no, I have pools in my life where I have, we'll talk about our businesses today, but tremendous risk and then in every other area I like to be really, really small-see conservative. So I am not risky at all. I don't do jumps, I don't do anything. Physically, you could maybe describe me as a scaredy cat. Maybe it's the best way to describe it. Brendan Tolleson (02:30.671) Okay. Zach Vidibor (02:30.935) Ha ha! Brendan Tolleson (02:57.831) That key, you know? Zach Vidibor (02:57.934) I started skiing, switched to snowboarding the last few years. Living in London for three years, there was not much snowboarding going on there. And then since I moved back three years ago, embarrassingly I haven't been back up to Tahoe or anywhere. Harris Kenny (03:09.252) You Zach Vidibor (03:19.096) But yeah, I've definitely, used to be like, I I love board sports. I grew up on a skateboard, throwing myself downstairs in handrails and I have firmly entered, I love like mountain biking too. And I go like mountain biking with my buddies and like used to be much more of a daredevil. And I have firmly entered the, again, to your point Harris. In other places I'm risky. In the action sports, I'm in the no longer is there anything to prove zone. Harris Kenny (03:48.367) Yeah, that's what chart mogul and Stripe screenshots are for. You see how crazy I am? Look at that slope. Zach Vidibor (03:53.582) Right, right, exactly. Yeah, that, yeah, I need to... A broken collarbone on the mountain bike would severely... That would really screw up the other part of the life that's consuming me. Brendan Tolleson (04:07.573) All right, guys, well, speaking of I don't know if risk is the right word, but let's go into the business side that we just talked about. We're all entrepreneurs. So yes, we have a tolerance for risk, but we are now in April, which means if you are on the calendar year quarters, that means you ended Q1 and you're entering Q2. So I think this could be, you know, we're all in different spaces and in different inflection points of businesses, but I think it'd be often time just to take a step back, reflect on the takeaways for Q1, and then in light of what we saw, what are we prioritizing for Q2? So who wants to get us kicked off as it relates to some of the trends that you experienced in Q1? Zach Vidibor (04:48.494) We had a good Q1. We didn't have a lovable zero to 40 million ARR in four months Q1, but we're happy with the team we got and what we're trying to do. We made some really good progress with our direct selling efforts, with our products, partnerships like these that are beginning to bear fruit and doing co-selling together. We are definitely, Q2 obviously, have VC backers, so growth is always number one, I guess that is always priority number one, but I'd say we have definitely, we got nine people on the team now here. We are the real, What will catapult us to the next level is we need to hire. And like really where the business feels the most tension right now and like transparently like where I feel the most tension is, know, Octave still feels like this, the Octave source code like. Julian's my co-founder. It's like that software only runs in our head right now and like we need to start really Bleeding that out into a team that can start taking over some of this stuff because like if it's all single threading through us No matter what we're doing on the the sales side like the product the business the company won't won't scale and so that's Frankly, you know besides keep on selling selling selling I've started to turn a lot of my attention to hiring and recruiting and like what's the team we're going to build look like and we got to go. We're going to truly emerge from the garage and go get an office and like, all those to like starting to, think enter that next level for our company. like that's a, again, won't ever end hopefully, or, know, at some point that's, you know, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But yeah, that's Q2 is we're really having a... Zach Vidibor (06:58.506) spend much more of our time on hiring and recruiting than we have ever before. Brendan Tolleson (07:03.737) I'm going come back to you in a second. Harris, how about you on your side? Harris Kenny (07:08.529) Yeah, so I mean, for us, we're fortunate growth is steady. I mean, we grow like 10 to 20 % every month and we have for like almost almost two years. I mean, so it's just like steady, steady, steady. And so I think, you know, for us, and that was that was true in Q1 as well. Fortunately. I think that, and that's like net, so we're retaining. So, you know, I think we've made a lot of investments on the customer success and retention shot, retention side. I think that for me, for growth, for us, what it looks like is. I mean, partners are huge for us. We sell through agencies. It's about 80 % of our business is selling through growth agencies and to a small extent, rev ops type, like more CRM focus agencies. But I mean, as we've talked about a little bit in the past, like I think that most of the, most of the ecosystem is just not really in a position to be able to handle this stuff. They're just not making these changes. They're not, they're not, they're on the wrong side of the GTM crossroads. You know, so for us, like, it's mostly nos. It's nine nos and it's one yes. Cause we are, you know, bootstrapped, so we're bandwidth constrained and we just gotta say no to a lot of feature ideas and even some bigger things that I'm pretty excited about. And so we just gotta go to like the one thing where it's like, okay, this is obviously what's coming up from users. Let's go build that new thing. And so for us, that's continuing doing what we're doing on the partner side, but it's omni-channel. You know, we're really consistently hearing from users that they wanna be able to to get that omni-channel data inside of the CRM. so specifically for email right now, so that's considering social and then it's phones. WhatsApp is also kind of interesting, and that is increasingly a thing, is interesting. yeah, so for us, for our own growth, if we keep, disciplined in terms of what we're shipping, continue to sell through partners, and then for our direct deals, Harris Kenny (09:11.599) I'm working on our process, our sales process, you know, and just doing a better job of that. think that I've definitely noticed some deals are slowing down. There's just like a lot of uncertainty. And so I'm just trying to do a better job of entertaining value. And I have like a two-stage process, which we've talked about a little bit previously, but I'm doing that and it's working. I'm getting like the book of meeting from a meeting that is convert that's resulting in deals closing and people not ghosting me as much as they were before. So unfortunately I'm in a stage of the business where it's just really kind of boring discipline stuff. I mean, hopefully we keep growing, but the stuff that I'm thinking about is just like, it's just like sit down and eat your veggies kind of thing. It's nothing like super exotic. I mean, I think we're doing it. Something's interesting in interesting ways, but it's all just kind of, yeah, basic stuff. But we did get sock two type two, which is pretty sweet. that's compliance and yeah, compliance and moving up market. I think that's like complimentary with the, with the idea of sale of our sales process. Brendan Tolleson (09:58.46) and crap. Harris Kenny (10:05.637) because we're selling to bigger companies too. So I think that's gonna help. Brendan Tolleson (10:10.247) Great. Well, I can attest to your comment on focus. I remember our first conversation at inbound, I asked you for an integration and you said no. So he is very laser focused on the things that he is doing. So that's impressive. Yeah, our quick exec summary for RP was, Q1 was great. And I'm very thankful for that. Like we had, for those that have followed our journey last year was, Harris Kenny (10:19.652) You Zach Vidibor (10:23.234) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (10:28.11) Thanks Brendan Tolleson (10:39.613) think probably how you described it Harris, with the whole eat your veggies, it was like get back to sustainability, get the company healthy, and FY25 was like let's get back into a growth mode, kind of like measured aggression. And there's like this Sam Altman quote that talks about like, regards to you about Sam Altman, the quote was basically around like growth covers a lot of problems, and so it's just nice forward back in the growth mode. had like 120 % of our qualified deals, we at 99 % of our... bookings target, and then we had 120 % of our attention target. So overall it was a good quarter for us. I'll get into Q2 in a second. But Zach, one of the things I wanted to come back to you on, then Harris, have a question for you, but Zach, what did you see, like Q1 you talked about, it was a positive quarter for y'all. Were there any deal trends that you're seeing in terms of industry, employee size, persona, like who you're competing against, kind of like to pull that out, some of the themes that you saw. Zach Vidibor (11:37.058) Yeah. I would say where we're trying to lean in more, where I think the market's pulling us and we want to go in this direction and we kind of think it's more differentiated. So we kind of have the like very high conviction is being very API integration first. And then, you know, there's a little in the weeds, but like we're seeing a lot of like, we're starting to talk to larger customers that have interesting first party data. And that first party data could be CRM data, could be conversation intelligence, things coming from call transcripts. It's also starting to be people that have PLG motion and they have actual product data. And this is something I'd say we're seeing early, a few deals are starting to appear and it's something we always wanted to do and maybe now it's time to really go this direction is a lot of these PLG companies, have this extreme long tail of oftentimes can be very high volume of people signing up, getting in the product. They're from a business, they're a B2B user and they're just kind of put in your standard lifecycle. marketing trip. Hey, thanks for signing up. Here's our docs, here's our guides. Two days later, hey, check out this video, blah blah blah. We're starting to see companies that are looking at putting a little more of like a sales assist kind of like automated motion behind that, leveraging a like, hey. Zach Vidibor (13:22.286) You're a DTC e-commerce company, right? They're starting to want to be armed with a bit more of a sales perspective, like, hey, saw you signed up, using some of that product data to really tighten up the relevancy of, hey, we know you, saw what happened, and really infusing that into, hey, companies like yours are doing XYZ with us. And so that is like... been very interested, we've always kind had this dream of like, all right, when you just live and die in like pure cold outbound, like that's a scary firing line to be on every day. And if we as a business can start getting more into the like... Hey, we're helping you across all these different touch points and the warmer and even not just the warm, the people that have like signed up. So we've started to see that. And yeah, I feel excited about like we've built the API in ways that can already like, can ingest a lot of that like rich data. And I think that's going to be a bet we make on the product side and see if we can go take down a few more of these customers and really build like, okay, like we've done this now half dozen, dozen times and like here now. Brendan Tolleson (14:09.009) Right. Zach Vidibor (14:35.428) let's go tell the world about it. Brendan Tolleson (14:38.237) Yeah, that's really interesting. In terms of the conversational intelligence, the product-led side, to your point about intent signals, that's a lot higher intent than some of the other ones that we've discussed in the past. that's pretty interesting and unique that you're able to go that far. Speaking of cold calling, Harris, one of the that you had mentioned is this omni-channel kind of desire. So I guess, maybe let's take a step back. What is driving that omni-channel push that you're seeing? And then how are you thinking about solving that? Because from what my, what's the right word? Limited knowledge. You were more on the email side. So how are you thinking about, hey, in light of this expansion of the need, how am I solving for it? So what's driving it and then two, how are you solving for it? Harris Kenny (15:08.016) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (15:20.751) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (15:27.493) Yeah, I mean, so what we're hearing from what we're seeing is that people just prefer to get their information in different ways, right? I mean, it's just like not, I mean, this is all bound, you know, approach D from your team had a great post about her and Kendra too, both had great posts this week on social from RP about this and kind of what's happening on the all bound side. Maybe it's just different ways to catch people at different times or they preferred or whatever is just how you get through the noise. And, I think like in first generation of this with the sales loft and the outreach of the world, you know, had a single rep in a single seat and they would have like a sequence across multiple channels. And then that model has shifted. There are still a lot of teams being successful with that at lower volume where they have target accounts, but we're seeing this unbundling of the go-to-market function where now you have like a GTM engineer type person to use Clay's term, but. probably other words you use to describe it, basically it's kind of becoming a little bit more like marketing. And so what was easier in the beginning was that there were tools that were built for that and they were email-based tools first for a lot of reasons. Email itself, it's an open standard. There's a lot of tooling around it. Validation is easier. It's relatively consistent and stable as a form of identification. If you look at the CRM, HubSpot uses email as a unique identifier so you can query HubSpot through an email address. Like there's lots of technical reasons why I think, you know, anyway, so, but now we're seeing like, okay, people are kind of, they're getting a lot out of that, but there's diminishing returns. And so they're saying, okay, what else can we do with other channels? So I think that's why it's just like the reason why sales often outreach of the world built it in the first place, like all those reasons are still true. And, and if you're going to have a, like the term that I've been increasingly using, I'm kind of falling in love with it is programmatic outbound. where I think that this type of, it's becoming like marketing, it's becoming like advertising and you know, people like Eric Novoselosky talk about email as being like, like almost like a private ad network. And so it's like different types of private ads that you can run across this list of prospects. and so there's just like tooling missing for programmatic outbound that exists for programmatic digital advertising. And so that, that I think is, I think why it's been like a little bit slow to take on. Harris Kenny (17:51.41) along with other like platform risks. mean, phones, it's just hard to find someone who's willing to pick up the phone, make a phone call, you know, just from like a staffing perspective and then getting good numbers. But now there's increasingly providers like Sure Connect that are scoring phone numbers for propensity to respond. And so now that rep efficiency is going way up because they're making, you know, four calls and having a conversation. There are also the power parallel, a power, parallel dialers like Orem and stuff where you can just kind of rock through a thousand numbers at once kind of thing. anyway, there's just new tech that's kind of catching up. feel like email was first for whatever reason, for whatever combination of reasons. so let me, let me just stop there. And I'm curious, like if you guys are hearing and seeing that or how much of that you're agreeing with, mean, I mean, Zach, from a messaging perspective, this messaging problem, it totally, translates across channels, you know, it's not just like a single channel problem. Zach Vidibor (18:44.654) Totally, totally. think the, yeah, I think the, it's interesting that like I've heard that the notion of the private ad network, it's like a new way of like thinking about it. I will like, anecdotally, I will say. Harris Kenny (18:55.803) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (19:03.618) like the customers that are most successful that I'm seeing with cold outbound, like it's first a mindset shift of just like email was treated as like, it's this transactional channel. It's like, you know, it's a performance marketing channel. You know, it's like, I put emails in, I get 30 minute meetings on the calendar out. And it is like, that is extremely difficult to do now, but you have this like, wait, what if we view this as yet another one of our touch points. This one, email, happens to have this like unique property of like, I can actually kind of figure out exactly who I want to deliver this, this ad or this impression of our company and our offering and what we do and like. if I treat it that way, it's like, all right, hey, I spent a lot of money on Google and Meta and all these other places to deliver ads, like, what if I rethink how I think about email? Like, it's not free and I can't just treat it like crap, like, I gotta be more thoughtful and intentional, and like, those companies, like, no surprise, I'd say, like. they're outperforming, know, cause it's like, it's the compounding you get across these touch points and the trying to be, you know, a bit more value first and like not just demanding time from people. Like that seems to be where there's momentum picking up. And I see like the teams that are making it work are just like, yeah, it's like first rethinking the like, what do we, what are our expectations here? How do we treat this? And then the toolings and the system and the processes follow. Harris Kenny (20:33.329) Yeah, totally. And funny enough, like paid ads are kind of coming back and now some of these app bond agencies are talking about adding paid ads. So, you know, it's really interesting. One last thing. And then Brendan, I don't know what you're seeing because I mean, you're running a $10 million agency, which you've said on this before. So I know that's not a secret. You know, you're running a major agency at scale. So I'm curious what you're seeing, but the last thing I'll just say is that Taylor Herron, he had an interesting post on social this week about the campaigns that are running for RB2B. Zach Vidibor (20:37.422) Right. Harris Kenny (21:00.897) And something that's interesting is that they're sending those campaign follow-ups and then the offer in the email. So you get deliverability right first. And that's where we've talked about before how technical that is. But then the offer is like, Hey, here's a free for life plan that you can use. Like there's no meeting requests. There's no hard pitch. It's just like a really straightforward, clean offer. And for our B2B, they, we've talked about it before, but so, you know, it's like, it's just like another touch point where you're getting, where you're getting in front of that person and you're giving us something that they can take action on or just learn about you. So yeah, I definitely think there's like a shift happening. And so, yeah. Brendan Tolleson (21:31.773) I really like the concept of how to think about your email strategy. How does it, to where you guys are going with that, and I think it's like the programmatic concept. How does, so therefore, how does it change the copy of the email? Like, are you saying it's more kind of informational as opposed to transactional? how, what is the, I guess for our listeners that are hearing this, they're saying, okay, I can buy into that concept. Now what does that mean in terms of how I should approach the email inbox? Harris Kenny (22:06.619) Yeah, well, I mean, I can just say like some of the offers that we're seeing are different than they were before. So if you think about like before, you had a sales rep that had access to Zoom info or a Don and Bradstreet and they were working, you know, some limited number of target accounts and they would write individual emails and they would create a task and then they would write a second email. And the goal was always for that rep to get meetings for themselves on their calendar as an SDR, if they're following that old predictable revenue model and then hand that off to an AE. But if Outbound is shifting to this more programmatic Outbound, it's becoming a little bit more of like an extent, moving up funnel a little bit, becoming a little bit of an extension of marketing. Then we're seeing offers that are like, for example, using Outbound to distribute content. Hey, you know, we just put together this calculator or this white paper or like, just like posted this on social, thought you might find it interesting. So as a distribution channel for content in a way that's really light touch. Or let's see. What else? I I think that you can use a certain channel when other channels aren't available. So I think that if you have multiple channels available to reach someone, or if you can have signals-based things changing what you're doing, I think that's where the programmatic piece comes in. So the question's like, what are you emailing? It depends. It depends on what your content strategy is. It depends on what signals you can track for them. It depends on what you know about them from an ICP perspective. And the more you know about them, the more likely it is that you can find something for them to grab onto. That doesn't necessarily have to be a meeting today. I mean our goal of course is growth. It's revenue We want closed one deals like obviously But it's not not as straight line as it used to be and so that I think is kind of overall What I'm seeing Zach Vidibor (23:51.566) Yeah, I think there's like a few places like the rubber meets the road in like real tactical differences. Like, okay, what's the CTA? Like, what's the call to action? Is it, do you have time to chat for 30 minutes or is it something softer? it, can I send you this? Can I send you a video? Can I share companies just like yours we've worked with in your industry? You know, like things that are like easy, like I'd say that's like a tactical piece, but then I'd say like, again, the like, not to make this too like, abstract theory based but it just like if you're When you're developing messaging, if the goal is like, how do I like... create this Rubik's Cube that somebody will agree to meet with me. That's just kind of like a different equation than if you're just like, hey, I want this person to understand we're doing really cool stuff that solves a problem. I think they have. And I want to deliver that message. Hey, I have a perspective that I think I'm right about. I'm not totally sure, but might be able to help you. It's gotta just, and this is where... It's a blend of human and AI. Like AI cannot figure this out on its own. know, this is like it takes... Zach Vidibor (25:03.756) the operator who's been in the business knows the offer, knows the market and like, yeah, we can start using tools, you you can use tools like us or many others to help automate a lot of this, but it's like, this is where the art still lies, you know, and you just gotta think of like, what are we trying to motivate people to do to understand about us, to feel about our brand? You know, like, I think those things are like becoming more important again, you know, I think there's gonna be a renaissance of... the importance of brand will surface again, not that it's gone away, but maybe just for B2B more so than B2C, I think it's gonna grow in importance and kind of like how strategic companies need to think about it. Brendan Tolleson (25:47.549) Yeah, I think the, it's almost like rewiring the way we approach go to market and it's going from a transaction to a relationship is kind of what I'm hearing. And one of the things that actually Rob Jones and I have been talking a lot about is like, how do you capture this? it's, we're talking about a lot, this actually is funny that you guys are bringing this up. This is a lot of what we're gonna be talking about at Southbound, our conference in May in Atlanta. but there's this idea of like turn my funnel into a tunnel. And it's, we're working on this. Yeah, we're working on how to like frame this, but the idea of like a tunnel is like continuity. And it really is all about this idea of like the customer experience and value and relationship and a tunnel can go very deep. And so there's like no end to it. And so we're trying to like, from a visualization perspective, what you guys are talking about of like, how do we approach the Zach Vidibor (26:23.16) Thank very much. Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (26:46.557) using the idea of the programmatic outbound or, but it's just like, how do we think about it in that way? Where it is very much value centric, recurring value, as opposed to, I want to just force you down something. It's just a different mindset that we're playing around with. Harris Kenny (27:02.737) And the lineup at Southbound is insane, by the way. I mean, I'll let you talk about it, but some of the companies that are speaking there are nuts. I mean, this isn't just like we talk a lot about B2B SaaS, but this is about way more than that, right? I mean, we're talking about things that are affecting whole parts of the economy that are experiencing a ton of change right now with everything going on economically. Not just in the US, like around the world. mean, things are up in the air right now. Brendan Tolleson (27:03.281) So if you guys like the funnel, you're gonna see the funnel. Brendan Tolleson (27:25.959) Well, that was it. Zach Vidibor (27:30.83) Thank Harris Kenny (27:31.375) big time, you know? I mean, not to turn this into a news show, but you know, Jesus. Brendan Tolleson (27:33.08) Yeah. Well, I think that was going back to this idea of like, everyone's talking about AI and we just talk about transaction versus relationship. And it's like, well, no, we really need to be mindful of the human element. And that was the whole idea. Like some things change, but other things remain the same. And at the end of the day, we are people selling to people. And so why not learn from some of the best brands that we've seen in that B2C space? Hor Shultz, who ran the Ritz Carlton. And then you have Dan Cathy on the Chick-fil-A side, who may be the number one in customer satisfaction for I eight years in row now. So it's like, hey, what if you guys, like just using those two as example, how have you guys thought through the experience you create for your customer to translate it from a transaction to a relationship that we can learn from? And then like Donald Miller, who is a bestselling author and the StoryBrand framework is all about the customer is the hero and you're the guide. And so yeah, we were very much like, let's take these principles and then how do we apply that with some of these concepts that like a winning by design is talking about with a bow tie model. So yeah, we're trying to marry that to your point, Harris. Like we don't claim to know the best things. And so let's use these like thought leaders to really help not only inspire, but then apply that into our good market. So that's the intent behind who's there and why we're doing it that way. Zach Vidibor (28:55.31) awesome. That's a killer lineup. It's funny, I always find myself drawn to like the... there are a lot of lessons from B to C and just like they get to operate at like a crazy scale and like they're, you know, they go deeper on like the the psychology aspect in ways that oftentimes like we go in B to B because it's harder in B to B where it's like you're dealing with... buying committees and it's like, it's not one buyer psychology, it's like, what's the buying psychology of this company's culture? know, but it's just like, there are a lot of lessons to be drawn from that. So that's gonna be cool to hear and like, yeah, we're in this like, yeah, not just the news of the day is like, you know, things are in flux, but like the, think people's teams, how they're growing, what they're hiring for, how they're thinking about their markets. Like we're gonna, you know, it's a interesting time, but lots of opportunity as well. Brendan Tolleson (29:48.861) Well, yeah, I think we already see the Amazon effect of like how people want to buy. So you mentioned PLG earlier. So there's like even just the experience of how we want to purchase. But then there's like the commitment. I mean, you're seeing it. was talking to John Dick, who runs customer success now at HubSpot. know, John Dick was in marketing and now he's in CS, which is kind of a weird, like it seems weird. Like, why would you go from marketing to CS? But I think it speaks into the B2C concept and it's like. Hey, no, we have to have recurring value, recurring impact. We have to earn the right to win their business on a, like every day. And like, how do we bring kind of your point about like programmatic outbound, there's almost like this programmatic customer experience where marketing actually plays a role in that. So I think there's a lot we can unpack on that topic. I know we are at the top of our time, but guys, I'd love to talk more because there's a lot here as it relates to what we're seeing and I it's gonna be a fun. Harris Kenny (30:29.657) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (30:43.249) kind of way to set this up of just kind of what's going on in our businesses and what we're experiencing since last week, just to have a pretty open dialogue and hopefully the, I liked it, hopefully the audience likes it too, but I think it's a good way for us to continue to learn and challenge assumptions that we have as we build together. Zach Vidibor (30:59.961) The meeting invite on the calendar started as a GTM therapy. we can make it a little more, some therapy we can get on the couch. Harris Kenny (31:04.735) Yeah Harris Kenny (31:09.649) That's right. Yeah, for all negative feedback, please direct that to Brendan Tollison on social. Let us know. Send us what you think. Really don't hold back. Just let it Brendan know. Positive feedback sent to Zach and I. Zach Vidibor (31:14.559) Ha ha ha! Brendan Tolleson (31:19.581) Alright, feedback's a gift. Alright gents, well enjoy the conversation. I'll see y'all next week. Zach Vidibor (31:20.6) You Zach Vidibor (31:28.984) Cheers.

OutboundSync is SOC 2 Type II compliant

Mon, 31 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync is officially SOC 2 Type II compliant. In this post, I’ll explain how we did it and what it means for our company, our partners, and our users. If you're a Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, or SASMail user looking to integrate with HubSpot or Salesforce, you're in the right place. If you're a founder considering pursuing SOC 2, you may find it useful too. ## Why this matters Before jumping in, let's set some context for why this matters. Because I believe it reflects a larger trend that's years in the making in the outbound space—and one that's still just building momentum with consequences for founder-led startups and SMBs to multinational, publicly traded companies. The programmatic outbound movement is going mainstream. Sales motions, powered by AI and automation, are becoming more like marketing. And the tools that enable those go to market ("GTM") teams—like Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, and SASMail—are getting traction as a result. They’re no longer just side projects for solo SDRs trying to book a few more meetings, or growth hackers trying to work around existing tools. They’re powering GTM at fast-growing SaaS teams and mid-market revenue organizations. As these platforms move upstream, so do expectations. We believe OutboundSync is the best way for companies to sync activity and attribution data from these tools into CRMs like HubSpot and Salesforce—at scale, securely, and reliably. And we're seeing larger and larger companies wanting to do this, with more complex requirements along the way. With nearly 20m records synced by OutboundSync and counting, we think we're onto something here. And by making this investment in our company, we think we can help bridge the gap to enable revenue teams to run this motion at scale. ## What is SOC 2? SOC stands for System and Organization Controls. It’s a compliance framework from the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (AICPA). A SOC 2 report, which we just attained, is specifically “a report on controls at a service organization relevant to security, availability, processing integrity, confidentiality, or privacy.” (Source: AICPA) And yes, it’s from the AICPA because, fundamentally, it’s an audit. Having helped run a $20M hardware company that went through inventory counts and financial audits, the structure felt familiar. But unlike a financial audit, this isn’t just for the finance team. It touches everything: - Hiring and onboarding - Vendor management - Incident response - Product development - Access control - Infrastructure You don’t just "get" SOC 2... You commit to it—across your company. ## SOC 2 Type I vs. Type II There are two versions of SOC 2: - Type I: A snapshot at a single point in time. - Type II: An evaluation over a set period (typically 3–12 months). We chose Type II from the start. The cost and effort are similar, but the level of credibility is higher because it shows that policies are being actively followed over time. ## Why we did it This one’s easy: Our buyers kept asking for it. We work with a lot of B2B SaaS companies—many of whom are SOC 2 compliant themselves. If you’re one of those companies, it’s a lot easier to use a vendor who also has it. Security is especially relevant for OutboundSync because we have read/write access to companies’ systems of record (e.g. HubSpot and Salesforce) and are responsible for syncing business communications data. And I always knew I wanted us to invest more in this direction. But when buyers kept asking, it helped get the ball rolling faster. Having a SOC 2 attestation saves everyone time. But it’s not a substitute for having good security practices. And your SOC 2 attestation can absolutely be deemed insufficient by a CISO who reads through it. So how you do it matters too. Let's talk about that next. ## How we did it ### Step 1: Deciding whether or not to use a GRC platform SOC 2 is a set of standards that you choose to follow. You then have to document and manage your compliance. You can get SOC 2 with spreadsheets, screenshots, and documents that reflect your compliance with those standards. Then send them to an auditor and have them return a report back. This is the way it used to be done. Companies paid a lot more for manual processes and fewer companies did it. Or you can invest in a trust management platform or governance, risk, and compliance (GRC) platform that helps you manage the whole thing, provides best practice policies, and includes real-time integrations with the tools in your tech stack. The point of a platform is two-fold: 1. Helps your internal team, vendors, and contractors manage the compliance process. 2. It provides an easy way for third parties to review your compliance. For auditors, this means issuing a report. For buyers, it means passing their security review process. Needless to say, I recommend selecting a platform. Especially if you anticipate managing additional programs like ISO, GDPR, CCPA, GDPR, etc. ### Step 2. Choosing a GRC platform We evaluated several Governance, Risk & Compliance (GRC) platforms. Some were sketchy. One vendor falsely claimed we were a customer of theirs in a cold email campaign—after we took only one discovery call. Another blatantly misrepresented their product in a sales call. Yikes. Ultimately we chose Vanta and I'm glad we did. (N.b. their mascot is a llama.) They essentially created the modern GRC category. And for us, they had the best mix of integrations, platform maturity, quality policy templates to work off of, and appropriate access boundaries. Many of our buyers also used Vanta. And I suspected that Vanta itself, the platform and their brand, would be trusted as we went through security reviews. I can tell you that this absolutely has been the case and compliance is actually a revenue-driver for us. ### Step 3. Selecting an auditor After you select a platform, you need to select an auditor that will access your instance of that platform. It's how they create the report that represents your actual attestation. We interviewed several auditing firms and got different vibes from each. Some felt like report mills where they would just plug you into a process to get a PDF on the other side. We went with a smaller, more engaged, conscientious, and emerging technology-focused firm, Advantage Partners, based in Seattle. I felt like they would help us get to a place we’d be proud of. And they did. If you’re in the outbound space like we are, you may be happy to know this auditor also works with Clay. I learned later but it validated my decision when I learned this because I respect the Clay team, what they’re building, and how they’re doing it. Once you have your platform and your auditor, you just need to roll up your sleeves and work with your team. ### Step 4. Preparing for your audit This is the long, quiet part. Drafting policies. Reviewing templates. Cleaning up vendor lists. Configuring cloud infrastructure. Integrating tools and creating automations. During this time, a few critical things helped get us ready for our audit. - Having a typical tech stack. By using common tools, it was much easier to find integrations and documentation to ensure we were following everything we had to. - Learning from others. During our vendor assessment, I got SOC 2 Type II reports from a number of vendors and was able to learn how they did a few things I was unsure of. - Upgrading devops. Aikido helps us meet a few requirements and it's now part of our tech stack—we wouldn’t have been able to do this without their tool. - Pre-audit checklist. Our auditor shared a useful document that helped me understand a few policies that were difficult to develop. - Asking for help. Founder friends like Jade Null at GlitchSecure, Patrick Farwick at Amomitto Security, Daniel Zarick at Arrows, and Bec Hu at Channeled were incredibly generous with their time along the way. Any good GRC platform is going to provide templates and out of the box integrations to help you get started. Vanta certainly did for us. But they don't do everything for you. And the auditors don't get started at all until you're ready for them. Here be dragons! Don't be like other companies I've talked to that got stuck here. ### Step 5. Conduct your audit Once you're ready, you'll go through final review with your auditor and get to work. Audit window/observation periods vary. During this time you will be following all the policies and controls you put in-place earlier. Once the audit is complete, you'll review your audit with your auditor and provide a management representation or sign off that everything in the audit report is true. And you're done! ## How long did it take Here's a quick overview of how long it took us to complete the SOC 2 Type II process, from beginning to end. My understanding is that this experience is pretty typical but your mileage may vary. ## Was getting SOC 2 worth it? For us, the answer is yes—unquestionably. We closed deals in the month after getting compliant that exceeded our annual cost of compliance. More importantly, it made our company better. If you think of your data like water, we consider our role to be like that of an aqueduct, channeling it from one place to another. Especially from remote places (siloed tools) to central locations (your systems of record) where it's more valuable. As an infrastructure company, investing in our security and reliability will always be a priority as it's core to what we do. Our team sleeps easier knowing that we have: - Stronger processes - Documented fallbacks - Shared understanding across the team - A security posture we’re proud to show off It was a forcing function for growth. And now, a foundation for what’s next, the kind of company we’re trying to build for our partners and customers too. As the programmatic outbound and GTM engineering approach goes more mainstream, we believe more mid-market and enterprise customers will require it as companies like Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, and SASMail get more traction. We've certainly already seen it with Clay. ## The route we didn't take The security community can be pretty cynical. Fairly so. Add any cyber security professional to your group chat and they can share why. In practice, you can do checkbox security and “get away with it” with many customers. Just because you’ve made a SOC 2 attestation, it does not mean it will be accepted by your buyers. As lower quality GRC platforms and auditors have entered the market, I'd wager that the percentage of companies getting rejected during security reviews has gone up and will continue to go up. We didn't go that route. SOC 2 is a voluntary, self-attestation with limited guardrails. For the most part, it is not prescriptive. In many cases it states that you must have a policy—not what that policy should be. And you can deactivate controls that don’t apply to your company. It's up to each company to define what a good security posture looks like for them. We are doing our best to get this right from the start. ## Is that all? We’ve identified things we’ll implement in the next year to improve our security posture further. This includes the training, process documentation, and tooling that we use to run our company. But finishing the process did feel a little anti-climactic. Am I writing this blog post in pursuit of some closure? Perhaps... (Yes.) To learn more about our security program, visit OutboundSync's Trust Center, continuously monitoring 80 controls, subprocessors, and more. If you're interested in syncing outbound data to your system of record, contact us. And if you're just interested in SOC 2 in general, I hope this post helps you choose the right security posture for your company. Thanks for reading and good luck! ## One more thing We couldn’t have done this without joining TinySeed, the accelerator for bootstrapped SaaS companies. I have to acknowledge this because the capital from TinySeed made it possible for us to make this investment as early in our company's life as we did. Joining TinySeed changed the trajectory of our company. The guidance from their team, other founders in the batch, and of course the funding made this possible. And as the founder, it changed my life. If you're curious, I wrote about our decision to join TinySeed here: OutboundSync Selected for TinySeed Spring 2024

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep6: What the social Crackdown Means for GTM

Fri, 28 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this episode of the GTM Crossroads podcast, the hosts discuss the recent ban of Apollo and Seamless from social, exploring the implications for sales tools and prospecting strategies. They share personal anecdotes, including baking adventures, and emphasize the importance of adapting to social's evolving landscape while maintaining ethical practices in data usage. The conversation highlights the need for a balanced approach to leveraging social as a valuable resource for sales and marketing. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Brendan Tolleson (00:01.123) Alright gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Go To Market Crossroads. I missed y'all last week. How did the mayor, how did Rob Jones do? Zach (00:06.99) I'm Zach (00:11.67) What shall we say? We had fun, he didn't quite fill the void, but we had a blast. Harris Kenny (00:17.189) Yeah, attempted coup d'etat is what a lot of people are saying. Brendan Tolleson (00:19.555) Did he wear the orange suit or did he, did he? Harris Kenny (00:24.475) don't think so. Zach (00:25.336) even wear the orange suit. He had the neon sign. Harris Kenny (00:28.111) Yes. No, it was fun. And it was a fun like little like kind of like, you know, perspective on, okay, what are we, what are we doing here? What are we know? How is this going so far? And then talked about some content stuff. It was great. And he was talking about like thinking about doing some more podcast content through RP and I think he's totally shown. Brendan Tolleson (00:47.875) I don't if you guys, I'm trying to remember when he came out with that. I think it was on Thursday or, have y'all seen his like Kendrick Lamar rendition on social? Zach, if you haven't seen it. Harris Kenny (00:56.347) Yeah. That's as close to viral as you're gonna get on social. mean, that had hundreds and hundreds of... Brendan Tolleson (01:02.787) Yeah, I got her 500 and I got a HubSpot to engage. I'll just send it to you. And he just came out with a... If you guys back in your high school days were a Creed fan, he just came out with a rendition of a Creed song for Clay. My... What was it? My... It's off of My Sacrifice. I'll send it to you. It's a banger. Zach (01:09.08) I didn't even see that. Zach (01:24.95) I mean, fan or not, I mean, that's part of the zeitgeist for sure. Harris Kenny (01:31.735) Ciao! Brendan Tolleson (01:34.111) So that's that's what I had going on last week guys I would get alerts of a Rob Jones music video while I was on the beach so that that was my week last week which was a lot of fun and anything new in your world over last week? Zach (01:45.23) Oh man, I've been kind of fighting a cold, so sorry for the rastiness. If we had recorded this a few days ago, you guys would have suffered through an RFK Junior impression the whole time. But no, nothing exciting over here. Just beating the drum, marching forward. Harris Kenny (01:55.462) Ha ha ha! Harris Kenny (02:02.791) Yeah, we've had some sickness around our household as well, but I like to over promise and then over deliver. So yesterday my, went to the pediatrician, um, with our four year old and they were like, Hey, can we get a cake pop? You know, after, after we go like, yeah, totally. Like you're doing great. Cause they're not feeling well. You're doing great. We'll pick up whatever you need at the pharmacy. And I was like, you know what? Why don't we make cake pops? Cause my wife always takes them to. Starbucks to get a K-File. So here I am being like, well, let's make them from scratch. So anyway, like seven hours later, they were delicious, but it was a much bigger time commitment than I realized. I mean, I was up and down in the kitchen literally every hour and a half, like every hour to hour and a half for the entire day, but they were very good. I just had a little one after I just had my lunch. So life is good, but I don't want to bake. Brendan Tolleson (02:38.627) You Harris Kenny (03:01.223) for a couple days. Zach (03:02.99) Did we do multiple flavors or one flavor? How crazy? Harris Kenny (03:06.279) Good question. Well, it was triple chocolate, chocolate frosting, chocolate cake interior, and then chocolate dip on the outside. And then, and then all sorts of different sprinkles. Our favorite color is rainbow. So that means there's all sorts of sprinkles. Yeah. Yeah. Zach (03:21.87) about jammies. Brendan Tolleson (03:21.891) That's when you buy the bullet just pay the eight dollars for the Starbucks kick pop Zach (03:27.128) Yeah Harris Kenny (03:29.445) You know, I think it was reminding me of my econ like 101 back in college of like, yeah, division of labor. Zach (03:29.592) That was like... Zach (03:36.972) Yeah, we definitely had that college experience making beer for the first time. like, we're gonna make beer, it's gonna be so awesome. And then like three months later, you end up with shitty beer and you're like, you know what, like eight bucks for a six pack is like a really good deal. Brendan Tolleson (03:36.995) I'm gonna go get money, man. Harris Kenny (03:51.897) No. Brendan Tolleson (03:54.083) We started doing a bread making at our house, which I guess a lot of people did during COVID, but I still do it. And we have some friends that I tell them how long it takes me to make bread, which it's not sourdough, so it's not like days, but it takes about three hours from start to finish. And she's like, why? Like, why would you do that? Just order this on Instacart as at your dorm. Sometimes it's the process, guys, you know? Harris Kenny (04:23.013) Yeah, yeah, I'd like to think of it some memories. I'd like to think that there was some, you know, we're in like core memory formation. Zach (04:32.302) What's the uh with sourdough? I'm like blank on the name right now the yeast. Is it like the mother you keep or what's starter the starter? My uh my sister she's really into baking too and she like she will like bring her starter with her and she's like if my like she'll travel with it because she's like if my husband lets us die like I'm getting a divorce so I bring it with me. Harris Kenny (04:37.895) Mm. Brendan Tolleson (04:38.269) it's the starter. Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (04:52.193) Yeah. Harris Kenny (04:52.359) Ha ha ha! Brendan Tolleson (04:55.011) Yeah, my buddy actually just quit his job to start a bakery and sourdough specifically. And like he'll come to mountains with us and he'll bring like all like he has to bring his starter at all times. Similar to what you just described. It's pretty insane. The commitment is surreal. yeah. Well, I don't have a good segue from starter to the topic today. So we're just going to jump right in. There's not a lot happening in the market outside of just our little updates and Zach (05:08.654) Yeah. Harris Kenny (05:10.352) I had no idea. Zach (05:16.366) Hahaha Brendan Tolleson (05:22.659) I thought a fun one for us to talk about is what happened with Apollo and Seamless. For those that aren't aware, they got booted off of social. And I think it's just a good, not that data point, but just why it happened, because I think it's really relevant to our audience as we think about how do we do prospecting or outreach, how do we do that well in this new world? Because I think there's a lot of takeaways from that, not from Apollo specifically, but what is social doing and therefore what are the right actions, behaviors? that we as revenue leaders need to be mindful of as our sales teams are doing outreach. So I think a good starting point, starting point rather would be for those that may not know what happened, Harris or Zach, you want to take the stage as to what happened and then we'll kind of unpack implications and therefore takeaways for our audience going forward. Zach (06:13.934) You want to take the B-Terrorist and then I got some thoughts about game theory. Harris Kenny (06:16.293) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll do the what I'll do the what? Cause I don't even fully know why, to be honest with you. mean, I have some like scattered data points, but I mean, what happened is that the Apollo. So if you go to Apollo.io, that's the company we're talking about competitor, probably closest big competitor would be like a zoom info alternative. and seamless.ai their company pages were basically blasted off of social. So it's as if they don't exist. And like, if you go to an Apollo employees page, for example, and you look at like their employment experience, the icon next to their job is like a, you know, little ping of a building. like, it's like, it's like you reference the company that doesn't exist. Yeah. They've been canceled. Yeah. I canceled essentially. and like, if you search for it, nothing comes up, but it's, it's just the company pages, on social were taken out. Brendan Tolleson (06:59.939) or they'll be canceled. Harris Kenny (07:15.067) So that's the what Tim Zhang, the founder of them saying that his last name correctly, but he had posted something, something about it a little bit. could talk about that. smart lead had had an experience that was kind of like this six to 12 months ago. So could talk about that. But I mean, I mean the what, that is the only thing that's as far as I know, like really clearly understood the like why and everything. I don't know. And the reasons in the game theory behind it, like we can, we can kind of unpack this and make some guesses, but that's, that's, that's, that's, that's what happened. Zach (07:44.27) Yeah, it's an interesting one. Speaking as a former socialer, no, just a, where they're like 10 years ago in sales, don't know much. But I would say like maybe to give some like, you know, this isn't like out of the blue. Like I will say like, you know, I was working there, God, I mean, 15 years ago, more realistically. Back then, before there was Sales Navigator. We on the sales team, we got to the benefit of being at social, it's like we had all that data, we used it ourselves to sale. And it was like a big existential debate at the company at the time, I remember. Are we gonna build sales to, are we going to sacrifice some level of the member experience for the benefit of clearly there is valuable data here? And obviously that ship sailed, Sales Nav is now a, you know. billion ARR plus business, it's a tent pole of social, it ain't going anywhere. But like I do think there is this genuine struggle that they're up against of like, how do we create a vibrant, engaging community and have all these positive network effects that people want to come in, build content, connect with others, do all these things and then. how do you not turn it into just a spam den where you're just getting blasted by everybody? And it's been something they've been up against forever. so there was like, famously they had a court case that went all the way up to the Supreme Court versus basically people that were scraping social data. And there ended up being a ruling that scrapers, you're allowed to scrape public data. And I think what a lot of these companies that they're, again, The game theory is like, why Apollo is seamless, right? Because there are thousands of actors kind of like flaunting the terms of service and like clearly breaking the rules and even out of bounds of like what the Supreme Court says, okay. But it seems to be they need to like continue like push back on this pendulum. And it's like interesting because there's all kinds of stuff like. Brendan Tolleson (09:39.587) This is fun. Zach (09:57.856) automating DMs, not just scrape. All of that stuff is that is verboten. And they can detect that stuff. They know it's happening and they're needing to play with this knob and dial of how hard do we drop the hammer versus there is a data asset here. salespeople and this level, it does drive velocity and momentum and engagement in the community as well, but how do we allow just enough to get through? So it's an interesting, I don't think we've seen the end of it. I'm sure Apollo and Seamless will be back. They're gonna find a way to negotiate. like, the other thing social has created, how can you be a serious company and not have a page up? now, social has the cards for sure, but it'll be interesting to see. Harris Kenny (10:46.693) Yeah, I mean the one other thing I'll just say really quick and then Brendan I want to know obviously what you think but we don't know why Right. I mean this is the issue with I mean the only thing I could imagine that would maybe bother someone there more than my opinions about anything about an automation would be discussion of like Monopoly and antitrust policy but the reality is like there is no alternative to that platform realistically and so They are not really there are not these like competing. I mean, I'm sure they would argue there is I don't know maybe there is But what are you gonna use? X, it's not the same thing at all. In a sense, sure, you've got these different networking platforms, but it is what it is, right, for a reason. I think it's in really strong position. And the reality is there's not competition, there's not alternatives. They have a pretty, they can do a lot. They don't have to explain what they're doing, they don't have to fully explain why, and what's the alternative, what are people gonna do about it? And I'm not saying this decision was right or wrong, by the way. I don't know. I don't even, because the thing is like, we don't even know why we can't even debate like, what was it? What was it that caused them to give them the boot? What is, that was the problem? Like, and so to me that makes it really hard to even like, yeah, know what to do about it. Zach (11:56.652) Yeah. I think the, again, all theory, but as I best understand it, like, for people that this is a new issue for them, the like removing of the company page is kind of like, that is a punishment separate from like, what's the crime? I think the crime is that people Apollo was using their extension that has wide distribution. So like their Chrome extension has millions and millions of users. When you're logged in as an individual user, you are able to see things on a page that are not necessarily deemed public information. And basically, again, I think the, best theory and I think pretty well supported is like those companies were using that extension basically as a backdoor way to scrape using individual users real cookies so like they're not getting blocked, go scrape private non-public profile data, suck that into their database and then they're obviously reselling that to everybody and I think that's like social's like, all right, you're doing, there are multiple like change in this violation and like what can we do to get your attention? Boot your page. Brendan Tolleson (13:06.849) Yeah. Yeah. I think it's similar to, gosh, I remember SalesLoft, like one of their first products, which was freaking awesome. If you were in sales, like six years ago, was Prospector and it did a lot of this with social. It's the same type of stuff. I think to your point, the most predominant theory that I've seen is really around the Chrome extension and what it's giving them access to. And I think to your earlier point, Harris, like, I mean, there is a reason why Microsoft paid Zach (13:07.636) Haha Harris Kenny (13:08.038) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (13:35.395) know, however much it was, I it was like $26 billion to have social. It is a very strong competitive mode that I don't think anyone has access to that type of data. I think in addition to just like the Chrome extension, there is the user experience. And I think they also want to be mindful of, like they want people to like to use social. And the more automation, the more data that's getting out and the more, I have an experience, like the much crap I'm starting to get, it's like, I'm tired of being on social. And so I think there is they need to protect that if they want to continue to have this be that place that people go to from a from a network perspective. Harris Kenny (14:11.207) Mm-hmm. Zach (14:11.406) And shout out to one of the great acquisitions of all time, Power Move by Microsoft, like 26 billion now, like social is a standalone company. be, you know, they wouldn't be Mag-7, but they'd be like, you know, I don't know, Mag-10, like it would be a $500 billion plus company on its own probably. And Salesforce is gonna acquire them for 26 billion stock. And then Microsoft at the last minute said all cash and swooped the deal. What a move. Brendan Tolleson (14:16.022) Yeah. Harris Kenny (14:30.331) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (14:38.855) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (14:39.55) Yeah. Well, so let's transition a little bit into we talk about the what and a little bit of the why, but I think that probably the most important thing for a lot of folks that are listening here. So what do I do? Because we, I don't think anyone's denying, as we just said, social is a great source as relates to information to get access to the buyer. So what do they do as it relates to what tools should they be mindful of or? Harris Kenny (14:41.873) Totally. Brendan Tolleson (15:05.815) having to adjust their practices, methods, tools to ensure that they can still use this as a channel by which to engage with the buyer. Zach (15:15.755) I I mean, I think there has to be, I guess maybe some level of recognition of like, social is this special place. If we just take, take, take and try and automate the hell out of it and treat it the same way we did email forever, it ain't gonna work. look what happened to email. It's gotten way harder, the walls get higher, it becomes more costly and expensive. And I think people are maybe just starting to treat social the same way. that just, the rules of the road are changing. So I think, I think we all know in our businesses how valuable and strategic that network is and treat it as such. Different channels. I'm not saying don't automate things on social or whatnot, but I think the first step is probably going, hey, this is a special, unique, strategic place for us as individuals, us as stewards of our brand and company, and we need to be good citizens here. Otherwise, man, this is gonna suck if we get banned. If we don't have this access directly to our buyers and this ability to engage in a way that is different than email and complimentary and all these things feed into each other, I'd say for us personally, we're very, very light, I would say. I'm almost scared to admit it out loud, but I do know social automation, because I'm personally, I'm like, man, if I got my social experience interrupted in any way, it would be the... blow to our business. I'm extremely cautious there. I don't think necessarily you need to be that cautious, that's probably the first step for everybody is like, what does it mean to you? Treat it as such. Harris Kenny (16:58.919) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think in this era of founder-led sales, at least in this segment of the market that we're in, definitely, you see people like Adam Robinson and stuff. I mean, they're building big companies off of their personal presence on social. so, I mean, I think it's like, what's your risk tolerance to, right? So it's like, what's it worth? And then what are you willing to risk in general? The problem with enforcement on things like this is that the more that they enforce, then the people who are able to figure it out, there's more reward. You know, it's like anytime, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, they can't keep certain contraband products out of prisons, you know, cause if you crank down on it enough, then they'll be able to, you know, bribe the guards or whatever and you get the stuff inside, you know, and so, I mean, unless you're in like a super max or whatever, you know, it's just, and so there is this cat and mouse game. There's like this ecological balance between the platforms and then the people who court of follow rules and the people who kind of bend the rules and the people who just blatantly are breaking the rules to the degree to which they're defined anywhere. And so think you have to define, I mean, the reality is like social data is very available in lots of places from lots of different providers. I mean, there are companies that literally have cached copies of social that they get just by scraping public web. And... that they then resell and make available in lots of places. And you don't have to install anything. there's a good chance if someone is using any of these modern tools that we talk about every week on here, there's a very good chance that you are unwittingly using data that was extracted from social in some way, even if you're not aware of it, right? That said, you can have degrees of separation from that extracted data and separate yourself and separate and like really, really, really reduce your risk, obviously. Zach (18:37.41) No. Right. Zach (18:47.511) Yeah. Harris Kenny (18:52.647) because if you're buying it from someone who's themselves buying it from like a data wholesale or whatever, they don't, you I mean, and the other thing is like, it's not their proprietary information. I mean, like, I mean, I understand like fundamentally that they collect it. I'm not saying people should go steal data from social, but it's like, it is not social's information that I work for my company. Like they have their, they know that, but it's not like their IP. You know what I mean? It's like a fact about me. Zach (18:59.426) Yeah, yeah, I think. Harris Kenny (19:22.535) So some of this stuff is kind of blurry of like, and I'm the one that's providing it anyway, users are the one that is furnishing this data in the first place, and now they've built a good platform around that. But to me, the questions of ethics and the lines, and where do you draw the line for your organization, to me it's not super cut and dry. And I'm pretty small C conservative. I also don't do any automation, by the way, at all, and I never have. So I'm not saying people should go out and be super risky about it, but. I do think it's like a nuanced conversation and it's not as straightforward as like some people bad, some people good, you know? Zach (19:56.12) Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's like, there will always be tools and data available. Like it is an arms race. It will be available to your organization. I think yeah, the question is really like how much pain are we willing to put up with? Harris Kenny (20:09.98) Yeah. Zach (20:10.924) What do we want our experience to be there? How do we want it to be like any other channel? There will be an arms dealer that will sell you the data or sell you the automation. I would anticipate social continues to raise that floor of, right, it's maybe way too easy for people to... They know what people are doing. They aren't being fooled. They're making the same calculus of, all right, how much do we need to invest to stop all these actions? you know. Harris Kenny (20:41.703) Yeah, I agree. I I spend a ton of time on the platform. I'm a power user. I post a lot. I DM a lot of different people on it. I comment and engage. It's kind of a water cooler for me in a lot of ways, especially like being a solo founder. That's how I keep in touch with a lot of people. Like I'm a fan. I like, I like social. Like I could do with fewer messages, obviously catfishing me into trying to sell me crypto, you know, but I spend time on the platform nonetheless. Brendan Tolleson (21:06.883) Yeah, I think we just remind the way I'm thinking about it is it's a data source and it's one of many data sources. And we feel like it is the only one that we rely on. going to be in a lot of trouble. And I think there's a, saying of like married to the mission, but date the process. like, in my mind, it's like, Hey, we are. all in on this all-bound approach where there is a demand generation. We have to have an inbound motion and an outbound motion, and social plays a part in that. But how do you do that strategy effectively? And depending on where you sit in the organization, whether you're the founder, the CEO, you're an SDR, an AE, social is part of the toolkit. And so you need to understand the rules of the road as the way in which to engage. And I think what we're seeing is... We have some automation, I'm not gonna lie, but what we're trying to figure out is how do we do value at first? And we joked even at beginning, it's about Rob's ridiculous videos. But like what that allows for us to do is have content that people wanna engage with that then strike conversation. And so it's taking kind of a reverse approach of how we think about outreach and it's inviting people in to then having that conversation be one that they actually are opting into as opposed to spamming somebody's inbox. That's one of big takeaways for me is that we just have to remind ourselves this is not the end all be all. And this to me is kind of like the original sin of the apple and took a bite and it probably bit them in the end. so it's just a good reminder of kind of what its place is in the overall strategy. so that's where we've landed on our side. Zach (22:42.36) Yeah. Harris Kenny (22:42.437) Yeah. Yeah, I agree. We will. know we're to wrap here. I mean, my last thought on this is just like hedging, hedging across the providers using hedging across the channels are using using the public and open web. There's tons of data sources available and with tools like clay, you can take advantage of them. Public records, databases, you know, maps, things like that. I think it's just like not, not putting all your eggs in one basket. And then deciding within that, how much risk you want to take on. Zach (23:08.684) Yeah, totally. You guys want to know one kind of cool factoid? So I used to work at this company that was involved. Basically, they were kind of like an anti-bot company. So like, would help. Brendan Tolleson (23:13.357) Yes. Zach (23:22.1) sites like social potentially detect unwanted automation and bots on your site. perfectly straight line from like one point in the screen to another. How fast is that happening? Like they know like, hey, what is a actual human movement of a mouse look like? And it's like, it's just interesting to like, they know. Brendan Tolleson (23:53.706) Hello. Zach (24:05.236) all of that stuff. it's like, you know, don't for a second think like we're safe for, this is maybe more a message to like everybody else out there is like, it's a true like crazy cyber war. They know everything and like there is really game three behind it of like, okay, they, costs them compute to like go stop all this stuff. So it's like, to what level do we need to instrument every, you know, the billions of sessions we have a day to detect all these, like there are 1 million things like that they're looking for. And it's just, it's, it's super interesting. It's like, it'll be, it'll be cool to see. And it all gets easier with an eye on both sides too. Brendan Tolleson (24:36.835) Yeah, and it's a powerful signal because they caught out two. We asked why they'd caught two, but for every two, there's about 100 that are doing the same thing. And so probably scared the crap out of a lot of folks and we'll start seeing behavior change, I would imagine. But people are always going to try and push the boundary and that makes us ultimately, I think, better. So it'll be fun development. Well, guys, thanks for sharing your insights. This is a fun topic. I know a lot. This has been top of mind for a lot of people, so hearing your perspective is certainly helpful as we all try to figure this thing out together. Harris Kenny (25:08.359) All right, thanks guys. Brendan Tolleson (25:09.859) See you. Zach (25:10.766) Bye. Harris Kenny (25:11.591) See you on Monday.

GTM strategies that work: An interview with Harris Kenny

Wed, 26 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this episode of Bridge the Gap powered by Revenue Reimagined, the team sits down with Harris Kenny, founder of OutboundSync, to explore how B2B teams can finally bring order to top-of-funnel chaos. Harris shares insights from working with hundreds of companies syncing millions of outbound records across platforms like Smartlead, Instantly, Clay, HubSpot, and Salesforce. We dive into how OutboundSync helps sales and marketing teams attribute revenue, sync activities, manage block lists, and integrate outbound data directly into CRMs for full-funnel visibility. Whether you’re running outbound in-house or through an agency, Harris offers a clear framework on when outbound at scale works, how to avoid costly data silos, and why thoughtful CRM automation is the foundation for go-to-market success. If you’re navigating the complexities of modern outbound, this episode is packed with real-world examples, tactical advice, and a candid look at what’s next in the outbound sales ecosystem. Watch below, via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. ## Watch: Cold Email Is DEAD… Unless You Do This | GTM Strategies That Actually Work ## Transcript 00:06 Welcome back to another episode of Bridge the Gap powered by Revenue Reimagined. We have Harris Kenny with us today who is the founder of Outbound. 00:13 I think it's a super cool tool because it solves a problem that I'm dealing with right now. How do you attribute revenue, sync activities, manage block lists from tools like smart lead and instantly that do outbound at scale that don't historically tie back to your CRM. 00:30 Prior to that, Harris ran a Gold tier HubSpot Solutions partner agency. We could certainly talk about that because we do that as well. 00:37 Um, was one of the first clay experts and spent past life scaling hardware companies and selling ERP consulting. Man, you've done a little bit of everything. 00:47 Welcome to the show. Thanks. Good to be here. Yeah, bounced around. It took me, it took me some time to figure out what I'm doing, but I'm also not young. 00:54 So that helps. Alright, I mean, Dale's old. I mean, you're not young now. I'm not young. Dale's old. I'm old. 01:02 It's definitely true. Although, now that I've shaved my beard off, I'm a little bit younger. But, um, Well, if you, I mean, one, one, one of our clients did send me a slack yesterday being like, oh my god, that looks so young without a beer. 01:14 True story. That's great. Well, if you follow Brian Johnson, you know, maybe, maybe we can extend our lives a bit here. 01:19 We'll see how it goes. Yeah. Second person this week to tell us about true story. Yeah. Yeah. I follow Brian a little bit. 01:27 Adam's like, who is that? So we're, we're trying to get Adam into the 24th century and taking care of himself, but we'll see how that progresses. 01:33 Jim, every morning, man. So Harris, you know, one of the, one of the big things that we've always had is struggling with and actually the market struggling with is like out on a scale or top of funnel or like any of these things that we talk through. 01:47 Um, and it's a problem that you're trying to help solve with partnerships like, uh, instantly, smartly, et cetera. Where should people be starting to think about out on a scale? 02:00 Is it as they're building? Is it after product market fit? Is it where is it in the life cycle of building an organization? 02:08 Yeah. Well, I think where we're so a little bit about OutboundSyncsync. So we've got hundreds of companies using our product now. 02:16 Uh, we've got we've synced tens of millions of records. So we do have some visibility into where We're seeing things working, and I do think about this. 02:25 I split this in my head of, are you working with an agency or not? Because if you're working with an agency, it's going to fundamentally change the types of plays you can run and what you can do with the data, and frankly, how quickly you can move versus if you're a direct team and the types of resources 02:41 and the types of people required to be successful. Um, why is that? Why do you split that way? Well, I mean, we just see a really big difference between like the on our side, the amount of time it takes for a team to move forward, for example. 02:57 Uh, now, just like to get their bearings, we have a company we've been talking to, they are, I don't want to be named names, y'all just say they're using a conventional sequencer. 03:09 And they're like, look, we're landing in spam. We know we need multiple domains. We know that instantly solves this problem for, that they, you know, liked instantly for their use case. 03:17 We know instantly solves this problem for us. Problem is, we went to go cancel our contract and, um, they auto-vernued us automatically, right? 03:24 So you have this, like, these, like, variety of things that, like, a traditional team has in place. Now, in this situation, like, they have a really strong internal person. 03:33 I would say that is the X factor of, like, do you have an internal person that themselves can drive this entire conversation across the internal org around, like, hey, here's the problem. 03:44 They need to be able to pick up and learn really quickly about the liberal arts and other things. Have the, the kind of the guts to be like, what we're doing right now is not working. 03:53 I'm gonna be the one to say it out loud. Um, you know, and then, and then to do the research and then to find there's a lot they have to be able to do and then, and then get that will with, if you're working with an agency, like, it's not the agency themselves, they bring a lot of skills, but also the 04:05 decision to hire an agency seems to suggest like, A decision has been made. A commitment has been made. Let's bring in someone to solve this. 04:13 And so we just find that companies that do that are able to get stuff off the ground faster. I'm not saying it's better or worse, but so then the question of like at what stage do companies do this kind of outbound that like start to affect it? 04:23 Because if you're working with an agency and you have a really clear goal of like, I want to test my positioning or I want to test a couple different ways to then you can do it earlier with different expectations. 04:32 But if you want pipeline generated Yeah, there's some traction, there's some offers. You have to know what to put into clay to get the right lists, um, you know, to know the numbers, the dial and then you do the validation, you do, but you have reps that can do calling. 04:48 It's definitely becoming a game for company with more resources, I think, um, versus I think what I, I think what I heard you say, I think what I was hearing you say was like the agency model. 04:58 We'll just get you there faster, more efficiently, more effectively, versus like, if you're doing it internally, it's almost like a side product. 05:04 Yes. It's like, okay, do all your other work. And then like, oh, by the way, we also have to figure out this up on a scale type of motion. 05:10 Yep. So it would, like, it's a, it's a matter of, and I say this a lot with like sales and marketing, like, Sales people can help you generate awareness outside, but it could take you 12 to 18 months to do that where marketing may take you six months. 05:24 Yep. And I think that analogy is probably the same as, like, if I burn agency, because they do this all the time, they know all the modifications, because things are changing so quickly, right? 05:33 It's like, just because it worked today, like a month from now, whatever you did today is not really going to be working, and you guys are on top of that all the time. 05:41 Yep. Yeah. I think the side project analogy is like exactly right. Because that's what I mean, I look, I get an email at eight o'clock. 05:47 From, you know, uh, head of sales, an email eight o'clock at night, being like, okay, I did a bunch of research about how to set up domains. 05:52 Like, can you tell me about DKIM? And it's like, you obviously just pushed your kids to bed. I know because I did the same thing, right? 06:00 And now we're getting online for our second shift. So I think the side-gig analogy is exactly right. Our second shift, that's fun. 06:08 Yeah. Um, does our budget scale work? And let me piggyback off that for a second. So, there's a gazillion AI tools out there, right? 06:17 There's a gazillion agencies out there all claiming, you know, we could enrich everything amazingly through clay and like we're gonna get you this great data, but you're still gonna send out 10,000 emails and you're gonna get a 1% response rate. 06:32 Like, is outbound at scale worth investing in? And I understand you're a little biased based on your product, but like, does it work and if so, where? 06:40 Yeah, well, I would say with our product sometimes Customers use our product to disprove that, you know, to say, oh, I've been, it's not working. 06:49 Um, and that's okay too. Right. I mean, my court believe me. As long as they pay the subscription, I don't particularly care what they use it for. 06:56 Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that's part of why we're like going to be looking at moving it, supporting other channels is because it's like maybe email isn't working or maybe this, you know, and so it's like, okay, what about social, what about phones? 07:06 But I mean, like our core, my core thesis has been like, look, this We had the, like, period of, like, the early sequencers for whatever five, seven years, now outreach created the, created the category, I think, um, and sales loft and these other players. 07:21 But that, like, one, one rep in one seat with, like, that has a one ZoomInfo seat, and they have one sequencer seat with one domain, with one domain, with one CRM seat, that areas. 07:32 Is over basically. Um, I'm not saying that people aren't continuing to use all of those tools, but the use cases different than it was before. 07:40 And so, um, The question is like, what is this new, what is, what is different now? And when people switched to different tools to get deliverability edge or to get like different better data, maybe more segmented custom data with clay, there is still this like phone home problem. 07:57 And so I think the main thing that we're trying to solve right now is that People chose new tools to get an edge, but then those new tools on the edge don't phone home. 08:05 And so they can't say confidently whether it's working or not. And even like, what is success? Is it positive reply right away? 08:12 What if outbound influences a lead that converts through another channel like paid ads? Does that count? Does the app on get credit for that? 08:18 Well, we don't know because there's no record that we email them in the first place. So that that's kind of where I think where we sit where the market is. 08:24 I think the market's very, it's very early in a lot of ways for these new tools in my opinion. So I, I hear you, um, and I hear everything you're saying and I agree with you. 08:34 But where does outbound at scale work and where it doesn't? Yeah. Like, I'm looking for a very, very definitive answer. 08:42 Sure, sure. I'm a series A or series B or series C or I have three BDRs. She thinks I'm talking to her and I'm not. 08:49 Um, where does outbound at scale work and I, yeah. To piggyback us, I love that you said we can be used to prove that it doesn't, because I'm a big believer there's places where it doesn't, and you have to be able to track the activity to know that it doesn't. 09:01 Yeah. I can give you some examples of people that are real companies that I see in a Slack that are booking meetings right now. 09:08 You don't even have to name them? Yeah, I won't name them because I can't. Um, but like, um, so, okay, there's, um, there are, uh, like busy There are, there's, there's types of products where customers are repeat buyers. 09:26 Uh, so there's a company that does, well, they've talked about this publicly so I can say this publicly. An agency that we work with called C17, they work with a merch company called Jamio. 09:35 And so in Jameo's a little different because they have really, really high quality merch. Like if you want to buy merch, most of the companies, like it's really cheap and it's flunzy and this hard gets good stuff. 09:45 And so they take up like more of a higher value approach. And so what C17 did was they developed a really good offer. 09:51 So, okay, so it's like an ingredient one of why this is working is that companies are repeatedly buying merch. So if they're not buying it right now, they might be buying it in three months, right? 10:00 So that is like a prerequisite to this being a thing. There's like an acknowledgement of a problem. There's typically a set aside budget. 10:05 They're kind of, they're in motion. There's a little bit of friction because they've got like a commitment to maybe a certain vendor. 10:10 They've got like a pre-configured shirt design with an existing shirt printer. So, okay, we gotta get them. To consider doing something else besides clicking the reorder button. 10:20 Um, and so what they did was they developed a good offer. And the offer was, we'll develop, our designers will develop for you a custom, they call them jams, but like some custom looks basically with some of our higher quality merch, some of our fleeces and things like that. 10:34 If you're game, Mike, I can send it to you and you let me know if it, if it looks cool. 10:38 And it's like a very, very low risk offer. And so they are crushing it on that campaign. I mean, they're booking a ton of meetings and it's extremely successful for them. 10:47 Um, because it's something compelling, people like to see their brand use in different ways. A lot of times the person that's designing the shirts and ordering the shirts, like, they're looking for new ideas on how to do things and they want to keep it fresh. 10:57 They don't want to just do the logo with like, uh, the founder designed version of merch, which is like the logo is like 300x. 11:06 So that's one example where I can tell you for a fact that's winning. So yeah, um, we can we can go through some more, um, other people that I'm seeing winning are that are combining multiple channels. 11:15 So they're using paid ads plus email or they're using phones plus link plus, um, plus like some social touches and things like that. 11:24 Um, to to find the right channel for the right person, um, because not everyone what you just said is key though. 11:31 It's not just email. And I tell this to everyone. Outbound at scale, I think has its place. There's a place for brand awareness. 11:39 I'm also a big believer the goal of any campaign is to book a meeting, right? It's to get a response. 11:45 Yes or no to get a response and ultimately to book that meeting. Yeah. If you, and I'm super curious your thoughts on this, if you go start doing outbound at scale and we're going to email 10,000 people and hope that we're going to get great response rates and they're going to book a meeting and all 11:58 we're going to do is email them. You're going to be f***** part my French. If we do outbound at scale and couple that with a multi-channel approach and we add in phone calls, we add in social, and we make sure that those emails are high value, that's where I think your outbound at scale has its place 12:13 . But if you are just outbounding, barring very few niche industries, do I think people are going to be like Holy s***, Harris. 12:20 I have been waiting for your email for the past three months of my life. The timing is perfect that you sent this and I cannot wait to get on the phone with it. 12:28 Yeah. Well, so okay, let me drive a bus. I agree, but let me drive a bus through that. Accept me. 12:32 Do it man. Do it. Because I do think there are a lot of industries and I will also say like geographic markets. 12:39 Where the recipients are less, let's just say cynical, maybe, or less like fatigued without reach, where we do have agencies that are using alternative data provider sources, like scraping Google Maps directly and going to other places, state scraping, like public databases of business registrations 12:57 and different types of like liquor tax registration, restaurant, reg, whatever, things like that, where, where they are succeeding with a single channel. 13:06 But like others, We know we have a, you know, the customer that, um, Where they saw contractors and like a lot of those contractors like they don't even they don't even have websites at all You know, and they're using a Gmail address kind of thing But then if you find them on Angie's list, you see oh 13:21 actually, this is a very good roofing company that has Tons of reviews and they could totally use this product So yeah, I mean, I think that that that specialized industry like what does that mean that can also mean different geographic markets I know that we have some agency partners in Europe who are 13:35 Absolutely printing money because they're sending their cold emails in Dutch To people that speak Dutch. And they it's like it's like you turn back the clock and it's like it's 2016. 13:47 And people are like, Hey, oh my gosh. Like, thanks for emailing me. This is great. They are treating like that because they don't ever get emails like that. 13:54 Um, so it's like the future is here, but it's just not even so it works outside of B2B tech. Yeah, definitely. 14:00 Oh, definitely. And I that's And Dale, I know you're like, f*** dude, let me talk. But that's another thing that I don't think people realize we work with a lot of tech companies. 14:09 We talk to a lot of tech companies who see email at scale every day, who see 100 coal calls every day. 14:15 There's lots of industries out there. Even social is the same thing where none of the shit exists. This is so novel to them that people do respond. 14:24 Now I'll let Dale speak. Thanks for getting my coffee this morning, man. Let's face it, y'all. 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I think it's more, I think it's like beyond that as well. 15:30 It's like we're back to fundamentals and sales. Where do your buyers live? Yeah. And if they live in a place like we're working with a client that, you know, they're in the construction industry as well and they're, you'll get them on the phone and much faster you get them on email because they'll be 15:45 on job sites or, you know, they'll be in the middle of something. So you can send as many emails as you want at that point, but Uh, it may be a supplemental piece, so as you're going through, like calling them, calling them, then sending an email versus, like, email first and call. 16:01 So it's all about where the buyers, the buyers live, um, in the space. Um, I want to switch topics a little bit here. 16:10 So, um, what was the prep, but like, why'd you say, like, let's, let's build up on the sink. What are The first three things when you were kind of like building out the foundational elements of your business, that you found challenging, that now you can like say, good, I kind of put a bow on that, and 16:29 I can move forward off of it. Hmm. Well, the first thing I was running a HubSpot agency, which we could talk about, like really was at a great experience being a hotspot partner program. 16:41 We were also doing outbound because I was originally doing outbound and then we had these clients that were all using HubSpot and I decided, okay, well why don't we why don't I join HubSpot Partner Program too and so originally I was doing sales consulting like back in April 2019 and went out on my own 16:56 and We had clients who were asking hey, can you Get this outbound data like sort of like duh. Can you get this outbound data in HubSpot actually? 17:05 It's like oh, that's a great question currently. No, I can't So the first question was Um, does anybody want that? 17:14 Do people want to stop on data inside of their CRM or not? Because, like, at the time, none of these tools had any integrations, and even now a couple of them have introduced some very basic ones, but nothing like, um, you know, in all humility, nothing like what we've built, because this is all we do 17:27 . So, like, we better, we better make it better. Um, otherwise, what business, you know, what are we doing? Um, so, We started to get requested people being like, hey, I don't, I don't want your agency services. 17:37 I just want the app. So that was kind of like that first checkbox. I was like, okay, yeah, I think there's room for this. 17:42 Um, and then I think the second big question was, okay, but then our, our bigger companies, um, willing to use these new tools. 17:53 And at the time two years ago, like, that was not, Clear that that was going to happen. None of these tools had SOC 2 type II. 18:00 Not a lot of companies denied that that this was even an issue. They're like we're landing in the primary we're landing in the inbox. 18:06 Just fine. What are you talking about? Um, I believed because of a couple of early calls that we had that that it would happen and that the mid market, um, would move in this direction, but that at the time was very unclear. 18:18 Now that is like definitely the case. I mean, we have Um, some really great customers. We have quite a few series D companies who are using our products like that, that is now this mood, this kind of growth hacking movement has gone mainstream, I think. 18:31 Um, and then I think yeah, which is really exciting. So those are, I think probably the two, um, two of the big ones. 18:39 And, and I think that third question was like, okay, people agree they want the data in, in the system of record, they want it in HubSpot or Salesforce. 18:46 Um, but then like, what are they going to do with it? And that I think we are still in the process of, um, getting better and better at identifying like workflows and automation and how to set up call tasks and how to set up revenue attribution reports. 18:59 And that I think is going to be the like, the long term. Project of like, how do we help? And maybe the scary part is like, how do we get too much data? 19:08 Do we have too much data? Yeah, and like, how do we manage all this data? Like, is there a use for the data? 19:14 So yeah, that's an interesting challenge. Oh, definitely. Well, and I think tied into that, it's like what we're starting to see, like in the past three weeks, uh, or maybe a month, I've had three different people ask me about sending this data to snowflake. 19:26 So like, Which to me is like holy enterprise bad name I haven't heard in a long time, but yeah, you know, um, and so it's like are we sending I were sending too much or are we not sending enough because what they're they're considering like like a CDP almost They're like we're running tons and tons of 19:42 tons of paid ads and impressions We've got like an insane amount of data and we want even more we have this like Veracious appetite to push everything into a data warehouse and then from there, we'll take care of sending it where it needs to go. 19:53 And so like on the one hand, you've got the CRM where it's like, okay, the CRM is sacred. We don't want to push too much in here. 19:58 But then there's this other conversation of like, okay, but what if every single data point is something that we want to capture? 20:04 Um, so that I don't know where that's going to go. It's only come up a couple of times, but it's already kind of given me that it's already giving like, I think there's more there. 20:11 It just feels exactly. Well, then you could just add. You can aggregate the data outside of the CRM and only push in the calculations on what you really want into the CRM versus like the raw data. 20:23 Like the raw data, is it interesting position for people that have a data warehouse? Is it, is a question like, do we, do we push it into a place where we aggregate it and give you the right data points versus having to aggregate it inside the CRM? 20:37 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think it's still pretty early days, and this is why I'm such a believer in agencies. 20:44 Like, this stuff is super complicated. And so, anything that's complicated enough, you've got someone to help you think through it. 20:52 No matter what it is in life, you know what I mean. So I just, that's why I'm a big believer. 20:56 Some, some, some people are skeptics of agencies in the space and they say, oh, agencies are going to die or this type of agency is going to work as going to die. 21:01 Or, you know, I've seen some software companies be like, we use agencies for like our early validation, but now we're like moving up market, we're moving on. 21:08 And like I fundamentally disagree with that. I do not think agencies are going anywhere. Um, sure it'll change here. Well, that's good to know. 21:16 I really believe that. That's a huge part of our business model and it's a huge core belief in mine. I don't think. 21:21 It's just, this stuff is too hard, like, I'm sorry, you know, nobody has enough time to learn it, like an agency does, in my opinion. 21:28 Can't be a side project. No. Yeah, can't be a side project. No. You just don't have time for it, you know. 21:34 It's too fundamental to go to market strategy. Like, how does AI affect that? And we were just talking to someone the other day who, and it was an agency owner for lack of better terms, who very much believes Harris that we are all Consultants agency is gonna be out of a job in the next three years because 21:52 AI is gonna build the playbooks, do this, do that and I have my opinion which we can talk about in a second, but does AI affect anything that you're saying is the next two to three years goes on? 22:03 Yeah, sure. I mean, I'll take the other side of that bet. I'll bet against that for sure. Um, I think that, I mean, okay, so this is maybe a hot take or not, but like in a year from now, I think there will be fewer people in Like if you look at like the org chart of an organization, I think the number 22:20 of people in like sales revenue go to market rolls, I think that number will be lower. Um, but I think spend per person will be higher. 22:28 And so it's possible that there will be fewer agencies or that the average agency has fewer employees or something like that. 22:34 Like, sure, AI is huge. We use all of the time. I mean, I was playing around with them, oh, one, um, tattooed beauty, oh, one where it does like the deep research. 22:41 Yep. It was really awesome this weekend. I went on like a long walk and I Asked a question it was going and doing research and was building it. 22:48 It's really cool. Um, but you still have to know like the questions to ask and how to put it together. 22:54 So yeah, I mean, I don't think AI is going to fundamentally disrupt the existence of agencies, but I do think it'll change them. 22:59 They'll be smaller, span to be higher. I think the expectations will be higher. Um, I don't know. What do you guys think? 23:04 I mean, you run an agency. What do you, how do you see it affecting your business? I think the expectations are Already higher. 23:11 Um, it's why when we started, we started with where, where operators not consultants, those days are gone. I think two years ago you could be a consultant and hand someone a pretty slide deck and people were very happy to pay you tens of thousands of dollars for it. 23:22 Um, I think that's done. Um, I think AI is going to help with things like an age, uh, HubSpot agencies, for example, we're a HubSpot Gold partner as well. 23:33 Um, how do I build this really complex work for you? Shit, ChatGPT can tell me that and if you're relatively intelligent, you can follow the steps and go build your workflow and it's going to get you 90% there. 23:45 When it comes to things like how do I develop a comprehensive outbound motion? How do I get the right copy and the right systems and the right reporting? 23:53 How do I build a go-to-market motion? How do I define my ICP? ChatGPT will tell you how to build an ICP. 23:59 I don't think it tells you how to do it correctly, um, but it will. You still need someone to execute. 24:05 And I will, I also will bet against it. Our moat isn't that we have the knowledge to tell you what to do. 24:13 Our moat is that we can execute and show you how to do it, because chat GPKT can tell you what you need, but not how to do it the right way. 24:22 Yeah, and I'll go further. I think the second part of that moat is like It's going to be wrong the first time you build it. 24:30 Like you're going to have to iterate over it based on feedback from the market, feedback from internal feedback from like, uh, and, and this, this process of like, or this, this stop process like, the market is never going to, it never fails. 24:45 Like. They'll tell you whether they think your value proposition is the best or not. Like, if you believe that you have some impact on people and people are like, nope, I don't like that impact. 24:54 Guess what? You're wrong. Yeah. Like, so you got to take all that back into account and like put it back into the mix to then come up with a new ICP or new value proposition or ask the next question. 25:07 Like, when you have kids, you're like, the kids are like, the three Ys. Like, do this. Why? Because they said this why, because it, because it, and like finally you get to like the real reason on why you want someone to do something. 25:20 So like, that is in my mind where the agency world or the consulting or the operation world is going to be. 25:29 And as simple as like, we're working with a thawner right now, he's going through a funding exercise. Yes, you could go ask ChatGPT, like we were talking about CAC and we were talking about You know, LTV and a bunch of stuff. 25:42 Yes, you can go ask, ChatGPT. Like, what does that look like? But then you get to go build it in a hub spot or wherever you're going to do it. 25:49 You're going to look at like what the, uh, what the iteration actually ends up looking like. And then you're going to modify it based on. 25:57 Like, look at it. We only have four records. Like, that's not enough data points for you to give back to an investor. 26:02 Like, hmmm. Maybe we need a data set of 10 to 20. So maybe we need to open things up. And it's just, it's that critical thinking of the plus one and not the initial conversation. 26:13 Yeah. That I think won't be the value. Yeah, I agree with that. And, and I'll say, like, so we're talking about like the nuance, right? 26:18 Like, this is where, like, we type, it's where things get complicated. Um, I think it's going to like, I think some of these agencies are going to go, it's going to be like a little bit of a throwback to like the system integrate or like the earlier days where it's like, look, this is really complicated 26:30 . And like, you know, you start talking about things like, okay, what, what, what, what this matters for like maintenance and like long term. 26:37 Okay, fine. Like, let's say it works. Let's say you're sales team doubles. And then someone wants to know like, why this one random property and HubSpot keeps changing. 26:46 And you're like, well, I don't know. Let's go troubleshoot the workflow. Okay. Well, the naming convention is just called You know, untitled workflow, you know, 2021-01-01 or whatever. 26:57 You know what I mean? And so it's like, that's where I think, you know, you mean you should have a naming convention for your workflows? 27:03 Yeah. So you're going to start having like GTM tech debt basically. You know, you have people that if they don't have enough background to experience it, they haven't done this and made the mistakes enough times. 27:15 They're going to be creating tech debt for the go-to-market organization, basically, where it's like someone's going to have to come in and unwind this stuff and figure out what the heck is going on, and why did we give right access to, like, make ends up here, end, end, end, end, and clay, and then 27:29 you have, like, these race-conditioned problems where, like, these different, all these low-code things are, like, competing with each other, you know? 27:34 So, like, the complexity can really get difficult quickly, and again, like, to me, these are spaces why you have expertise. 27:42 And also, sometimes it's wrong. Like, I spent, I have spent time, just like, for no reason, just for my own, like, getting out my frustration, like, getting back at TBT and being like, this workflow action doesn't exist. 27:57 Like, stop telling me to do it. It's not real. It's not in hotspot. This is no, you're completely hallucinating this. 28:02 I, I've run across that a couple of times. So that's like, not, like, let's say you can get past all of that and let's say, like, you know, whatever. 28:08 You, you still have this problem of like, how are you designing? These systems. And then I think to your point, Dale, like, it's like, okay, but then are you bringing some unique novel idea? 28:17 And it's that, like, listening to the customer. And then it's a new company who's raising money. Fundamentally, they're going to do something new. 28:24 You're raising money because you believe something is going to change in the market in the next five years. And that's why you're raising money to go build that business. 28:31 So something that's built to find by the past is not going to be able to as effectively write that deck with you, you know, and tell you what metrics are really going to matter and stuff. 28:39 So yeah, I love AI. I use it all the time. Um, but I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think, I don't think some of this stuff is going to change or is really meaningfully going to go away. 28:52 So what does the future hold? For go to market, for outbound, for specifically top of funnel. What's the future hold? 28:58 Let's, let's just talk next six months. What, what, what, what do you say? Cause you, you, you work with so many companies who are like really top of funnel focused right now and I would argue everyone's top of funnel focused right now. 29:09 It's the number one problem we hear. Yeah. What does the future hold? How do you stand out? Yeah, I mean, I think that like, in a word, it's specialization. 29:16 Like, I mean, what we're seeing is people are really specializing in like these different channels and the best way to do it. 29:21 It's like, we're not just making phone calls anymore. We've got like, you know, multiple layers of validation and we're finding, we're calling people with a high propensity to respond. 29:29 And for those, we use a power dialer. And then for these other lists, we're using a parallel dialer, you know, to me, it's like in every single area, so you're going to get more and more specialization in order to get that. 29:38 That like Delta to get that to get that return. Um, and so I think most of the market is behind. 29:46 Um, I think that the next. I think that I think that so for people that are behind, I think they've got catching up to do, um, you know, if they're still like, what's clay? 29:56 Um, they've got some catching up to do. And then I think for the people that are ahead. I think the next six months are gonna be less interesting than the last six months because the because they're ahead they're getting bigger and bigger clients and I'm seeing this. 30:08 Companies are 1500 employees so with that are now saying all right, you know, let's set up smartly. Um, the next like six months of meetings are gonna be like with this uh CRM administrator being like, okay, so it's really important for our data hygiene that we have the territory mapped like, and, you 30:26 know, and, and whereas like they're used to just gripping and ripping. Hey, I got a list. Boom. We're sending replies are coming into Slack. 30:32 Let me know if you have any questions. Now it's going to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 30:37 We need this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, these are our requirements. So I think that's like a good thing. 30:40 It means it's more money. It's working with bigger companies that have bigger problems. But so to me, that's like, it's, it's going to be a tale of two, two levels of adoption. 30:47 The winners, Growing up, um, you know, or like having to like, not grow up as that's like condescending, but having to like slow down, I should say. 30:56 I'm condescending all the time apparently, so you're good. Don't worry about it. Winners having to slow down all the time. 31:01 Basically. And then, and then for the, for the laggards, just definitely needing to catch up and just kind of get up to speed because I think, um, like the, I mean, stuff's just going to stop working. 31:11 It's going to be like, it's going to be like pushing a rope. And so, you know, it's like, You can solve that a lot of ways. 31:17 You don't need to use our product. You don't need to use, you know, work with revenue. You're imagining whatever there's a million ways to do it, but, but it's, but it's not going to work. 31:24 Some of these things are, are going to completely stop working at some point. That's what I think. Yeah. It's, uh, it's an interesting time, man. 31:32 It's an interesting time. Um, thank you for sharing. Thank you for your knowledge. Um, I love what y'all are doing. 31:43 I've seen the product uh, be used. We're using it as some clients. Um, I'm excited to see what the future holds for you. 31:49 Let's uh, before we depart as we wrap up, let's uh, jump into some rapid fire here. Um, when you look at the go-to-market gap, so stabilization, foundation, repeatability, scalability. 32:03 What in your mind is the number one thing you need to move from stabilization to foundation. Um, Well, I have to, I'm going to, I'm going to, this is not a speed answer. 32:17 I'm going to have to find a little ignorance here. Help me understand this model a little better. Yeah, I just want to give a, I don't want to give a, I don't want to give a made-up answer. 32:23 So, so said differently, what, what needs to be fixed? So when we come into companies a lot of times, they, they don't know what's working and what's not. 32:30 And we have to come in, we have to stabilize it, right? Any company needs to be stabilized before you start rebuilding that foundation. 32:36 What is the number one thing, thing that you think needs to be fixed before you could rebuild? I think, I think people are focusing on the wrong metrics. 32:45 I think like for the most organizations that are pre, before they're ready to lay the new foundation, they're still talking about like open rates and stuff like that. 32:53 And so it's like, listen, like the dashboard, if you're on that previous model, the dashboard you're looking at would probably gonna delete like at least half of it basically. 33:01 And the numbers that you're used to looking at, like, we're gonna have to stop looking at those. I think, I think that's like the first step. 33:06 And if there's not alignment on that, then probably not gonna get anywhere. Love it. 100%. So, one of the things that we're looking at a lot is how often you should revisit those go-to-market foundations, ICP by and percent of value propositions. 33:20 How often do you think you should be revisiting those or pressure testing them, at least, to make sure you're in the right realm? 33:26 Yeah. I mean, if you look at, like, Octave by Zach Vibidor, it's a really interesting, um, software company. We know Zach well. 33:33 I spoke for them for an hour. Okay. There you go. There you go. Hopefully you were, hopefully you were nice to him. 33:37 He's a nice guy. He's, uh, always, Zach's great. Where, where, where, where apart? Okay. There you go. Okay. He's just con, Adam's just condescending to everybody, so I don't know. 33:45 Okay. Oh, everyone named him. So this was not coordinated at all, at all, but that's great to hear. So I think, you know, if you talk to like a Zach, you'd say, yeah, continuously. 33:52 We need we need to have feedback loops on this and we need to be looking at it and looking at changes in the market. 33:56 Um, you know, I think if you're not doing that, I don't know, um, defining a cadence that's sustainable for your organization, whether that's monthly or quarterly or something like that. 34:04 But it's definitely not a set it and forget it kind of thing. Uh, I know for sure that's not it. 34:09 Okay. Cool. I think quarterly is probably the right place for most people right now, but yeah. That's a lot. I mean, that's a huge change versus the deck that marketing gave. 34:19 Sales three years ago. Kind of a year ago. Yeah. Two years ago. Yeah. Three. I'm working with a client now where the deck is six and a half years old. 34:26 True story. Uh, Harris early burner night owl. Um, both unfortunately. Oh, yeah. We have young. First happy check when you wake up in the first happy check when you wake up in the morning. 34:39 Um. Slack. Yeah, Adam too. Interesting. No, my first app is Aura. Um, favorite guilty pleasure snack. We talked about Brian Johnson, so he's got this cocoa powder. 34:56 I have that in the afternoons. There's like a little hot chocolate kind of thing with the, with a blueprint cocoa powder. 35:02 Cool. Last one, uh, dream vacation destination. Right now, the one that we're talking about a lot is New Zealand. I've been, uh, Doing Lord of the Rings. 35:13 I've been telling Lord of the Rings to our four year old and she's like obsessed with it. It's our fifth time through the whole series. 35:18 And so we talk about ring story all the time. Shes to me questions about Gandalf and stuff. So that that's our I've wanted to go to New Zealand, you know, for a long time. 35:25 So that's I'm gonna say that one. Cool. Definitely on my list as well. I've heard that's a very bumpy flight. 35:31 That's a whole separate conversation. Um, over the years. Yeah, big water. Yeah, big water. Uh, listen, any flight these days, um, that Land successfully is a good day. 35:43 Um, I say that getting on an airplane first thing tomorrow morning. Harris, thank you for joining us, man. Everyone, go check out out Bound Sink. 35:50 Find Harris on social. Uh, and thanks for joining the show. Thank you guys. I really, I really, I guess here. 35:57 I really appreciate what you're doing. This is great. Thanks.

Syncing EmailBison with HubSpot and Salesforce for Agencies

Wed, 26 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this deep-dive webinar, OutboundSync founder Harris Kenny joins the EmailBison team to break down exactly how agencies and growth teams can sync outbound data to HubSpot and Salesforce CRMs. Drawing from his own experience running a HubSpot agency and building a sales engagement SaaS, Harris walks through real-world use cases, technical models, and attribution challenges. Whether you’re managing multiple clients or running a single outbound motion, this session explores how proper CRM integration helps prove ROI, avoid client churn, and unlock higher-value retainers. Bonus: see how to log every activity, track positive replies, and build dashboards that show your true impact. ## Watch ## Transcript 00:02 Okay, so effecto alright man, floors yours. Let's do this. Okay, hey everybody. Um, all right. Recording is on a nice to meet you. 00:12 My name is Harris Kenny. I'm really excited to chat. Um, big fan and user of email bison. Excited to talk today about a few different things. 00:20 Um, but you know, really the idea is we've got a lot to cover. Um, and we're going to be talking about CRM integration and why you would potentially want to integrate email bison with your CRM. 00:33 Or your customer's CRM, we're going to, especially focus on the agency workflows here. And, um, in addition to that, we're going to talk about, um, data models in general, and how the data model shifts when you're going from a sales engagement platform like EmailBison to, uh, CRM, like HubSpot or Salesforce 00:54 . And we're going to, I'm going to focus on those two, uh, those are the two that we integrate with right now. 00:59 May, may change that in the future. I think that everything we talk about that will apply, will apply to other serums that have simpler data models, um, but they have the most, uh, I think robust, most most complicated ones. 01:10 We can also touch on some even more complex things like a data warehouse product, like a snowflake or something like that as well. 01:18 Um, we talked about that briefly. That's just, that's kind of like more on the periphery. So if you want to just drop in the chat where you're calling in from, um, see a bunch of people coming in which is great and a bunch of familiar names, um, Just saw an old, an old familiar name, Lance pop-in. 01:30 Hey, Lance, how's it going? Um, and the way we're gonna do it is if you want to drop in questions as you go, as you think of them, please feel free. 01:36 And then we'll do questions towards the end, but if there's something really urgent, I might hit pause and, uh, and cover that earlier. 01:45 Um, alright, so let me just pull up my screen and, uh, we'll work through today. And Hassan, is there anything you want to mention at the, at this top here before we get going? 01:56 Uh, no, I think we're good. Okay. Alright, let me get my screen going here. Uh, present review. I'm going to share my screen. 02:21 And let's see if it's going to let me do this. Alright, can you see my screen? Yes, sir. Awesome. Okay. 02:29 Um, so we've got a deck here just to guide the conversation. So what we're going to do is we're going to start with just a thought exercise. 02:34 Um, I'm going to talk through just a brief recap of how we got here. Now, bison users are power users. 02:39 So that'll be really quick. I think everyone knows how we got here, but I will include a little kind of bonus section for bison users in particular, um, because I think that this, this users of this platform are different than most of the market. 02:51 Um, and even different than Most of the early adopters within the opt-out market. Um, so we'll talk about some things that are special for Bison there. 02:58 Um, because I do think it's different and I think we got to acknowledge that, um, in a good way. Uh, I think, you know, my experience working with Bison myself and then with our partners is that Bison users are our power users. 03:09 Um. Okay, um, and then we got, we'll talk about how to spot and Salesforce and then a bunch of Q&A. 03:16 All right. So first, I just want to ask a. Start with like a thought exercise, a prompt. If you will. 03:26 Which is, I want to just think to yourself how much of glass of water is worth. And the answer is that it depends on where you are, right? 03:40 3.50, Adam says. Well, maybe. Um, I'm going to talk about, um, the, Fuenfria spring, Daniel knows this is his stomping grounds in the Sierra to Guadarrama, Daniel knows this is his stomping grounds, but it's in Spain. 03:55 There's a mountain range in Spain, and there's fresh water there, right? So the fresh water spring in the mountains and it's pure, it's clean, it's wonderful water, but the problem is, not a lot of people live there because it's in the middle of the mountains. 04:06 And so even though it's great, where we really want that water, is we want that water in the city, where the people live. 04:13 And so in particular, this mountain spring, Could be feeding or delivering water to the city of Segovia, which is in Spain. 04:22 And so what I want you to think about in terms of this thought exercise is that, you know, the outbound platform that you're using email by sin in this case is going to be like your sales engagement platform. 04:30 So it's pure. It's wonderful doing great things, but the problem is it's only part of where we want it. We really want that data to be inside of a larger system of record. 04:39 So that we can do things like cross object reporting. We can do things like revenue attribution. We can do things like, um, Reconciling identity of leads in bison to contacts and even up to the company or account level inside of a CRM. 04:52 Because once we have that, that same thing, that same data, I sent an email to this contact, we have that same data in a different place, it's worth much, much more, because there are many more things that we can do with it. 05:04 And so, at OutboundSync , we consider that we're building like an aqueduct. Basically, aqueduct of psychobia, it's a real thing, it was in use for like 2,000 years, the Romans built it, so someone asks the last time you thought about the Roman Empire. 05:16 That would be just now. Uh, it's actually really beautiful and it's a really cool, um, historic site and, uh, just amazing engineering marvel and they, um, I've done some restoration work over the years and you can still see it. 05:26 It's really cool thing. Um, but the idea is that different things are worth different amounts to depending on where they are. 05:32 And so fundamentally our belief at OutboundSync is that we believe in these point solutions. We believe in the role of a sales engagement platform like Email Bison. 05:40 And we believe that for teams in a certain size at a certain scale, That data is going to be even more valuable if it can be in context of the rest of the go-to-market and even ongoing customer engagement activities, customer success and retention, you know, you can eventually, if you have this data 05:56 on the right place, you can track the not only the average deal size, but even the lifetime value of deals that are sourced from outbound, versus from, uh, inbound and other channels. 06:06 So fundamentally, how about data's worth more in your CRM? Now, not every company. Is using a CRM, not every company is using HubSpot or Salesforce. 06:14 Obviously there are a lot of different sales, uh, uh, teams running lots of different sales tools. Our focus is on HubSpot and Salesforce because, particularly in US and European markets, they have a lot of traction. 06:25 Um, and there's a certain point where companies just switch over to them because it just makes sense. Not only do they have salespeople that have experience using those tools or marketers, but there are also just administrators that have a familiarity with those tools and then all the like myriad of 06:39 integrations. That drive into those CRMs that companies need. Um, and so while you may say, well, my, my clients, whether you're an agency, um, or even an in-house team, you say, well, we're not using that right now. 06:51 Um, you know, fair enough. I still think that I hope that there's going to be value in this conversation today that you'll be able to apply regardless of the CRM that you're using. 06:58 But if you're using an, if you're running an agency, yeah, I'd really consider. Could you be moving up market? And finding teams that are using these more expensive platforms that will have the budget to pay for extra integration and extra revops help extra maybe data, uh, data hygiene enrichment and 07:18 other projects, especially if you're using a tool like clay. What we're finding, and I've been building this, I'm going to talk about my background a little bit, but what we're finding is that there's a lot of room up market. 07:28 And if you're on this call, especially, um, you are probably doing things that are incredibly useful, incredibly valuable. And you probably have companies that have thousands of employees that wish they were doing the types of things that you're doing, the types of campaigns that you're running if you're 07:43 using a tool like Bison. So we'll talk about that in a little bit. So just in terms of whether or not this is relevant to you, I hope that's a little bit helpful context. 07:51 Um, if you've got any thoughts on that, drop in the chat if you're running an agency, or if you're working in-house to the team, and you want me to think about ending in particular as we go, feel free to drop some comments in the chat. 08:00 I see we've got some Canadians here, welcome Canadians. We've got more Canadians weighing in. If anybody's not in Canada, let me know. 08:07 Not this anything wrong with Canada's agreat place. But if we're all Canadians, that'd be helpful to know because I can speak to more Canadian issues. 08:13 Alright, so let's review how we got here. Um, my name is Harris Kenny. More Canadians, hey Aaron. Um, my name is Harris Kenny. 08:22 I started a fractional sales consulting business in 2019. Um, we were originally a smart lead agency and we were one of the first clay experts. 08:29 I ran an outbound agency for about three and a half years and I was also running a hotspot partner agency. 08:34 So is that time that I developed OutboundSync ? And I went through a journey that I think probably a lot of people here have gone through, um, where I used a number of different tools over the years. 08:44 I started using, uh, close for sequencing, for a cold email, then Lemlist, then smart lead, and now we're using a number of tools, including, especially, bison, really proud to be have bison as part of our tech stack for the campaigns that we've run for ourselves, um, in addition to obviously our customers 09:00 and partners. Um, so I shut down my agency full time and now OutboundSync is all I do. So we're an app integration tool that takes email by some campaign data and we can sync that into HubSpot and Salesforce. 09:12 And, you know, we're all here because we know that the way the people were doing it before was sales off the not reach wasn't working. 09:18 And further, you know, for the bison folks like we're here because we also know that even some of the next generation tools that came out have their own issues, their own reliability issues, their own, um, Deliverability issues or whatever it may be, where we ended up finding email bison. 09:38 Um, and I don't want to talk about any particulars about any of the vendors. I mean, the goal here is just to talk about why we use that tool, how we use that tool, and how it can help us grow our companies. 09:47 Um, so, you know, even within this, you've got people who are familiar with domain rotation, things that are familiar, people that are familiar with, uh, warm up and know all these concepts. 09:58 And then even within that know that there's There's a better way using isolated network infrastructure and some of the other things, um, that bison supports that are really, really powerful. 10:07 Um, but this creates coordination problems for teams. Because we're seeking this delta. We want this deliverability. And so we separate out to point solutions, and then we, and then we silo our data. 10:19 I saw this because I had clients who wanted the data inside of their CRM. Right? And they were like, hey, these campaigns are great, but we want it inside. 10:26 And that's what I was writing with HubSpot Agency. So that's kind of how we got here. I started with low code, um, and I will say, Bison has incredible support for webhooks and the, uh, Bison API and documentation are also very good. 10:37 So there are probably a lot of things that OutboundSync does that you could build for yourself. Um, it's just when you kind of get to a point where it's like a very high-scale client or they want SOC 2 compliance or other things where, where, um, We find teams tend to pull us in, but there are some things 10:51 that you'll be able to take away from this conversation that you'll be able to apply whether or not you use our product. 10:56 And I think Bison makes that possible because of what they do for a developer experience perspective. We connect these systems to cover that. 11:04 All right, so let's talk about how it works with OutboundSync really quick, and then we'll jump into the data models. 11:10 So we're running channel optimized app on fundamentally we believe in point solutions. Bison is going to be the best way to get your email out. 11:17 Now, you might be using some other tools. You might be using Heyreach or social, or you may be using dialers and things like that. 11:23 Finally, I believe that there's room for point solutions to run channel optimized app on for each of these channels. That an all-in-one is going to be pretty limiting, um, in terms of how much you can get out of it. 11:35 And if you look at dialers, you know, if you combine, for example, you know, a phone burner, a parallel dialer, with phone-ready leads, or some other data provider that is going to give you a propensity to respond. 11:48 I just think you're going to get better results than if you're doing from an all-in-one platform, like an Apollo. And this is no offense to Apollo, but if you're doing one thing, I just think you tend to do it better. 11:58 And what this creates is this orchestration problem, but it allows you to be forward posture and proactive about generating pipeline. 12:06 And you can isolate issues and improve what you're doing. We route that data to the CRM. That's where we want it to live. 12:15 Generally, our customers or agencies, their clients, they want their sales reps living in the CRM, they want to be able to attribute data there, they want to be able to see activities there, and sometimes they have really specific security requirements. 12:26 The things that they want to do in those systems, again, are attributing revenue, sticking activities, and blocking outreach. Blocking outreach should be, you know, dynamic block lists, taking advantage of Bison's API that allows you to add contacts or domains to the block list, uh, dynamically. 12:41 So I'm gonna take a quick break there. I think that's a little bit of context about how we think about the problem where we came from, how we started building for this, how we found Bison, um, and and then we're gonna jump into the HubSpot and Salesforce data models. 12:52 Now, this is a place where I want to give people a chance to jump in with questions as we go, because this is just like a single slide and we're just gonna kind of talk through a lot here and how these are different. 13:01 Um, there's one question that Adam asked, I'm just gonna get to it now, which is how do you even begin to get a client to switch from sales loft? 13:08 Or maybe one of these traditional sequencers like an outreach or something like that. It's a really good question. And I would say you don't necessarily have to get them to switch. 13:21 So consider what we're doing here. We're talking about scaled outbound. What we're finding, especially in like mid-market organizations that have anywhere from 250 to 1500 employees, is that they're running multiple sequencers. 13:37 I think the future is multiple sequencers and actually that's kind of the present too, although I think people don't necessarily think of it that way. 13:46 An end-to-end platform, like a sales loft or an outreach or an Apollo, they're going to be really well developed for a single rep in a single seat and most of the tools that they're using are also charging per seat. 14:02 They have a single sales loft license. They have a single Salesforce license. They have a single zoom info license, right? 14:07 And that rep is maybe responsible for an end end. You know, they're doing a little bit of their own prospecting. 14:11 They're doing a little bit of demos. They're doing a little bit of closing or maybe it's an AE and they're getting a lot handed to them, but they're expected to maybe work their target accounts or their book of business. 14:21 The way that we're seeing a lot of people using tools like bison is kind of above that workflow in the funnel. 14:30 Uh, it's, it's more on almost undermarketing, um, but it's essentially an SDR function. And so, what we have is like, we've got, we're seeing people use both. 14:39 They're using a tool like Bison to generate leads, and then in parallel, they may have some members of their team that are still using the road tool. 14:48 I mean, you have to remember that those, the traditional, or maybe, maybe like, let's just say conventional SaaS model over the last five years. 14:54 It's annual contracts, um, Everything is running through the primary domain. You, I have, I think, not always, but often a very low level of sophistication of understanding around deliverability and data quality. 15:05 You know, they're probably having a lot of balances. They probably don't even begin to understand the issues that they're having. 15:10 And so what we're finding is that people don't, you don't necessarily have to convince everyone within an org that they have to change everything right away. 15:19 We're finding a land and expand motion attending to work really well. So there's like a certain product. Um, where they have, they want to have a go-to-market motion for a new product or a new territory, and it's a land and expand. 15:31 They pick a certain part within the org and an agency or, you know, maybe they build it internally and hire a go-to-market engineer, a GTM engineer, and they just add just a crazy amount of value. 15:42 And then what happens is that they're giving more responsibility over time. And incrementally over time, companies see, huh? Now, maybe we don't eliminate sales loft, but maybe we reduce the number of seats that we have there. 15:54 And we actually maybe we can use the term that people use for like a sales option like that is a system of action, right? 16:00 So it's the tab that's open for the rep that is helping orchestrate the reps actions for much of their day. 16:07 Who do I call next? Who do I email next? If you're using a tool like bison, you don't necessarily have to have that. 16:13 And you can also use automation more heavily to tell you what to do next. And you can even use HubSpot or Salesforce as your system of action and system of record. 16:25 So I would say like it depends on the organization, but it's not always an either or. Um, and for the bigger organizations, it's proof, prove value and then expand and then show, hey, we can handle this use case too. 16:36 So we have an agency who was working with, um, I don't, I don't want to say they're client, but I'll just tell you 1500 employee series D company, uh, really mature, go to market organization. 16:47 And they initially brought in app on sync because they wanted it. Be able to get activities available to their sales reps. 16:53 And so what this team was doing was they were working cold, cold leads. And they were performing so well that the internal team said, Hey, like, I think we might be able to start passing you some inbound leads that we're getting to. 17:10 Would you be willing to work those? Would you take some of these white paper signups or inbound thought leadership or webinar signups or gated content signups and maybe run those through the same funnel? 17:20 Um, and they just said, yeah, sure. And they were able to expand, um, their level of, um, their scope of responsibility within the work. 17:31 Um, another one that's really interesting was, um, this is a smaller company. They've got probably 150 employees, but they've got like 10s of thousands of contacts in HubSpot and their stale. 17:42 And they asked the agency to work some of those stale contacts. So, of course, the agency first has to validate the email addresses because some of them are really old, so that they flush out some of the old ones, but that's helpful for the company. 17:56 And that's a billable service, by the way. You could say, look, these emails are bouncing, you should take them out of HubSpot, and they could potentially even reduce their number of marketing contacts inside of HubSpot, in this case, this company's using HubSpot. 18:06 Um, but then they converted quite a few of them because they switched to signal-based prospecting. So they looked at, hey, there's a job change here, or this company level event occurred, I'm gonna go reach out to the contacts within that org. 18:19 And there were contacts, we looked at them individually, there were contacts that sales rep had been trying to get in touch with for months and months that had given up, it had been six to nine months since there was a touch, and all of a sudden that up on agency was able to get a conversion. 18:32 Um, because they had the right message at the right time. And so, Anyway, there's a lot of different ways to think about it. 18:39 I think it's a really, really good question, um, a little bit of a meandering response, but hopefully helpful as we think about going from this, like, contemporary model that most companies are into this new model that we're talking about today, that people like us that we're having conversations like 18:51 this today are on, um, which is really different. Um, and frankly, like if you're on this call, you are ahead of most of the market. 18:59 The modal sales leader right now is asking themselves, like, hmm, are we lining it spam? I wonder if we're having deliverability issues. 19:10 I keep seeing that on social, you know, whereas the typical person in this org knew that years ago has iterated through multiple tools and is now running like a pretty optimized stack. 19:21 We have a concept that I mentioned at the end called the outbound maturity curve, um, it's on our site as well, but I think that like the people here are in like a level four, level five of that app on maturity curve, whereas I think a lot of orgs are at like a level two or three, um, just by just by 19:35 nature being here, it says enough about you. Um, all right. There's some really good stuff in the chat here and really, really good advice around how you go from billing up more and getting your logo. 19:47 So jump into the chat. If you're not seeing that and really recommend, um, really recommend looking at some of that conversation in there. 19:54 It's really, really useful. Um, thanks for folks that are weighing in there. Um, and I can tell you that I recognize a few of these names like this is good advice there. 20:01 It's not just random chat. All right. So. Let's, let's go into HubSpot and Salesforce specifically. We'll talk about this for maybe five, five minutes or so, and then we'll just jump into a bunch of Q and A. 20:16 So what I want to encourage you to think about is a lot of times when we think about Outbound, we're focused on individual contacts. 20:25 And those contacts are often described as leads. Um, but leads mean something very specific. And so we're gonna just kind of get particular, and we're gonna work through the types of objects in its typical CRM, the types of activities, and then ways to potentially automate within those CRMs. 20:43 We're just gonna set this as scaffolding for the conversation, and then I think we're gonna have time for like, you know, at least 20 minutes, if not close to 30 minutes of Q&A. 20:53 So I'm gonna start on the CRM side. So we have the company, object in HubSpot, or the account, Object in Salesforce. 21:02 Now in it, in a, in a very vanilla straight forward situation, you've got a single company that has contacts working for it. 21:08 But of course, it's not always that simple. You can have nested companies where you have parent company and then you have, uh, child companies beneath that beneath that. 21:17 So like, they could be franchises or something like that or divisions that are operating underneath a holding company or something like that. 21:23 So keep in mind that even as something as simple as like, who do you work for? It's not so always so straightforward. 21:33 Um, those contacts, in HubSpot, the relationship between a contact and a company is called an association. But in Salesforce, the term is like it's related to, so the contact is related to a certain account. 21:48 The lead object is a very specific thing. In Salesforce, um, a lead is basically something that comes in and needs to be evaluated as Is this gonna- is this gonna- is this- is there gonna be a conversion event where this lead becomes a contact associated with an account? 22:07 Or not? And Jenn Iguarta to go nimbly, she had a really good, kind of funny video about this on social the other day. 22:16 Um, if you don't follow her, she talks about Clay and- it's a- it's a funny, like, kind of office space inspired, um, series if you're- if you're familiar with the movie office space. 22:27 Um. But HubSpot does it very differently. For HubSpot, I lead, it's like, it's like a pre-deal. It's like a mini-deal before something becomes a deal. 22:38 So, a lead can be associated with a contact or a company. And it's event-based, and then there's a conversion event, and when that lead converts into a deal, it becomes qualified, it becomes a deal. 22:50 But a contact is like a static thing. So, I'm a person, I work for a company, um, maybe I get a promotion. 22:56 A new lead could be created when I get my promotion, and then I, and then you attempt to contact them and then eventually you attempt to have a conversion event. 23:03 So I think that when you look at like, excuse me, how do you model the email bison data over to a HubSpot or Salesforce, I think you're going to potentially think about creating some automation to create new leads, or to convert right to a lead when a reply comes in and it's marked as interested or positive 23:23 . Right. So bison has a dedicated webhook for positive replies. That's what we use at OutboundSync to indicate that disposition that it became a positive event. 23:31 And then you're going to have just like general replies that come in across the board, where they could be like out of office or, or just neutral or negative or whatever. 23:39 Um, and so that positive event that occurs is when I think you look at potentially creating a lead specifically, and this is something it needs to be followed. 23:47 Now I think in, in smaller, Uh, less mature organizations, people tend to just create deals automatically for these things. Um, and, and your customer may want that and, and that's fine. 23:58 It's their data model. It's their organization. You can only support them however they think about it. Uh, but what I would really encourage you to think about is, can you help your customer be more sophisticated about how they do it? 24:10 And can you help them run a better motion? Because the better they're handling and managing these, Let's just I don't want to use word lead because you know, it's like it's like a kind of a loaded it's a specific thing but These new opportunities is the same way all of these words now have meaning so 24:24 it's difficult to talk about without getting caught in the weeds But anyway, let's just say the better way the you know, you're generating you're generating new logos forthem and the better they handle them and respond to them and follow up with them and the better systems they can build to manage that 24:34 pipeline the more successful you're gonna be Just throwing a lead over the wall. Hey got a positive reply here it is You can do it, but I can just tell you I've seen it happen. 24:45 I've seen clients get frustrated and it happened to me when I was running agency and projects early, even though the campaigns are working. 24:56 And I want to really stress why companies and accounts are important because you can track conversion that's outbound influence but not directly straight line from outbound and you can totally change the nature of the conversation with your customer. 25:12 We have a case study with a company called OpenSend. They had generated, or they thought they generated through their agency, OutboundBuddy, 17 meetings in a single month. 25:25 But when they went through and they looked at the associated companies and they looked at the conversion events, they discovered that actually they had booked 52 meetings in one month, which exceeded their goal of 50 by two. 25:34 When they looked at a multi-touch, like full funnel approach, understory has talked about this as well. Alex fine has posted some great videos about because they run a paid ads practice. 25:46 They are also, they want to be able to attribute conversion across other channels direct. They work with a lot of SaaS companies, so they have a lot of direct signups. 25:52 They also have paid ads running. And they found, and in general, we're finding like two to three X pipeline lift that outbound teams are not getting credit for. 26:01 So if you generate, like in the case of OpenSend, 17 meetings, but it was actually 52 that the outbound effort can be that there was a touch associated with outbound. 26:10 And when we drill down specifically, and we ask, the understory has a video, he asked Porsche, who was, So, understory's an agency, they were running campaigns for one of their clients, one of their clients got an inbound lead from Porsche, and they looked at the company record, and they could see, oh 26:26 , understory emailed them yesterday, they converted today, asked the people at Porsche, how'd you find us? I said, oh, you know, you emailed somebody from our team internally. 26:35 They passed it to me on, you know, internal chat, and then I just came in. I just went to your site directly and signed up and ever applied. 26:41 And like, those are the kind of wins that people are missing, and they're not getting credit for. And that's causing churned. 26:47 And it's also lowering retainers for agencies, or for in-house teams. It's resulting in people getting fired because they're saying, look, this is a cool idea. 26:55 We wanted to give it a shot, but it's not working. And so sales works, in my opinion, you know, they don't have The ability to show, to tell stories with data as effectively as marketing teams quite yet. 27:06 And so our goal with OutboundSync is not to try to create something in the middle, a new tool. No, we just want to get it into the existing tools. 27:13 We don't have a reporting infrastructure in our product. If you want to know how your sending is going, check Bison. 27:18 If you want to know how the conversion happened out of the effect, check the CRM. That, that's our sort of core philosophy. 27:24 It's not trying to rebuild all these things that have already been built. And by getting it in that same system, getting it in HubSpot or Salesforce on par. 27:33 You can be in those same dashboards that the other channels are in. And you can show leads that came from outbound, and you can put it on a chart next to leads that came from paid ads. 27:45 Alright, let's let's throw down a little bit more specifically talk about activities and the types of activities. So I want to first, I'm going to go a little bit out of order here. 27:52 I just want to talk about email activities because that's really easy. Emails are emails, right? You can log them as emails using API, which we do. 28:00 And then you can roll up activity level reporting on that. Where it gets a little tricky with Salesforce is that the email object can be used and we support that. 28:09 But actually a lot of companies like to use the task object and they'll log emails as tasks. Um, and the reason why is that the task object in Salesforce is built out more so it's easier to do reporting and automation. 28:20 Often tasks. HubSpot has something different called timeline events and timeline events. I'll allow you to trigger workflows and they can be used for lists and reports as well inside of HubSpot. 28:32 Pretty powerful. And so if you want to be able to trigger real-time routing, uh, creating call tasks, passing things off, you know, to other tools, generating enrichment, for example, going back to clay and getting phone numbers or things like that, that would be where timeline events can come in handy 28:49 . Um, you can also just use the built in automation tools specifically in HubSpot. It's called workflows in Salesforce called flows. 28:57 But make Zapier and n8n a really powerful automation tools as well to get some of this stuff going. Um, and so I think that once you get it into HubSpot or Salesforce, there's a lot of other things that you can pull and push from that. 29:09 You maybe create your own connected account, a connected app, excuse me, to have your own dedicated access to data and things like that. 29:14 We could talk about that more as we go. So we're just wrapping up here. Um, I just want to touch on this concept called the Outbound Maturity Curve. 29:21 I've got a link to it here on our site. But if you just Google Uh, or whatever search engine you use, Outbound maturity curve, it should come up. 29:30 Um, it's basically levels of app on maturity. And so we talk about how can we convince an organization to move from a current process that's not working to a more mature one. 29:42 We developed this, I developed this after basically almost four years of doing this work and seeing that there's levels of, of, of execution that organizations are capable of. 29:54 Depending on where they are in this chart, and, and you can have a conversation with them, and feel free to use this, um, take a screenshot, copy it, you know, feel free to give us credit, it'd be great if you gave us a little credit, but whatever. 30:05 And just ask them, like, look, how important is it for you for outbound to be proactive? Using personalization, using automation, having something that's continuously improving. 30:15 I'm not going to talk through all the details on this because it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a larger thing, it's a larger topic. 30:20 And, and, and you know, we all, I want to have time for questions. But we can come back to it if anyone's interested in talking about this a little bit more. 30:26 Um, but I've found it to be a really, really useful, um, kind of heuristic or, or mental model that has been, um, it's improved our quality of conversations with customers. 30:36 Um, and it gets us, uh, it gets us out of the weeds of Like, what they're doing day-to-day now, and it just asks us bigger picture, like, where do you want your org to be when it comes to go to market? 30:46 Um, so yeah, let's just, let's just stop there. Um, open this up to Q&A. There's been some more in the chat, so I'm just going to hop in here and see if there's anything else I want to start off with. 30:55 Um, and if anybody else has anything in the meantime, I don't know, um, Hassan, if you're like, um, if you want to share the screen, To pull people up or if we just want to have people drop in the chat, all good. 31:08 Um, but yeah, we'd love to take some questions and just see what people think and see what I got wrong, see what we're missing. 31:14 All right, I've not seen any moops. I've jumped around here by accident. Um, I've not seen anybody on muting or talking it, so I'm just gonna jump right into the chat. 31:31 Um, oh yeah, totally. Show how the hotspot and Salesforce dashboards look like and how the data can look in the CRM. 31:35 Absolutely. Let me pull up my tab here. Let me pull up a tab that shows this. Great question. All right. 31:43 I'm going to pull up HubSpot because we have some prebuilt dashboards for HubSpot specifically. And so this will help me maybe help make it a little bit. 31:50 I didn't want to, I didn't want to do this because I didn't want it to feel like a product demo. 31:53 Um, but I mean, I'm happy to show it. Um, but, but I just, I definitely just didn't want this to feel like a, like a pitch demo thing at all. 32:00 Um, so let's just talk about the data model really quick. I'll zoom in. This is just a test account. Um, so here we have an individual contact. 32:11 Within individual activities linked to it and something that we're finding that's pretty cool is that because we're doing this getting this data logged in the way that HubSpot and Salesforce wanted to be what we're finding is that it's forward compatible so HubSpot is rolling out more and more of this 32:25 AI inside of the platform and so now what's happening is um Breeze is starting to summarize some notes from these contact objects, which is pretty cool Um, so we have the activities logged here and then we have these timeline events logged here. 32:43 This is those timeline events that I mentioned before that can trigger event that can trigger workflows. And then once you do that, once you get that data, it can start to stack up and you can have roll up reporting. 32:54 And so what we're doing is we're recreating that activity from bison. So we're not doing like a high level poll of asking bison, like how many emails were sent last month, 10? 33:03 Okay, in this dashboard, we're going to show the number 10. Instead, We're taking like 10 emails, you know, and then we're logging literally 10 emails or in this case, um, to show you like to use the exact numbers on the screen. 33:16 So there's not like this cognitive dissonance. So it's like, how many emails were sent in October? Seven. So we have seven individual email activities that are logged here, right? 33:25 And then one in December. Um, and you can break out the reporting by campaign. And this is how you can start to get that, um, attribution. 33:35 Of revenue by campaign. And number of lead generated average, average deal size, things like that. Um, in a separate, I'm going to pull up Salesforce in a separate tab here. 33:46 Um, excuse me one sec to do that. And I'll show you what the contact object looks on Salesforce. We don't have prebuilt reporting for Salesforce yet. 33:54 We're working on it. Um, this prebuilt reporting is pretty unusual for, uh, First up for like integration products, they don't typically provide this. 34:04 We're doing this through a Chrome extension, um, so that you can actually have pre-built native reports in HubSpot that are editable inside of HubSpot. 34:12 Like these are not iframes, embedded iframes. These are actually HubSpot reports, so they can be modified based on the requirements. 34:18 And so we're working on building something similar to this for Salesforce. Um, but for now, I'm going to show you like, for example, the tasks. 34:28 Um, and just know that we're a cross-platform product, so we support several tools. Um, our focus today, of course, is on email bison. 34:36 And there's one email bison feature in particular, I want to emphasize, we talked earlier about, um, the, the positive reply. 34:46 Well, okay, that's like a specific event. Um, there's another one in bison that we support that I think is really, really powerful, uh, that is, that is uncommon for the market. 34:56 Which is that manual email, webbook. So any reply or send email that you do from the bison inbox, we are able to capture that and adjust that and then log that in the CRM. 35:09 So this allows you to have much better reporting around things like, um, reply time. A lot of, it sounds like digital platforms don't support this. 35:20 And so it much harder to figure out your, um, your time to, um, Uh, your speed to lead. Excuse me. 35:30 Um, okay, let's see. Fall question. Looking at Salesforce is like looking at dwarf fortress for me. I don't totally, totally wreck, uh, understand the metaphor. 35:43 Hopefully it's nothing inappropriate. I do like dwarves. I do like Lord of the Rings. Um, we just got to, I do the, I tell. 35:50 My four year old Lord of the Rings at night. We call it ring story and we just got through a pretty big part of The Helm's deep battle All right, so let's see good question Gabriel is pricing so Generally up on sink we charge per connected account. 36:09 That's the value metric for if you know if you have a CRM We charge to connect that if you're an agency contact me. 36:14 We have different pricing for agencies And we basically offer more features for less because agencies take on a lot of work. 36:23 And, uh, and I've been there like I've run it myself. I know I know how much work agencies are doing and typically agencies clients are also making a significant investment in their services. 36:32 Um, and so, you know, so let me know if you're doing that. Um, oh, okay. Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay. 36:39 So Adam's okay. What Adam was talking about was the UI. So the funny thing is that what you're looking at here, this is actually Salesforce Lightning. 36:44 So this is actually the new Uh, I think they have, I think they have like an even, uh, shinier version of this that I've seen some of our users are using that like cleans it up even more. 36:54 But yeah, um, Salesforce is a really powerful system, but the UI, uh, it leaves, uh, leaves some wanting. Um, so that makes that explains the dwarves for reference. 37:07 I totally agree. Um, Yeah, so, so contact me on the pricing side. We're also working on some, uh, a different tier, like a, uh, a new starter level level tier that's like a much lower volume tier for teams that are getting started. 37:18 That would be a lower price point. So, um, yeah, just give me a holler. If you're interested in that, we can talk through that. 37:24 Um, and it looks like, uh, let's see. I'm gonna, I'm just answering, uh, Gabriel's questions here. Yeah. And so. There are definitely so wait now basically the question is like hey, we're using another like an iPaaS solution that has prebuilt integration right for CRM's and I think it's possible that 37:50 if you're using an I pass it may work it may work well enough for you You may not need to use something like an outbound sync So I would say like, you know, let's get on a call and we can talk about it. 38:01 Um, generally we just go deeper when we have a custom app inside of how to spot that's able to trigger a lot of different things, um, but it's not for everybody, right? 38:08 Um, so, so let me know, um, let me know and we can talk about that some more. Um, it's a good question. 38:15 Okay, so if I'm an agency, my potential client is using HubSpotor Salesforce, what's the process to get this set up? 38:20 Um, okay, so because we're using webhooks really heavily, we can have data syncing from email bison, um, in under an hour. 38:27 And in real time. And then we have those prebuilt in HubSpot. We have prebuilt workflows and prebuilt reports ahead of time. 38:34 And that you can install these from a single package. So for example, um, you know, this is a reply routing workflow. 38:41 And there's another question about this in a second. So I'll tie it in. If every time I get a reply, I log that reply in HubSpot. 38:47 I have the sent email logged in HubSpot. And then I get that positive Uh, disposition status update in bison. So now what do I want to do now that I know that it's positive or interested? 38:57 Um, well, what I want to do because we're filtering for that. What I want to do is potentially like move the lifecycle stage to mql or sql. 39:03 I can potentially create a new lead. Um, so we, we, we save you a lot of time getting this setup with these prebuilt packages. 39:09 Um, and I appreciate the, appreciate the comment that our dashboard seems more robust. Yeah, I mean, so Gabriel just to answer that, I mean, This is all we do. 39:21 Um, we just try to get this data in HubSpot and Salesforce, right? I mean, that, that's our focus. Um, I think that Bison's a really good partnership for us because Bison team is just obsessed with landing in the inbox and our job is then getting it into the CRM. 39:33 So it, it makes for, um, multiple pieces in the stack, but I think if each one is really built for each job, it can work together really, really well. 39:41 Um, once I passed off a lead, how can I avoid the issue that I, my buddy ran into where leads weren't being attributed? 39:47 How did they do that for open-send? e.g., how can I avoid client-charm because I think it's not working, but it actually is. 39:53 Um, so, you know, I mean, I think that- I think the most important thing is that when you talk about an internal team, so in the case of, you know, this- this client, they have a revops- excuse me- they have a revops admin, right? 40:05 They have a HubSpot admin, and they have internal teams. So the most important thing is that you have to get your data where your clients are looking. 40:16 So if you're bison dashboard is just lights out just perfect and nobody's And in the internal VP of sales isn't logging into bison because that's like not part of their workflow. 40:28 It's not how they do their day Then they are gonna have no idea how bison is doing, right? So the key with this report Excuse me. 40:36 I apologize. I'm just getting over a cough and I've been I'm talking a lot some getting a little tired I'm gonna take a quick sip of water and I'm gonna answer this question So the cool thing about this dashboard is that it is a single unified dashboard, but you can break out one of these reports, and 40:53 you can move it, you can make a clone of it, and you can put it into the like GTM dashboard. 40:58 Or like the overall sales dashboard. And they may have a single unified dashboard like I have for our organization that shows like our onboarding on one page. 41:06 And so there's our site traffic on one page. And so there's how many new leads we've created, pipeline, um, deal value, everything in one place. 41:12 And so that might that home dashboard is what I check. So I would say the best thing you can do to avoid that churn where you're creating value and it's being missed is getting that data in the place where they're going to check. 41:22 Now you can supplement that with additional things. Um, Potentially, you may even request a seat to your HubSpot account. Um, even a view only so they're not getting billed for it so that you can go in yourself and check that. 41:33 Um, we're working on potentially building that out even more. We've gotten some really good feedback from Taylor Haren at sales automation systems about some ways that we can support that and make that even easier to attribute, um, and get credit. 41:46 Um, but, but I guess like the number one, the first thing you have to, um, Decide is whether or not you want to own that problem or not. 41:55 Do you consider that as part of your- within your scope or not? Um, an area where we have not found success is, uh, payper lead. 42:04 Because for paper lead agencies, they've developed a sufficient process, their clients, they just want to be able to know right away, this is the lead I got, and if it's not this, I don't want to pay you for it. 42:13 Now, I've tried making the argument that like, well, you should get like some sort of lesser credit for something that converts through some other channel, but You know, I think for the paper leave folks, they figure it out, and it's very transactional, and I don't mean that in a bad way, or in like 42:27 a derisive way, or anything negative at all, but it just is a little more transactional, and so it works. But I do find on the retainer model, um, this conversation is more important to have. 42:36 It gives you an opportunity to move into a potentially different workstreams too, where you're owning data, you're owning automation, um, and you're helping them be a little more strategic about how they do go to market, but you're also opening yourself up to having some more problems. 42:52 And now, there's some really, really good conversation on this. Um, I'm gonna jump into the chat. Give me one second just to read here while I take a sip of water. 43:02 We'll be using clay as a sort of truth for clients. Um, yeah, so clay is a great solution for this. 43:11 Um, and if you, and if you need to own it internally, like, that's a really good way to do it. 43:14 And I don't think there's any problem with that at all. Um, I use clay. We love clay. Um, I would say the, the Venn diagram of OutboundSync users and clay users is probably close to a circle, which is to say that like almost every single one of our users also uses clay. 43:30 And I suspect it probably similar for bison as well, although I don't want to speak out of turn there. Um, that there are definitely models you can use to build for that. 43:39 There are some limitations in clay. Um, that I just want to call out just so you know, um, like, of course, your customer is not going to be in that clay table by default. 43:47 It's not going to be part of their workflow necessarily. And there's limits to the number of columns, the number of rows. 43:53 So just, you know, there are some, some drawbacks, um, but in general, super powerful. And if you, if you, um, there are definitely some versions of what we're talking about today that you can build with clay and I would 100% encourage you to do that. 44:05 Um, definitely. Um, I think in a lot of ways, if you look at how we're thinking about this problem, you know, it's not, it's not rocket surgery, right? 44:13 What we're doing, we're just trying to be consistent, reliable. And I think that there's a lot of ways to do it that don't require like our level of solution, right? 44:20 Um, we're taking like that whole haystack, and we're pushing it into the CRM and allowing you to like pull the needles out. 44:26 Now, we do have a category based filter feature that allows you to only sink interested leads. That makes a lot of the stuff we talked about today a little bit harder, but It's definitely an option. 44:35 Um, and I think that I think that with with clay, you can do a lot. And if it's working for you, keep doing it. 44:40 If you're, I mean, my core point in this whole talk, like we talked about, like we started at the beginning with the water idea is that data is more valuable, depending on more or less valuable, depending on where it is. 44:50 And if, if flowing that data into clay allows you to create more value for your clients, you should totally do that. 44:56 Um, and you're doing more than most people by doing that, right? So I would say like, yeah. Um, I've got a crazy story here. 45:05 Several clients have manually gone in and audited their opportunities in a CRM. They saw that the AE wasn't properly marking, um, this agency has a lead source. 45:15 By doing this, turn the engagement around and was able to go from charging $4,000 a month to $40,000 a month. 45:21 When utilized correctly, this tool can be powerful. It's also a lot easier than auditing and starting clients here. Yeah, I mean, so, you know, let's not let's not be naive here, right? 45:33 We want to assume that our clients always, if we're running agency that our clients always have our best interests in mind. 45:38 Or let's just say if we're a salesperson, we want to assume that our org has our best interests in mind, that they want to give us a commission. 45:44 Um, but of course, we know that there's not always the case. Um, and so sometimes having an external third party system storing and logging that, whether it's OutboundSync or clay or something else, there can be a lot of utility. 45:56 In something like that, uh, because those things happen. These stories are real. I mean, Gabriel just shared a real example of something that experience he's had that looks like. 46:03 I mean, you talk about that change in that retainer. I mean, that changes your life and changes your company, um, being able to capture that kind of value. 46:10 But if you're a salesperson, you know, uh, if you're running this process internally and you're seeing that, you know, another department like marketing or whatever is taking credit and maybe you're getting paid differently. 46:20 Um, you know, that's a thing. It's a real thing. Um, You know, he's talking about an example of a $750,000 deal. 46:28 They didn't get attributed back to them. Um, so yeah, this is real stuff. And it may mean it can be, um, you know, it can be serious. 46:37 The consequences can be serious. Um, okay. One additional question I have is about data-driven attribution. First touch, last touch, AI-driven, it goes deep in the campaign level. 46:45 For example, words use CTA. Yeah. So, I mean, this is a good one and this is, I think, you know, the broad question is like, how do we think about attribution for outbound? 46:53 I would say we're early here, from our perspective. I think we're beginning to really scratch the surface. First touch is easy, right? 47:01 This was a contact that was found, through outbound, contact through outbound, converted through outbound, that's that top level, that's the one where you get the most credit, outbound gets the most credit. 47:10 Um, last touch, like what's the last touch point before a conversion happened? That's also relatively easier. But this in the middle, that multi-touch, or, um, Where are you about, like, multiple touch points and how do you allocate it? 47:24 It can get a little complicated. Um, and there's not really necessarily straightforward answer on that. Um, our goal is to push as much over. 47:33 Um, and I think, frankly, like, most organizations, the fact that, I mean, the way, I mean, you could just tell from the questions and the way that, that the work that Gabriel's been doing, like, it's, um, It's ahead of most of the market. 47:47 And so if you're asking about this, if you're on this webinar, you're wondering why these things just know that you're ahead of most people, interesting general, um, and this is kind of an evolving art and science. 47:55 And I don't have a really straightforward answer. I do think that AI presents an interesting way to potentially answer that. 48:01 I mean, at a basic level, you could just look at an activity blend of like, what are all the activities? 48:06 Excuse me. On the contact or on the company or on the account prior to a conversion event. Um, this is where we start to get out of my area of expertise just to be Just to be totally honest with you. 48:17 Um, but yeah. Um, yeah. In another comment here, yeah, it sells people consume our leads, but they love to blame me because I could have to pay the bills so we need these dashboards to demonstrate value. 48:29 Yeah, I think that's like the most important thing, right? Is that for, for, for technical reasons, you can have an incredible stack and you can be using email by using clay, you'd be landing in the inbox, you can do all these things right. 48:39 But you have to have the people in the organization. First of all, see the results. And second of all, they need to see the results. 48:45 And the question is like compared to what, right? Like, what's my next best alternative? So our job is not to be always universally the best ever, right? 48:58 It's just like we need to be better than the next thing, right? What was happening before we implemented this app motion? 49:05 How are they doing? How are the sequences doing before? How did that, uh, you know, half a million dollars that we just spent on a trade show? 49:13 How'd that go? Is that one performing better or worse than that on a, on a, on a, um, program ROI perspective, right? 49:23 So I think that that's, that's important to think about. Um, can you share some stories about your best clients are doing the ones with six figure retainers? 49:33 Yeah, definitely. And Gabriel, happy to follow up after I'll make a note to do that. Thanks for stopping by. Really appreciate your time. 49:38 Um, and yeah, folks, we do have a couple minutes left here. So, um, if you have any questions, um, please make sure to drop them in so we can cover it. 49:43 Okay, um, I'm going to talk about this, uh, growing the agency perspective because I think it's a really important question. 49:48 Um, so I think the biggest thing is systems. So the, the, the first area where I've seen agencies are able to answer the established credibility is that they can get infrastructure set up quickly. 50:02 So like, for example, we're a happy customer of cheap inboxes and, and we work with Ben and his team to get that synced up with Bison. 50:09 That's a great way to get inboxes spun up quickly. You can leverage Bison's warm-up to get that going too. And then because you're using isolated infrastructure, um, I think that also changes a little bit of the math in terms of how quickly you can be sending, um, versus some of the tools out there. 50:25 So can I get infrastructure up quickly? Um, I think the next thing is how quickly can I ingest feedback from the customer into an onboarding process so I can develop a copy that's good for them? 50:34 And I think that's a combination of bringing offers to the table and ideas for offers to the table and then, and then Adapting it for the client, and I think there's a lot of room to use AI there for sure. 50:44 Um, and I think, I think a third one where people tend to fall short is just like inconsistency. Campaigns not getting out on time or campaigns getting stuck. 50:52 And that's a process question. Um, the people who I find are able to scale agencies to the six figures in monthly revenue, um, they are able to build a level within the organization and execution level within the organization below the founder. 51:04 That is the universally consistent variable. Or factor. Is the founder isn't doing everything. You just, you can't get, I mean, maybe, but I think it's very hard. 51:16 I have not seen any agency get to six figures in monthly retainers without having at least one layer below the founder who's able to execute really get stuff done. 51:31 Uh, and handle some of those things we were talking about. I was talking about earlier about onboarding and everything. Um, ultimately results, right? 51:37 I mean, retention is key. So if you can get results, you're going to retain those clients. And I think that's where some of the conversation we had earlier, um, around attribution helps. 51:46 Um, so I think for yourself, you have to build the system, run the system, and then hire people to execute on parts of that system. 51:53 Slowly and pull yourself up out of that so you could focus on delivery and then, and then, and then results across across the team. 52:01 How can we charge more? Great question. Um, I mean, It's a complicated question. I think if you're in the services industry, which, you know, if you're running an agency, you are the legend that I would just encourage you to look at. 52:18 It's a guy named Alan Weiss. This makes me feel, like, very old. But in 2019, when I decided to go out of my own, I had had just enough of various bosses with Barnes and Noble, which is a bookstore. 52:33 And I purchased a book, which is like an ebook, but it's actually on paper. And I bought an Alan Weiss book. 52:40 And he, I think, is the absolute king on this. I'm not gonna, Some of the things we talked about, like our specific to Outbound, but just in general, I would really, really encourage you to check out. 52:50 Um, thank you for stopping by. McCune, hopefully I'm saying that name correctly. Appreciate your time. Really encourage you to check out Alan Weiss. 52:57 He's the absolute king on this stuff. Um, Yeah. He's really, really good. But yeah, people have to be confident they're going to get results. 53:04 And if they're confident, you can charge more, you can increase the retainers, you can add other offerings, you can add CRM enrichment and hygiene and you can add sales enablement, you can add rev-up services, um, you can add other planks of services like paid ads, um, there's a lot of tactical stuff 53:18 . But yeah, check out Alan Weiss for starters on building and scaling a services business and think about pricing, value-based pricing, um, yeah. 53:29 Great questions. Well, I just, this has been a total privilege. I really appreciate everyone's time. Just a ton of respect for this community and, um, yeah. 53:38 Oh, appreciate the comment out of me. I'll sit you paying after. Um, I really have a ton of respect for this community and what's being built here. 53:43 So thanks so much for taking time to chat. Um, and, uh, yeah, happy to be in touch. Please don't hesitate to reach out. 53:49 You can find me on social. Um, just, uh, I'll put my profile here. Um, let's see. Uh, please feel free to send me a connection request. 54:00 We'd love to chat with anybody. And, uh, otherwise, I'll see you. And I'm personally active in the email bison Slack and WhatsApp groups. 54:05 So I'll see you there. Great, man. Thank you so much for your time. This was extremely useful. Lots of knowledge being dropped and, uh, yeah, thanks again. 54:16 Thank you, everybody. To chat the offline. Yeah, for sure.

Smartlead office hours: Introducing the Outbound Maturity Curve

Tue, 25 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this Smartlead Office Hours session, Harris Kenny (Founder of OutboundSync) breaks down the Outbound Maturity Curve—a framework that helps teams and agencies move from disorganized outreach to a fully optimized revenue engine. Whether you’re just getting started or ready to scale with systems like Smartlead, Clay, and HubSpot, this talk is packed with strategic guidance, real-world tips, and live Q&A. ## Watch ## Transcript 0:00:09 There we go. Hi, hello, hola, beautiful people. How are we doing today? More coming in, more coming in. There. Sorry if I'm about 70 already. 0:00:26 Hi, Gerardo. How are you, sir? How are you doing for the day? Perfect. You all know the drill. Drop on the comments where you're from, what's the temperature at your place and we'd love to know. 0:00:44 Post which something that's welcome loves to know is, let us know if you're an agency, a SaaS company or an SMB. 0:00:52 Please, drop it on the comments, let it fire up. Madrid 15 make Mexico 70 degrees. Uh, that's kind of cool compared to where we are from. 0:01:02 Vienna 13. Beautiful. Charles, I think we've prepared somewhere close. Uh, India, somewhere close to 30. Uh, right now it's probably 27. 0:01:12 80. Ah, that's kind of odd. India, 22. The rich. Which part of India are you from it? 25 beautiful weather there. 0:01:24 Awesome. But thank you so much people. Thank you so much for taking the time today. Today, we have Harris Kenny. 0:01:33 Harris is The founder of OutboundSync, right? And if I have to give you an understanding of all OutboundSync, OutboundSync basically helps you integrate your sales automation platforms, your marketing tools, everything all onto one place, right? 0:01:48 So beat your deals, your suppression list, your reports. You can basically have it all single one space dedicated for that. 0:01:55 But Harris, I'll pass on the mic to you. If you can give us a quick round of introduction along with the brief of what our OutboundSync does, we'd love to know that. 0:02:03 Absolutely. So hi, everyone. This is my second time on Smart Lead Office Hours. And I just want to apologize. I was just at a conference for the last couple days. 0:02:11 And so my voice is a little tired, but I feel totally fine. And, um, we're really excited to be back and really excited to see all the participants here. 0:02:19 We've got a bunch of people and we've got a lot of good stuff coming in the chat. Um, so I'm gonna give, uh, a little bit more background on myself as we go, as we go here. 0:02:28 I'm better trying to say hello and say very open to Q&A as we go through about this. Um, I used to run a smart lead agency, uh, smart lead partner agency, and we were also Clay experts and then while doing that, we identified a need to build up basically a product, integrating smart lead with other systems 0:02:47 of record. And that's how app on sync was born and I'll talk about that in a little bit. So now we're kind of more of, uh, an app partner. 0:02:53 I guess you could say for smart lead. But we're still really active in the smartlead community and really excited. We are users ourselves of smartly. 0:03:01 So excited to talk about that and talk about how to say we're going to talk about unlocking, um, outbound and then leveraging other systems because landing in the inbox is kind of just the beginning. 0:03:10 So really excited to cover all of that. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Harris. What we're also interested is basically the outbound maturity curve, right? 0:03:18 Everything is a part of it, but we really love that. So people, uh, what Harris has is something called the outbound maturity curve. 0:03:25 A framework that guides businesses from reactive, unstructured to a fully optimized data driven engine, right? And he's going to cover bits and pieces of it from where you start multiple aspects involved on it. 0:03:37 So without further ado, let's get started. Awesome. Okay. Awesome. That sounds great. Let me see if I can share my screen here and make sure everything is working. 0:03:47 Uh, one second. Absolutely. And I'll take the time for that. I'll take a moment here. It uses . Okay, perfect. Okay, um, Akash, can you just see my screen? 0:04:14 Okay. Absolutely. Okay, great. I feel like things, uh, things never work, so I'm glad, I'm glad things are working here. 0:04:21 Okay, so, um, let's, I just want to talk about the outbound maturity curve. So Akash did a great job team this up and he said it in basically in 20 seconds what I'm going to spend, what we're going to spend the next hour talking about. 0:04:32 Um, the idea is that basically when you're doing outbound, there's a whole set of things that go along with it. 0:04:44 And so we talk a lot, obviously, when we're using smartly, we talk a lot about landing in the inbox, talk about email accounts and warm up volumes. 0:04:52 And we talk about copy and lists. But there's a lot of things to go around in this. So there's eight buckets that we're going to talk through around your people, your process, your messaging, data, metrics, and what you're measuring. 0:05:05 And then I break out CRM kind of as as a system of record and then finally automation around that. So we're going to talk through all of that and how to how to have outbound be a strategic and proactive part of your organization and that includes using multiple channels and having it being something 0:05:20 that can help your company really get ahead and not just a way of thinking about trying to get whatever a couple more meetings day or a week or a month. 0:05:28 Um, obviously we want to do that. Um, but what we're finding and, you know, just kind of big picture. Is that this movement, this scaled outbound movement, is going mainstream. 0:05:41 And if you're here right now on this call, you are an early adopter, and you are part of a group of people that are pushing this way of thinking about growth forward. 0:05:57 Very large organizations are watching what Smartlead users are doing and how smartlead users are thinking about growth and they're asking themselves internally. 0:06:09 How do we do that? Companies with thousands of employees, you know, really large organizations are seeing how effective communities like this are being in growing their business. 0:06:24 So I'm really excited to be here and just to kind of share that because Because we sit on the CRM side and so we a lot of times we talk to those organizations because they have security and data and a lot of requirements that we help them meet. 0:06:36 Um, and that's not for everybody and our practice and for everybody and that's okay. I still think there's lessons from what I'm seeing up market that I think I think everyone here will find interesting. 0:06:46 And I think that sometimes we get, we really can we zoom in so much and we think about how many emails that I send this week or, you know, Uh, you know, how do I make sure I get back to my interest that replies really quickly? 0:06:57 So I just want to take today to try to zoom out a little bit and try to provide a little perspective on what we're seeing because what I think is happening is pretty incredible. 0:07:07 I mean, a few years ago, when you talked about these topics with people, they would say we don't have an email deliverability problem. 0:07:15 What are you talking about? Yeah, we send a few thousand emails a day from our sales reps main account from our main domain, the same domain that we use for our billing and what's the problem with that? 0:07:28 And, uh, and now everyone knows that's not the case. Um, but then they're asking like, well, what do we do about it? 0:07:36 Um, so really, really excited to have this conversation. Uh, and those are just kind of like teeing this off. So, um, let me, I want to make sure I can see the comments here. 0:07:43 So just give me a second. To make sure I can see the comments from my screen. I'm just going to change my window really quickly here. 0:07:52 Okay. Okay, great. Um, and so, uh, the structure, uh, thanks, Gerardo. Yeah, I mean, I'm just, I'm just calling it like it is. 0:07:59 Uh, I'm just calling it like I see it. Gerardo got hyped up about the speech, and I mean, that's just what I'm seeing, you know, I mean, that's just, that's just reality. 0:08:06 I think that what's happening right now, this conversation, there are going to be people that are going to be watching this that are in two years. 0:08:13 Or gonna be trying to catch up where people who are here are right now. That's, I mean, I'm just, that's, I mean, you know, of course, you know, I mean, you talk to smart leadusers. 0:08:21 I mean, this is just, that's just the way it is. You know, I mean, I want everybody to feel good. 0:08:25 I'm happy to hype people up, but also I'm really, really, from my heart, I believe that that's reality. What we're at right now. 0:08:30 So it's really exciting time. You know, really exciting time. Um, okay, so, uh, I've got the chat here, feel free to throw stuff in there. 0:08:38 I'm gonna try to keep an eye on it. Um, but with that, Let's, let's just kind of get into it a little bit here. 0:08:44 Um, so background on me, uh, for today, I'm going to talk about how we got here a little bit of my personal background in a little more detail. 0:08:50 We're going to talk about the upbound maturity curve itself. Talk about why you want to get this in your CRM, but really, it would be why would you want this in a system of record in general? 0:08:59 What, what other data is relevant, um, that would, that would interact with or intersect with what we're doing and what we're doing smartly in an outbound. 0:09:08 And then, and then lots of QA day. We'll have a dedicated Q&A in the end, and we'll do a spotlight. 0:09:13 You can get on camera and share some specific stuff too. Okay, so I've mentioned this before, but I'll just go a little bit more personal here. 0:09:20 So I started working for myself in 2019, doing fractional sales work. Um, I actually worked in the hardware industry for a number of years. 0:09:28 So I was helping with a number of hardware companies with, uh, their go-to market. And I noticed that very few of them had CRMs, so I became a hotspot partner. 0:09:37 And so they wanted two things, they wanted to fix your sales process, and they wanted new leads. And so we fixed the sales process by working with TubSpot and becoming a HubSpot partner, and then we helped them get new leads by doing that bound. 0:09:51 And we had used a number of other tools, um, but a little over two years ago, uh, smart lead was created. 0:09:58 And we moved our upbound to smart lead. Totally changed our business. Uh, totally changed my business. Um, and so we've been doing scaled up out and with Smartlead for a long time. 0:10:08 I was also one of the first clay experts. There's a really early user of clay huge, huge fan of the platform. 0:10:13 Um, if you're using clay, um, you know, maybe drop something in the comments about what's your favorite thing to do in clay and what your favorite enrichment is. 0:10:21 I saw a really good post about people using clay. I think probably my favorite enrichment right now that I've been using the most lately, uh, or the favorite feature in clay that I'm using lately. 0:10:30 It's goofy, but I use that little formula generator, so you can kind of create your own custom reg ex. That's, that's kind of my, I keep coming back to it when I need help. 0:10:40 I mean, I should just, at this point, I've spent so much time using AI, writing red jacks. I should just learn how to write regular expressions, but I use that probably all the time. 0:10:49 Charles is a huge form of a fan. So yeah, formula is probably my top, top enrichment that I use. I know that's not, probably not a cool answer, but that's, that's, that's, that's how, that's what I use the most. 0:10:58 Um, And, uh, I shut down my agency full of time. So, so I was running the agency and connecting tools between HubSpot and SmartLead. 0:11:05 And then we had, we had people asking, hey, you know, we also use HubSpot and SmartLead, but we don't want your help. 0:11:11 We have another agency, or we're doing it ourselves. Um, we just want this little app that you built. And that came up enough that I decided to go all the way in and becoming basically, to become a SmartLead app partner and HubSpot app partner. 0:11:22 Um, and, um, so I went all in on that, um, grew the team. Um, we've got We also integrate with Salesforce now and we've grown the product quite a bit. 0:11:31 Um, but so that's that's what I do full-time. Um, we work with over 30 different agencies. I think we work with some of the best, uh, smartlead agencies as partners, but I know there are more that we're not working with and we hope to work with you one day. 0:11:43 And I'm a really big believer in the agency model and I'm a big believer in if you're an in-house person, you know, your skill set is incredibly valuable. 0:11:51 I've watched companies try to stand up this motion on their own. It is not, not easy. Now, I'm going to skip ahead here. 0:12:00 I've got a couple little slides, but I'm going to jump ahead, uh, because I think we covered it. And I'm just going to jump right into the outbound maturity curve. 0:12:08 So, this is a model that I've developed because I've noticed during our discovery calls and conversations with users, kind of where people land in the upbound process. 0:12:18 And so, basically, if you're using smartlead, you're going to be jumping ahead up to almost the level four, almost immediately assuming you've got other parts of your sales engine running. 0:12:27 Because it's going to get you ahead in a lot of ways, uh, in terms of having an advanced tech stack, they're going to allow you to monitor performance that matters, which is like landing in the inbox, right? 0:12:36 I mean, if you're doing a outbound, and you're landing in spam, you're not doing anything, really, right? You're just, I don't know, you're just keeping the spam filters busy. 0:12:46 Um, so I just want to introduce this really quick, and then we'll go through the specific stages. So a level one. 0:12:55 We've got these, these little animals here, level one in the turtle. Uh, it means that the organization is not doing outbound at all. 0:13:02 And nobody's owning it. Maybe everyone's in a while. You've got a sales rep sending an email. You know, here or there or a founder will send an email. 0:13:09 They see something interesting on social. They, they reach out. And typically what we've seen is that to going into an active outbound motion is where a company would look at maybe using a sequencer that's maybe built within a CRM that they're using. 0:13:24 Like a HubSpot or a Close or something else. Um, it's not really optimized for deliverability, but it gives them the ability to send cadences. 0:13:31 Maybe they're even using something within Gmail, um, that allows them to do like mail merge within Gmail or sequences within Gmail. 0:13:37 Um, but it's simple. Not really tracking things all the time. These organizations, maybe they're still thinking a lot about open rates, you know, um, and just kind of some basic metrics around that. 0:13:49 Where, you know, as we scale and we take advantage of some of the powerful features built into smartly, we actually, you know, we see more advanced teams actually disabling open rates most of the time, disabling link, link click tracking most of the time to get those simple HTML emails. 0:14:02 So emails that are, you literally can't send with many platforms. They don't give you the ability to send emails like that. 0:14:09 With many platforms. And so that's why, you know, it smartlead allows you to move up the curve and do things that you just can't do with some other tools, um, which you might take for granted. 0:14:16 If you've just used smartlead it only for sequencing, you've never used other tools before. You may not realize there's, um, you know, one little checkbox that you might think it's just a setting, um, it's actually a pretty interesting feature that doesn't exist in many tools in the market. 0:14:30 So we'll talk about that in a second. Um, and then, and then we start getting into the process piece. So when you're running more consistent campaigns and you're consistently shipping campaigns, consistently getting things out the door, that's where we see organizations are, that's maybe where they start 0:14:46 to realize that they have a, maybe a little bit of a problem. When you're running consistent campaigns, that's when you start to see, Hey, I'm getting, um, I sent out like a thousand emails, but I didn't really get any replies. 0:14:57 What's going on? And I don't want to sit this wrong way. Uh, Tell me a- a- a- a a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a- a-- a- a- a- a- a-- a- a- a- a- a a- a- a- a- a- a True. 0:15:30 I've got to go deeper and I've got to get better data. I've got to get like categorizing these replies. What kind reply is, right? 0:15:36 And that's where smartlead is. AI categorization is really powerful and you can even have your custom categories built into that. 0:15:42 But that's where you start to go drill down deeper and say, okay, and that's where we supposed to move up, move up to a more advanced platform. 0:15:48 You know, that's, you know, if you're running a smartly, you're without too much effort, you can get to that level four in my opinion, where you can just be looking at more important data. 0:15:56 And then we'll talk about that and then level five is Where you have feedback loops. You're using multiple channels. You're using multiple data providers, uh, and you're really kind of going, you know, if you, if you're familiar with Eric Nowoslawski's work, you know, the kind of stuff that Eric talks 0:16:10 about in his loom videos. So we're going to talk about that in greater detail here. So before we go forward, I just want to stop. 0:16:16 I just want to give everyone a chance if you have any questions, um, drop, chop something in the chat and we can talk through this because this is going to tee up the next, um, probably 10 minutes of conversation here, going into these specific levels and then you can think about maybe where your organization 0:16:28 is at. And what do we take to get to the next level? So if there's any questions, feel free to drop in the chat. 0:16:33 I'm going to take a sip of water here. Um, I see Eunice has a good smart lead question. I'm going to let smart lead answer that. 0:16:38 Um, and all right, give me a sack. I'm just going to have some water and drop some questions in the chat if you got them. 0:16:44 In the meantime, for Eunice, I'm dropping a message for you, but you go to your campaign settings, you scroll a bit down and you'll find your AI lead categorization. 0:16:52 So that's available for every plan. Additional information, be by default, use GPT for how many for That if you're a GPT4 user, you can connect to a GPT4 to create even custom lead categories if you want to. 0:17:05 So yeah. For people in the meantime, if you have any questions for Harris, drop us on the chat, drop it on the chat, we'll pick it up and we'll get those answered. 0:17:14 All right. Roshab has a good one in there about receiving a response. It's just a comment you can add a tag in these got those categories or a great call. 0:17:22 Roshab, absolutely. All right. So let's jump in here, have my water, feeling good. Alright. So we covered this. This is basically, you know, you're basically not doing outbound, right? 0:17:35 It's not a time to talk about here. I think the biggest thing I want to emphasize is that if your organization is in this level, you're at risk. 0:17:46 Companies that are not doing any outbound, at all, are at risk of disruption and losing pipeline. So if you're relying on Google Search, Are you relying on, uh, social media channel? 0:18:01 And there's some disruption for whatever reason, algorithms change, or platforms get banned, or, you know, your account gets locked, or who knows, right? 0:18:09 Or you're just relying on maybe one employee's personal network. Or you're relying on trade shows, unless you say hypothetically, there's a global situation where trade shows stop happening for a little while, right? 0:18:20 I'm sure everyone remembers a few years ago when that happened. If you have all your eggs in one basket and you don't have a proactive way to go out and generate leads, it's probably fine until it's not. 0:18:31 And so, you know, what we find is that at some point organizations say, look, we don't want to be reactive like this and we want to have the ability to be proactive, go one offense, go find opportunities for organization and not be stuck. 0:18:43 And that is, I think, the most important mindset to adopt. What we bring on out of Ben, what we're saying is, we want to be able to, you know, be a live player. 0:18:52 Right? To borrow, to borrow a phrase, like don't be an NPC, right? You don't want to be an NPC when it comes to growth of your organization. 0:19:00 You want to be a live player. You want to be able to go out and influence pipeline and make stuff happen. 0:19:05 Um, thanks for joining us. Shalom really appreciate you. All right, um, let's go to the next one here. So let's talk about active. 0:19:18 This is where we're getting started. We've decided. That we want to be at least able to exert some influence over our ability to go our organization. 0:19:27 And we've gotten an emerging process, um, reusing basic tools, maybe general list polls. Now, for organizations that are just getting started on this level two, starting to be a little more proactive. 0:19:39 A lot of times, this is found or led. But many organizations will bring in an entry level SDR and they will have them function in this way too. 0:19:46 And I think that's what's good about this is that you're getting started. Getting something out at the door, learning is good. 0:19:53 Um, the risk, I think, for organizations at this stage is they push the volume too high. And this is where you run into the situation where you can have potentially, uh, risk and domain health. 0:20:04 Um, so I think with active basic testing, basic sequencing, basic lists, you know, you're going to have higher bounce rates, you're going to be probably doing some, some segmentation is going to be off and that's okay, as long as you keep a lid on your volume. 0:20:16 It's when companies let the volume drift up. And so to give you some specific examples, you know, if we're talking about sending hundreds of emails a day, from generic lists, from our main domain, that's when we're going to start having a problem. 0:20:31 So it's nothing wrong with being in this stage of an outbound process, but you have to remember that if, you know, you can jeopardize the health of your domain, and that's your organization's ability to communicate with the world, you have to be careful about letting this volume go up too high. 0:20:48 Because, you know, things like bounce rates matter a lot. And if you're bouncing a lot, um, it's going to create issues for your domain, you know. 0:20:56 Um, all right, let's go to the next slide here and talk about being consistent. So this is now where we have a consistent process. 0:21:08 We've got to standardize and document the process. I think especially this is where we see a couple of these tend to have a dedicated contractor or full-time hire, and their job is, listen, I want you to get fresh campaigns out on a regular basis. 0:21:26 You're thinking about a little bit more. And you're moving beyond some of the basic metrics and you're starting to focus, um, like, um, like, Rashab was mentioning earlier, you're starting to focus on replies and reply rates and positive reply rates. 0:21:38 You're starting to think about that. Um, and if you bring in an agency, if you bring in, if you go to smart lead, dot AI, and if you look at some of the certified partners and experts there, they can get you just basically immediately. 0:21:50 The minute you start working with them, they can get you consistently shipping. And I just want to emphasize that, like, it is not easy to consistently ship decent copy to decently targeted lists. 0:22:01 It is not easy. It requires really commitment. And it doesn't matter if you're using the best tools in the world. 0:22:10 If you're not being consistent, you're not going to be able to get results. Uh, I really like this quote here because it, it's from, um, sorry, jumped ahead by accident. 0:22:20 But it just talks about how you have to standardize the process and you have to measure it, measure that process. 0:22:25 Alright, so I see some really good things coming in the comments and I see some great people jumping in here. 0:22:31 Let me just jump. Let me just look at this. Um, we've got, okay, I want to go on an offense. 0:22:38 I have smartlead my biggest problem is getting a lead list to send to. Yeah, and so this is like, this is where we talk about like this challenge of getting to the consistent, right? 0:22:44 So you can be active and you're thinking about it, but then you jump up to that consistent. This is exactly what we're talking about. 0:22:48 Hey, how do I get that lead list? Can anyone recommend it? And so I, I love what Max is doing here. 0:22:52 I mean, I'm going to, I'm going I'm going I'm going to, I'm going to just, I just want to spot like this because this is like exactly what we're talking about. 0:22:58 You're saying, okay, oh, I want it to be on offense. I want to be proactive. I'm going to start sending these things, but I'm having a hard time doing it regularly. 0:23:03 Like this is it. And, and it, you know, it might. Don't don't underestimate that how hard this is which Jamie's or maybe it's Jaime what Jamie's mentioning here, um So max is right depending on your list. 0:23:18 You know, you can pull from providers like Apollo a leads list kit d7 leaf finder local, um, and you can check out clay Smartly does have native integration with clay. 0:23:28 So I would say you've got like a two two tier problem here potentially Um, one is that you need a list, and then if you're getting a list that's a little bit more, uh, like raw and unsegmented, then you're going to need to segment that list to get, to get it put in the right buckets. 0:23:42 And that's where a tool like a clay can be really helpful. Um, so yeah, consider if, I mean, one of the first things to think about is, are my customers going to be on a tool like social or not? 0:23:53 Are they going to be into some of these structured B2B databases that like an Apollo or a list kid? Would find where they'd be listed there and if so, there's some great providers that can do that. 0:24:02 Seemless.ai. I mean, there are quite a few to look at. Cognism is another, I mean, as you move up market, zoom info. 0:24:09 But there may also be unstructured or at least a little bit relatively less structured data databases. Like they could be on Google Maps. 0:24:17 Um, you could use a tool like Surfer to identify them through search results. They could be on Yelp. They could be on, um, you know, Angie's list or h-o-u-z-z Houz. 0:24:25 Or something like that. So you're gonna think about just where are those prospects and then can I get them from a provider where they're ready enough that I can just put them right in the smart lady or do I need to do some sex sub segmentation within that. 0:24:39 So I maybe get a bunch of contacts from Google Maps, um, and then I use the tags in Google Maps. 0:24:44 So let's say I'm selling to car washes and I want to sell to car washes that, you know, uh, have like an express option. 0:24:53 Versus not just like any car wash like that's that's where you would use segmentation and into like play to potentially build that out and then um, you know, and then the thing is how do you do that on the recurring in a regular basis too? 0:25:03 Alright, let's go ahead and hear. Um, Rashad's got some great advice here. I mean, I'm not going to read the whole thing, but if you go to the chat and see what Rashad is talking about about creating subsets of leads and the number of sequences, um, I think that's exactly right, um, what what's being 0:25:17 mentioned there. Mayor John asks about bouncing, uh, percentages, what's high. Um, I would say, you know, it, it depends on your risk tolerance and, and look at how smartly it's going to measure that. 0:25:34 But some of the providers will talk about, you know, like, fine email talks about having a guaranteed refund, a refund or a satisfaction guarantee if the bounce rate exceeds 5%. 0:25:48 LeadMagic is another provider. We're closely with smartlead. Um, I think the thing about bounces that you have to remember that there are quite a few different reasons why I bounces can happen. 0:26:01 Exactly. And so it cost you want to talk about that a little bit and how smartly thinks about that because I think that's an important topic. 0:26:08 Absolutely, right? Because, you know, one thing that people think is they always fall back to the lead enrichment to lift their bounces. 0:26:14 But what I would suggest is to analyze the bounces. So in smartlead, in the inbox section, you'll basically have the bounce ripple that you've got. 0:26:22 So there are heart bounces, there are soft bounces. Usually, the one with NF code starting with 4 or so often, the one starting with 5 or heart. 0:26:28 But what I would recommend is, analyze your bounce. Down with the GPT, write a prompt pushy. The GPT see which reason seems to be more and we start working from there. 0:26:38 If it seems to be a case where lead does not exist anymore, then probably you should work around your lead enrichment tool and the verification process. 0:26:45 But if there are other things read, let's say, uh, recipients over rejected your email, which can be an indicator for poor deliverability or poor IP health. 0:26:53 We got to work from there. So that's one thing I want to highlight. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and so smartly build a lot of that stuff. 0:27:00 And again, on some of these platforms, it's literally not at all in there, right? Um, last thing I just wanted to touch on here, as we talk about this, um, stage in the outbound maturity curve, um, is that you're starting to think about how do we go from our outbound data model to a full funnel data 0:27:27 model. So in smartlead, sales engagement platform and it can be, it can facilitate action for your sales team. One unique feature in smart lead is the ability to create manual steps in your sequence. 0:27:41 You can create call tasks, you can create, uh, social media outreach steps if your customers are on, you know, platforms like social or X or something like that. 0:27:51 As we get those leads and they get marked as interested. Eventually, we're going to need to move them over to more of a full-life cycle understanding of, okay, they're now, they're, they went from an MQL, now they're an SQL, now they have a deal or an opportunity. 0:28:06 Eventually, that customer is going to convert. So there's this, uh, kind of conversion event that happens when it moves from one data model to another. 0:28:13 And this is where organizations that are at this level three, they're starting to think about that. Um, they have consistent understanding of that data and it's, and it's, and it's able to, um, Go from one system to, like, what's next? 0:28:26 What's the life cycle going to be? And how can I start to think about attribution? So I want to look at positive replies, but not only do I want positive replies, but I also want to think about positive replies that resulted in deals, positive replies that resulted in closed one revenue. 0:28:39 And how can I start to think about that? Um, and so in this stage three, when you're doing consistent sending One of the little things that you need to have in my opinion, if you're here, is you have to have a consistent naming convention for your campaigns. 0:28:55 If you're naming your campaigns differently each time, it's going to limit your ability to actually execute at this level. Because you're not going to be able to easily do reporting and cross object reporting and kind of dissect what's happening. 0:29:11 So a consistent naming convention, in my opinion, is a really important facet of being here. I just want to mention we have if you go to outboundsync.com We have let's go very long a couple thousand word article breaking down all of this with a lot more detail. 0:29:25 Um, so please feel free I know this recording is gonna be available after the fact you can always rewatch it You can always free chat to me with questions But we do have a little bit of a longer resource on this. 0:29:34 Um, I can um, what make make sure we make sure I can drop it in the chat here For people who are interested I mean stick with us. 0:29:39 Don't leave don't leave the conversation. Oops. Um, I sent it as a dm by accident There we go Um, but know that there's more here. 0:29:48 There's a lot more to this. Um, let's keep going. And we're almost done here. We're going to jump into a lot of time for Q&A at the end. 0:29:57 Um, so let me just find my little uh, screen control. Here it is. Okay, coordinated. So this is where we're starting to run more of a fine process. 0:30:12 We're starting to use more specialized tools. And we're trying to do more than a diagnostic stuff that we're talking about, but the, uh, reviewing a bounce data that Akash was talking about, super important. 0:30:25 You can have bounces because you're not, you know, I don't want to call anybody out here, but it's possible that you can have bounces because you're not doing a good job managing the health of the accounts and the domains. 0:30:35 The data is actually fine. You can also have bounces because they don't exist, right? You're sending to, you know, whatever. 0:30:44 Poop at acme.com. Yeah, that email address isn't real. So it's going to bounce, right? But you can have essentially throttled sending where your own email of a writer is blocking the sending from going out because of the, the, the health of the, of the inbox. 0:30:56 It's really important to think about that. Um, sometimes it's the data provider definitely, but sometimes it's you and sometimes it's sitting as you can control. 0:31:02 And so having, um, advanced metrics that allow you to manage that and spend time looking at that. It's super important. 0:31:08 Um, The other thing is that the copy at this point, your copy is better. You need to have that segmentation we talked about, you know, different types of car rushes, ones that have express car rushes versus like, um, more of like, uh, like where you, where your car go like goes through and it kind of 0:31:26 rolls through the line and it washes for you automatically versus the one where people do it or whatever. It's like, those are two different types of car rushes. 0:31:33 Those are going to need two different types of copy. They're going to have two different kinds of problems. So when you're running a coordinated campaign, Not only are you measuring the results, but you're also able to understand like why that copy is performing or underperforming. 0:31:45 So if you talk about the benefits, for example, of like if, you know, if you're, if you're a, uh, SaaS company, you're selling SaaS for car washes and you provide, you know, something that can allow customers can like pay on their own or something like that. 0:31:57 So the car wash can run 24-7 and companies get X percent more revenue overnight because people wash some people work, you know, different jobs and they end up taking their car to the car wash, you know. 0:32:09 Three in the morning or whatever. It's like these are the kind of things that you come and hit on and copy. 0:32:14 And so you're using that data and you're and you're having that data apply in your copy. And so this is beyond spin tax. 0:32:21 This is programmatic copy generation. So you've got like unique pitches and unique messaging positioning across that whole list. And then you're and then you're monitoring the performance of that over time. 0:32:32 And I also believe that part of running this is multi-channel outreach as part of the norm. And we talked about how smartly cannon facilitate that. 0:32:39 Using those manual steps, building in call tasks, building in social media touches. In my opinion, when you're getting here, to this stage, multi-channel is part of it. 0:32:49 Maybe it's WhatsApp. But you can't just be relying on one channel only to do all of the work. Absolutely. Especially if you're getting replies. 0:33:01 If you're sending an email and you get a reply back, you better do whatever it takes to convert that further. 0:33:06 The email tool did its job. You identified a person, you reached out, they confirmed they were interested via email. Now you gotta go be a salesperson. 0:33:15 You need to go do the job, the art and the science and the craft, you know, of selling, which is get in, get that to move forward. 0:33:23 Just because they replied to one email, those, I mean, they'll reply to every other one. People are gonna make a busy. 0:33:28 I'll give you an example here. So I have Three meetings that we have next week. And I've been following up with these people for a year to get the meeting booked. 0:33:42 It takes time. And you have to be patient. And if someone says they're just in what you do, guess how many times you should, uh, how many followups should you do? 0:33:52 Infinite. Keep following up until it's how you leave them alone. If they said they're interested and they have this problem and your product really works, you have an obligation to follow up with them. 0:34:02 Now, Eunice is asking about how do we do hyper-personalized emails? I think a tool like Clay is really powerful here. 0:34:08 Now there are others, um, you know, Databar and there are others that do similar things to what Clay does. Um, so, you know, it's an emerging category, I think, but basically, and you can even do it in Google Sheets. 0:34:19 Um, but you're going to have variables, and you're going to extract information about those, about those companies, and then you can use tools like ChatGPT , um, and others, other AI models to basically come up with that personalization. 0:34:32 And, and then what that looks like and smart lead is that those are going to be variables. Those are going to be variables inside of your smart lead sequences. 0:34:44 Now, we've got a good question here. Gave's asking, is it a reasonable expectation to be able to implement it on your own? 0:34:48 Frankly, It depends. I would say, like, I've seen a lot of organizations really struggle to adopt clay. This is part of the reason why I'm so bullish. 0:34:56 Just came from their animal theme here, why I'm so optimistic about the value of that agency's ad. This stuff is really hard. 0:35:03 And if you're not doing it day in and day out, and if your organization is reasonably big, you know, you're gonna have some resources and it'll probably just save you a heck of a lot of time to get someone come in and help. 0:35:16 Shops talking about how they're also using make To do some really interesting things here make.com for some interesting automation tools and some people may find that easier or zapier or things like that Yeah, this is an interesting question from units that I wanted to touch on how to smartly know which 0:35:34 variation for which company after I'm doing these personalized emails So smartlead does keep track of Variations definitely, but this is where I believe the naming convention is so important So if you have a really unique offer, my recommendation is that those should be separate campaigns. 0:35:50 Just when you think about the data model and the hierarchy of the data of the campaign, if you're doing this at the campaign level, it's much easier to parse out results. 0:35:58 My recommendation is that if you're doing variations within smartlead, that they should be variations within a theme. Testing comparable subject lines. 0:36:08 Now, smartlead does give you variation breakout reporting, which is awesome. But if you want to take that data and you want to extract it and do that transformation somewhere else if you're using other reporting and BI tools, I do believe that because smartly doesn't bill you for the number of campaigns 0:36:22 you have, I think there's a benefit in doing more of this variation at the campaign level. Okay, let's keep going here. 0:36:33 Some really good questions. Someone may be able to speak to this. Gabe's asking okay if I bring in someone what's the price range for a small company and trying to understand the scale of a budget. 0:36:47 So I would say like when you think about bringing in help, let's answer this and then we'll keep going. This is a great question by game. 0:36:52 Uh, so if you like about bringing in help, there's a couple of different ways people can help you. One is they can run the whole thing for you and end everything. 0:36:59 Uh, run the campaigns, manage the domains, write the copy, do all that stuff. I think increasingly we're finding people that can help with just like creating those clay tables. 0:37:09 More of, uh, specialized consultants that just focus on clay. It's, it's your job to bring the ICP and the knowledge, um, and maybe you may even manage most of the smart lead piece. 0:37:20 So I'd say if you go to Clay's community, um, Slack, and you say lists and we're hiring, we're really helping this role. 0:37:26 I think you might be able to get a sense of, of who can help you and what that budget looks like. 0:37:31 Um, Clay, it can be difficult to scope. Unless you have a really good sense of what you're asking for. Um, you might be able to do this on a project basis, or you might, might find somebody doing it on an hourly basis for you. 0:37:44 Um, but I would say my biggest advice just kind of keeping with the theme of today is you kind of walk before you've run. 0:37:49 So if you're doing campaigns at a certain level right now, you don't have to do this crazy, every single thing is GPT, maximize whatever. 0:37:58 Just, just get a little bit better today versus where you work today. So if you're not checking the, that is an email, for example. 0:38:05 Have you can have someone come in and help you set up a clay and and do the email verification. Or, you know, if you're doing that email verification, but then, you know, what you want to have is you want to do better segmentation. 0:38:14 Just have them help you use maybe, um, where we love us or or claygent to segment and split that list up into two or three buckets, something like that. 0:38:24 So that would be my my encouragement is thinking about incremental progress. Someone had a comment here that I thought was just spotted on about how Charles said it's never ending. 0:38:34 Uh, journey. Uh, I think that's right. I think that's exactly right. I think that's exactly the mindset you want to have. 0:38:41 And it said it's never ending journey. And you're going to keep going. Um, you know, the good news and the bad news. 0:38:47 It's kind of cissifician. I mean, you never get the bolder over the hill. You're always, you're always pushing, unfortunately, but, um, but that, you know, always get a chance to learn and get better too. 0:38:58 Alright, so let's talk about this last bucket here. Really great questions. I really, really, really appreciate it. The engagement, um, love the chat. 0:39:04 Thanks everybody. Um, let's talk about optimized. What does optimized look like? I think that the biggest thing that makes this unique versus the other things we talked about is the feedback loops and the automation. 0:39:15 Is that you've got triggers that are happening so that when you're when bounce rates hit a certain level or when reply rate exceeds in, you know, which is positive exceeds a certain level. 0:39:25 Oh, sorry. Um, uh, hold on my, this little thing is jumping out of control here. There we go. There's our cheetah. 0:39:32 Um, That, that, that it's a strategic asset that's driving other channels. You've got automation in multiple steps. You've got it fully integrated with the system of record. 0:39:42 You're able to see When things are working, you can follow it all the way through the funnel to closed one. 0:39:48 You can even look at retention. So I can say, hey, when I engage with someone from an outbound perspective, how long does it take me to close them? 0:39:56 What's the average deal size? How quickly do those deals close? What does our retention look like for outbound sourced versus inbound source? 0:40:04 You know, you're taking advantage of multiple channels and you've got a different, you know, you've got a team involved. You've got multiple people on the team involved. 0:40:12 And you potentially even have like an outbound leadership council. Some sort of strategic function within the org where people are sharing best practices between marketing sales and customer success and identifying, hey, like, this is an interesting thing that we're seeing in customer success. 0:40:26 Customers are telling us to turn onboarding that they actually switch from this other tool because we offer X. Get that to the SDR, get that to the GTM, get that function, get that to the agency. 0:40:39 We should be talking about that feature. Yeah, we offer it and during onboarding customers are stoked about it and here's why we should be running campaigns that speak to that pain point. 0:40:48 You know, that I think the biggest thing is that this at when you get running at level five or you've got a lot of automation and thing and there's a lot of communication cross-functional communication between the teams. 0:40:58 Um, I just wanted to touch really quickly on why you should sync to a CRM. Now we obviously focus on HubSpot and Salesforce, there are others. 0:41:05 Uh, many, many systems are record out there. We've got customers asking about sinking into data warehouses like Snowflake. I mean, I've mentioned this a few times, so I just want to drive this home. 0:41:13 You want to be able to attribute revenue. You want full final tracing of what's working and not just positive reply rate. 0:41:20 It's important. It's really important, but it's not everything. We don't just want replies because I can't, I don't know about you, but I can't pay my mortgage with positive replies. 0:41:28 I need people to eventually decide to give me money. And I think your organization is probably the same way. Um, we want to have visibility across the organization so people can see what's going on. 0:41:39 Not everyone's going to understand what's happening. And if we're using a really advanced go-to-market motion, very few people in the organization are going to understand what and the world we are talking about. 0:41:48 But at the minimum, we want them to able to see what's happening. So when it sales rep or an AE, when they get past the lead that we generate for them through a tool like smart lead, they can see what we were doing, right? 0:41:58 Without them having to necessarily understand how the, how it was made. They could just say, it tastes great. Love it. 0:42:04 Um, and then lastly, blocking outreach. You know, it's probably has very powerful block list function. API allows you to do that on a dynamic basis. 0:42:12 We want to use real, real time, real world data from our CRM when customers are moving into that status of customer or open deal or whatever. 0:42:19 We want to prevent them from outreach. So our CRM or our system of record, it's important for those reasons. Let's see. 0:42:26 We've got some comments here. I'll jump in here and I think we just kind of shifted a queue and I hear at the end. 0:42:30 But before we do that, Akash. I just wanted to give you a chance. Um, absolutely. I do take one. I'm going to, I'm going to also turn off my screen here because I got nothing on. 0:42:39 Well, I'll turn it off because I don't have anything else. Go ahead. Absolutely. So my question is, you know, talking to users on a daily basis, right? 0:42:46 You see, some people are probably on the level three already, as you mentioned. Yeah. Some people are probably on the level one. 0:42:51 And ideally, where they'd want to leave where it is. Anywhere it desires to be is in the level 5. So, if you can just give us a quick recap of pointers as what are one of the things that they need to look for? 0:43:03 If they have to straight jump into level 4 or level 5, what would it be? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, if basically you feel like you're doing outbound and you feel like it's not working. 0:43:16 Um, I think the first question is that the two places I think to look to move yourself up the curve are where am I getting my data from? 0:43:25 True. And, and how am I engaging my prospects? Um, and I think that if you improve your data sourcing, so you get, you get, uh, more fresh or more, um, more segmented lists. 0:43:41 And, and then you engage with those lists, using tools that, where when you send an email, then people actually get it, you know, that's what smartly is solving for. 0:43:50 I think we're doing those two things and then the third piece of that is that you do it consistently. That'll move you from like a level zero level one up to a level three level four. 0:44:01 Um, so, so yeah, I think it's, it's, it's, um, it's those three pieces. I think are the most important thing. 0:44:10 And so if you're not sure, um, the place I would start would be your tech stack, because if you're landing in spam, nothing else matters. 0:44:18 So start there. And the next place I would go would be where am I sourcing these lists from. Then The third one is what's my process. 0:44:29 And, and how am I doing this consistently? So that's what I, that's the order I would go with is if I'm landing in spam, stop landing in spam, if I'm emailing the wrong people, start emailing the right people, then let's email more people. 0:44:40 Um, but I would, I would go in that order. Yeah. And once the process is done, probably the next thing, uh, would it be, you know, looking at the reporting and understanding, having feedback groups basically? 0:44:51 Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, I would say feedback loops and then and then looking at multi-channel like I mean, I think here's the thing like smartly it enables it to remain no tasks But like not all of this is like what a traditional sequencer has to do But you know, but I think what the point 0:45:04 is that you can only expect email to do so much like at some point if someone says to you I'm interested You you got to get their attention. 0:45:14 I mean what more do you want? They said yeah, I have this problem Pick up the phone, you know call them back addthem on social sent them a note in the mail send them a direct mail to get their attention like email did its job, right? 0:45:29 I mean you discovered someone and they and they validated to you. Yeah. I'm interested. Um, if you're not willing to if you say, well, I emailed him back and they never got back to me. 0:45:39 I don't know, I guess. Okay. Like people are busy. It's not pretty. Yeah. It's not personal. People are busy. Man, it's, uh, that's one major advantage of one of the channels as well, right? 0:45:52 So even if it's a no or even if it's a no to student, you get to your from it at least say from any channel, be it call, be the message or be the link message at some point. 0:45:58 Yes. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what the power of email is that allows you to do it at scale. 0:46:05 And that's incredibly useful because otherwise you're making 10,000 phone calls. I mean, I don't knowabout twoaypi, but I would rather make 10 calls. 0:46:12 Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and so because that's, that's the most valuable time. So it's like, what do we want to do? 0:46:17 Well, you know, we use these tools to spend more time talking to our customers and to our perspective customers. And, um, so yeah, a really good question here by El Vira here. 0:46:27 Um, what's that way? What's that practice to move from active to consistent? So if the response rates are low, I would say, you know, if that means you're actively thinking about outbound, you're somewhat sporadically, but you are sending emails. 0:46:38 But if your response rates are low, I would focus on why before I'm consistently cranking out Underperforming campaigns. And that's not offensive. 0:46:47 It's okay. Response hits being low. It was okay. You're, you're learning. I can't tell you how many, I mean, I've been doing this for, you know, four years now. 0:46:58 Like the number one failure mode in outbound is failure to launch. It's not, it's not rockets blowing up in the sky. 0:47:07 It's people don't even build the rocket in the first place. I mean, that's the number one failure mode that I've seen an outbound over four years. 0:47:16 It's failure to launch, failure to just try. So if you're in that position, if you're in that active level, uh, like Elvira was asking about here, um, first of all, I just recognize that you're ahead of a lot of people who say, oh yeah, I'm sorry. 0:47:29 I watch this stuff. I watch these videos on YouTube. One day, I'm going to send some outbound. One day, one day, one day, one day, one day, one day. 0:47:36 So think about data. Think about segmentation. Think about the offer, um, and Enzo across at C17. doessome really excellent work on offers. 0:47:48 Um, I would say also it's possible that you may be getting some conversion from other channels. We work with understory who smartlead partner what we found they also run paid ads and what they found with their clients is that they have customers that are converting from other channels so they're not 0:48:06 necessarily replying but then they go So, if they email 10 people, they've got another 10 to 20 that have been converting through other channels. 0:48:33 So, when you talk about replying to being low, definitely you want to improve that. It's possible, however, depending on your product and your go-to-market motion. 0:48:40 That you may be getting some conversion elsewhere. Um, so I would say think about that. And that's the value of getting the data into CRM, um, whether you do it, you know, with us or some other way. 0:48:50 But those conversions matter. Those conversions don't always come through the same channel at the same time from the same address. 0:48:56 Sometimes they come from somewhere else. Um, and that's a fact. We've looked at, I've looked at example after example, um, real data. 0:49:03 I mean, what? Well, OutboundSync partner OutboundBuddy, a smartlead partner that we had to campaign with them. Customers thought they only generated 17 meetings from rap bound in a single month, but then when they looked at multi-touch attribution, they looked at all conversion. 0:49:16 It was actually 52, 52 meetings that they had booked throughout bound, not 17, but they had to look at, they had to open the aperture, look at the whole funnel. 0:49:25 So that's something to think about when you think about conversion and is it working or not? I would, it depends on your situation, but I just want to mention it because I think it's relevant. 0:49:32 Um, we've definitely seen that. Which like, oh, actually, I've been working way better than we thought. Um, it's just that people don't always reply right away to the one message at that one time. 0:49:40 They forward it to somebody. They post it on the slack, you know. I like, like, and how is probably you open the flow for questions, right? 0:49:49 But before we do that, one last question from my end is agency versus doing this in-house. Because a lot of sales teams, a lot of early stage startups, they are confused as to if they can actually do everything in-house, or if they have to approach an agency. 0:50:04 What are your thoughts on it? And if, if they have to go for an agency, when is the right time that they can identify that? 0:50:11 Yeah. Um, I think that the agency versus houses are really interesting and it's a good question. I think that if you need results quickly, agency. 0:50:21 If you have some time, Or, if you have, uh, just an exceptional person on your team, then you can do it in-house. 0:50:34 If you're gonna do it in-house, pick a person. Pick that person who's good at figuring stuff out, they're creative, and they get stuff done, and stick them on it. 0:50:47 Don't have the whole team try to figure it out at once. Get success going with one person who's really competent and capable and then replicate what they're doing across your org and they'll know your internal process and your internal requirements and they'll be able to build it specific to your org 0:51:03 . Um, but that those are the people who have seen the people who have seen success while I've done it that way. 0:51:11 And we'll pick up questions from the chat, but people, like, you know, the floor is also open for questions. So if you'd want to berically be on Spotlight, ask your questions to Harris. 0:51:19 Please, please raise your hand. Uh, you have the react icon in the center. Just click on that, raise hand, and I'll spotlight you. 0:51:25 You can ask your questions directly to Harris. There you go. Philip, if you can turn on your video, I'll go ahead and spotlight you made. 0:51:53 All right. So what you can do is I'll probably unmute you directly. So there you go, we can go ahead and ask you a question. 0:52:00 Can you unmute yourself? Yeah. My camera is not working so that's why my screen is black. So my question right now I'm targeting e-commerce brands and I'm trying to find ways to personalize my emails so that each email is basically unique and Right now, the, the offer is, is, is a free audit of Google 0:52:29 ads and also their, their site for zero. And, um, I'm, I'm trying to find ways to personalize e-trim, so I'm, I'm not sure how exactly to do it. 0:52:41 The person who is the email, like, scrape their, their site and personalize by the products they're selling or personalize by, what? 0:52:51 Who their likely target market is or or some other ways. Yeah. I mean, my, I mean, right now I can love the answer, but I think the, you know, you're going to learn this just by testing. 0:53:05 I don't know exactly what, um, you're, you're solving what problem you're solving for them. Um, but it's going to depend on on. 0:53:13 On that and that'll determine the personalization that you might want to put in there. So if you're improving their conversion rate on their page, or if it's a security thing, or if it's financing, I don't know, or web dev or something like that, you're just going to have to test it. 0:53:28 Now, fortunately with e-com, they're very transactional, and so, and you can make some assumptions. Eric has done some good videos, basically like extrapolating based on the average value of these products, with here's what I think we can save you if we improve XYZ or whatever. 0:53:42 It's like abandoned cart or whatever. Um, and it looks like there's some feedback here potentially in the chat as well that you might want to check out. 0:53:50 Um, but I think you're, I think you're just going to have to test it. Um, and, I think that if you use a tool like clay, it can allow you to create those multiple variations at scale programmatically. 0:54:00 Um, but I would think about where you've had conversion, like for the customers that you have, why? What is it that what was the problem they have? 0:54:08 And I would just focus on that and try to replicate that success. Um, because what you're doing is relatively unique. 0:54:14 And so I would, I would try to focus on that. Um, but like just an audit, it's kind of like, eh, people get emails like that a lot. 0:54:21 Um, Try to try try try try to figure out how to stand out, but I also maybe somebody here has better experience to become more experienced become than I have. 0:54:29 So I don't I don't want to act like the total authority on that one. Glad. Yeah. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you, Philip. 0:54:39 Any other questions? How do we can turn on the video? I'll support you, sir. There you go. Go for your question. 0:54:48 All right. Thank you. Hi, Harris. Can you hear me okay? Here's a clear. Alright, awesome. Uh, so thank you for all this great information. 0:54:57 I love that kind of maturity life cycle. Uh, so interestingly enough, we are in the industry with supporting a new regulation that they just passed. 0:55:06 I hate regulations, unless it brings new business. It's called cyber security maturity model. So for all of the, uh, defense contractors or all the companies that have worked with the defense, uh, industry, uh, defense, uh, The, the I.B. 0:55:21 Uh, they have to get new certification. So we build the product. So we build a list and we're trying to reach out to them and we have a handful of customers. 0:55:29 So we're starting to, uh, uh, build campaigns to get to them. But we're starting from zero, no experience. And, and you know, a lot of great feedback and I'm starting to fumble in the dark. 0:55:42 We build warmed up all our accounts. I should say about 47. Nice. And what we like to do is work with some agencies to really, we like to use our systems. 0:55:54 We like to do things in-house and learn. And agencies want to kind of bring everything in-house and keep the data, keep the lists. 0:56:03 And I'm wondering if your agency would be able to kind of work with us with our system, provide coaching. Do you work in a system like that where companies, if you work with the companies to kind of guide, be compensated based on kind of the outcomes and the performance. 0:56:19 But more with their within their system. So we have obviously Smartlead and we'll probably sign up for clay, uh, we use this to get data from them, but I hate those b******* because they make you work for hours to click button to research, which I don't understand why they do that. 0:56:37 Uh, we'll probably switch to Smartlead, uh, LeadMagic to do that. But anyways, I'm interested in to understand if you have any kind of thoughts on how to get going. 0:56:49 Yeah, yeah. Provide coaching advice and. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I mean, so for me, for us, like, so I don't, I don't run an agency anymore. 0:56:58 I did shut my agency down, but we will work with a bunch. And so I can give you some perspective. 0:57:01 So generally, the performance based paper lead model, they, they tend to run the whole thing end to end. And they also tend to send more email. 0:57:09 Um, but all you get, all you pay for are the qualified leads and the pay per meeting, depending on your, um, customer value, you know, those, that pay per meeting can be anywhere from, you know, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars to even up to a thousand dollars. 0:57:22 It depends on what you do, who you talk to, but they tend to own the process. So I think if I were you, what I would focus on, I would probably drill down and focus on either like a clay person who can help manage that process of segmentation for you and or a copywriter. 0:57:38 Dean's asking if this is going to be available. Dean, I believe the answer is yes, but I'll let smartlead answer that. 0:57:43 Um, so I think I would focus on a specific area where you're stuck and just get a specialist for that. 0:57:48 If you want to, if you want to shepherd the whole process through. Frankly, like your setup is smartlead, you're already familiar with multiple data providers. 0:57:55 Um, you would know the problem with which is this regulatory shift. I think that probably I would just focus on a copywriter. 0:58:03 And or maybe a clay person to help on the on the data side. Um, I don't think I don't think I don't think you need an end person. 0:58:09 I would just take a shot at it like you're doing. And I just wanted to say to everybody here. I mean, first of all, if you think you can help, um, uh, if you think you can help, give it give a holler, right? 0:58:20 Maybe you can help mount, um, so maybe set up a message after it's only to have fun on social. If you can help her route. 0:58:26 But, um, well, how do I find like people? Yeah, well, smartlead has it anyone, smartly has it. Yeah, yeah, smartlead has an expert directory. 0:58:36 You should check out, uh, but I just want to say in general that everyone here, this kind of regulatory shift. 0:58:43 This is a great use case for outbound. So we're talking about being reactive for proactive. There's a change in the market overnight, something changed. 0:58:51 This is exactly the kind of thing where outbound can work really well, especially if you have a good offer. But this is something where like the thing about outbound is like we can find the right people and we can get a message in front of him. 0:59:01 It's like a private ad network. Uh, a lot of people are using that and I think that's exactly right. This is the kind of thing where outbound tends to do really well. 0:59:10 Um, so it's me. It sounds like a really exciting opportunity. It sounds like you put some good engineering and thought into a higher sum of the problem. 0:59:17 So I would say yeah, to me, ultimately, yeah, it's the list two components of read whether this works for you or not. 0:59:23 It seems like the list And then the copy, specifically the offer, so to think about maybe finding copy writers, uh, in particular. 0:59:30 Uh, we sent, so with the list, what we did, we went and, uh, Sam, I heard of Sam.gov. We basically, everyone who gets a contract from God. 0:59:37 So we extracted the data from there, who, anyone who got an award from the DOD Department of Defense. And then we reversed and it mirrored that founded domains and then found all the contacts from that. 0:59:48 So we know they got a contract from the DOD and we know they have to comply with this regulation. So it's not, we're not shooting in a dark. 0:59:54 Yeah, because every, you know, he hands out almost a trillion dollars a year under anything from weapons to satellites to chicken eggs and uniforms, right? 1:00:04 So every industry can think of, you can't segment it. Uh, so how do I find that directory, by the way? 1:00:10 Is, uh, the guys in the world can find us kind of qualified copywriters or clay experts? Yeah, so if you go to smartlead.ai, I'll let the smartly team follow up, but, um, there should be, uh, under resources, there should be a certified partners page. 1:00:26 Um, you, how do the website, uh, so smartly, uh, so different. Yep. You can give me the link. I don't see it. 1:00:36 I, uh, you guys have resources. I'll certify partners. Here we go. And all right. Yep, and you can do it. 1:00:53 There's ways to filter that by a specialty email copywriting. Okay. Cool. Probably use copywriting. All right. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. 1:01:03 Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for coming. All right. What was your website, by the way, because it was trying to look for that article you mentioned on. 1:01:11 Oh, yeah. Uh, yeah. Uh, so we're about sync.com. Yeah, I'll give up on sync.com. I can, I can drop it in the chat here. 1:01:18 Um, yeah, if you just type in, let me see how, how good we are with Google. Let me see. Outbound journey curve. 1:01:30 Yeah. If you just type in nice, cool. If you just type in outbound maturity curve in Google, you should get it. 1:01:38 Okay. You mentioned there's like a big article you had on tagging or organizing, uh, Names? Um, sure. Might be spacing. 1:01:57 I'm not sure. Uh, it's all right. Cool. Okay. Awesome. Great, great questions, man. Thank you very much. Oh, yeah. There's a link to join the Smartlead Slack community this time. 1:02:06 If you're not in the Slack community for Smartlead, definitely, definitely, definitely join that. Hi, I'm sorry. No, we overshot this by five minutes. 1:02:17 My question will be really quick. So, uh, we are an automation as a service agency where we create workflows and, uh, basically tailor to specific business cases. 1:02:29 And currently we are, uh, running this offer where we do two complimentary workflows and do a complimentary automation audit. And, uh, The show in the market is people, they are kind of scared, uh, because the policies, their, their SOPs, they do change all the time. 1:02:51 And obviously market is very dynamic. So sometimes their business requirement changes and that is why we have this, um, 90 days post implementation support. 1:03:03 But still, I cannot get people to say yes. Is there something wrong with my offer or, uh, like, uh, I need a copywriter because I've been in this space for past six, seven years. 1:03:20 We get, uh, good three to four percent of the response rate and a quarter of these responses are positive. Yeah. 1:03:30 Yeah. I mean, I like, I like what you're thinking about. I mean, I just, you create comments in the chat, obviously. 1:03:35 I get a sense that you know what you're talking about, or you're using ChatGPT to make comments. Not at all. 1:03:41 Not all. So what I think, um, you know, it's a means to an end, right? Like nobody wants a workflow. 1:03:49 They want the result of the workflow. And so I think if you think about, look at the ones that you've built in the past and like, where do they sit within the organization? 1:03:58 And what's the problem that you're solving? I know we're a little long here, folks. I think we'll probably go for three more minutes. 1:04:02 Maybe if that's okay with everybody's, we'll try to get to Eunice's question and then we'll probably call it. Uh, you have to think about what is the workflow solving for them and center your solution around that, right? 1:04:14 Okay. Hey, like, um, you know, we've helped companies automate their handoff from like sales to customer success. And as a result, the retention has gone up. 1:04:23 You know, do you have any workflows or between those departments that you think like you could maybe use help solving to help your customer. 1:04:29 To help improve your attention or your, uh, reduce your onboarding time or accelerate your time to value. Like, that's the thing that they want to solve and the workflow is the means to the end and they might, because people's willingness to put up with crappy process is like pretty high, right? 1:04:43 Like they're willing to put up, I mean, they're obviously already putting up with it, right? They're already working with you, right? 1:04:47 So you have to kind of tie it to like, I get it, like, nobody wants to build another workflow per se, but don't you want this other thing? 1:04:55 So that, that I think, I think the, the, the offer is an interesting one. Because look, this is, this is how I get you there. 1:05:02 But that is the thing that they, no one like wakes up and says, I would love somebody for me to build a workflow today, you know, um, but they do say, gosh, I'm working stuck. 1:05:12 Why are onboardings working stuck? Why is it taking us a month to finish I'm working? It should be like closer to two weeks. 1:05:18 And you say, well, data from the sales team is not getting passed over to customer success. So they're having to start from scratch every time or data from marketing is not getting passed to sales. 1:05:29 Stuff like that, you know, sales is having to manually do research, and so we solve that for you. The way we do it is workflows. 1:05:35 I can build two and so you can see how it works. Is that interesting? So I would think I would try to think about that. 1:05:39 It's a hard problem. It's a hard problem. I mean, you're obviously smart guys. It's not like, not like easy, but I would think about. 1:05:45 I think I would personally think about it that way. I understand. I'll implement this in my next campaign. Definitely. Okay. 1:05:53 Awesome. Awesome. Alright, Eunice, Eunice, you're closing us now, man. Yeah, last question for today is going to be Eunice. Sorry if I can turn on the video. 1:06:02 I'll quickly spotlight you. Are you in there? Or even can you unmute yourself at least? We're gonna fall asleep with his hand up. 1:06:17 Yeah, there he is. No, no, no, no. I'm trying to unmute it, but it's all good now. All you guys doing? 1:06:23 Oh, good, sir. Thanks for coming. Yeah. Yeah, thank you too, man. First of all, thank you so much for the call for the knowledge, especially Harris. 1:06:31 It's been really helpful for us. My question is really quick. So, as you said, like, you use clay. So, I was wondering, like, how can I get to the step to the personalization of, like, phrases in the emails at skill, like, using ChatGPT for scrapping or like, website scrapping? 1:06:52 Because, like, I want to have, like, different emails or Each prospect, because now I have the list. Uh, I have the emails. 1:07:00 It's been warmed up since like four or five weeks now. So I'm thinking to, to just get this done so I can start like the ball get rolling, you know. 1:07:10 Yeah, totally. Um, so there's like, I think like there's, there's three ways to do this. So well, four, I guess, the, the basic way would be like every email is the same. 1:07:19 We don't want, we don't want to do that. Um, The next is using spin, spin tax, right? So you're finding just equivalent words. 1:07:26 Hi, hey, hello, you know, Buenos dias, good morning, howdy. Okay. Um, and, and smartlead support that and spend other than nothing, but we can do better. 1:07:35 Um, the next thing is I think to take your copy and break it into chunks. So instead of just single words, spintax, take like a sentence and you can use AI. 1:07:44 To generate variations of sentences and you break that email into chunks of like pain point, solution, next step or whatever. 1:07:51 It's like a three, three chunks of the email. I think the final version would be that you're feeding all of those into like a larger prompt and you're having GPT through Clay programmatically write each email unique, um, with reference to emails and Clay has some built-in templates that can help you 1:08:06 do that. Um, and if you, and if you're, if you're kind of heavy handed about how you're prompting it, then you can make sure that it's not just like adding like, uh, I hope all of those well or whatever the stuff at the beginning that you don't want, um, that would be like the kind of the four ways to 1:08:20 think about it. First one, don't do it. Uh, everything's the same. Second one, spin text. Okay. But spintax allows you to start thinking structurally about the email and the components of the email and then the last one is you put what you're doing when you're creating those structure pieces. 1:08:34 You push that into a prompt and then you have GPT do it, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, each time, and you can feed it more context, feed it the company description, feed it the industry, feed it, head count, feed it, the title of the product, the contact stuff like that. 1:08:48 And how do you do it like the feed them part? Is it like using clay? Because I don't have any of our clay for the work. 1:08:53 Yeah, yeah, so each of those would be columns, right? So imagine you have a table spreadsheet clay table and you have like job title, then you have industry, then you have company description. 1:09:02 Then in your final play like composition column in that problem, you would say, I'm going to give you information about a company, including their job title industry company description. 1:09:12 And then you kind of work through and then you would give an example email to have it work off of. 1:09:18 Okay, so you're like in the beginning for a play, you give emails, then you get like all the information so you can personalize it on this information, the emails, yeah? 1:09:26 Exactly. Okay, I see. I see. I see. Okay. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. Great. Great question. Great question. 1:09:34 And Trophic mentioned Clay Twain integration. Definitely check that out. How is? Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming in for the second time. 1:09:43 We'd love to have you more and this was gold, right? Uh, for me, I got a lot of new pointers. 1:09:47 This was absolutely, you know, crazy. And people check out OutboundSync . Uh, you OutboundSync . The website is there on the chat and you search for the article. 1:09:57 It's probably I think, you know, how does your smile made me realize it's showing up on the top. So it's dropped up there on top. 1:10:03 Check it out. Check out our bone sink and quick call outs from mine before I finish up. Smartlead based plan user's API is live of a global analytics version 2 is going to be out live next week. 1:10:15 And they also have some new vendors who are going to be on board with the smart sender next week. So these are updates from my side. 1:10:21 Do you have anything else before you part ways? No, thank you all. It's a privilege to chat with the community here. 1:10:26 I really appreciate everyone's time and I really appreciate all the active participation makes this makes this really fun. So thank you all very much. 1:10:33 Absolutely. Thank you so much for taking time people. Uh, as you always say, three consistent things in life, death, taxes, and office hours every Thursday. 1:10:42 See you all on the next one. Have a great week. Yes. Bye.

Scaling outbound in HubSpot: An interview on OutboundSync’s approach

Mon, 17 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this episode of Better Together, Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync) joins Blake Lytle of Supered conversation to share how OutboundSync helps HubSpot users seamlessly integrate outbound data into their CRM, unlock revenue attribution, and support scalable, compliant outbound sales motions. They discuss Harris’ journey from agency partner to app partner, the challenges of early outbound adoption in the HubSpot ecosystem, and how OutboundSync now helps sales teams and HubSpot partners drive better results with tools like Smartlead, Instantly, and EmailBison. Watch the video or read the full transcript below to learn how HubSpot users are running multi-channel outbound at scale—better, together. ## Sections The sections below include a clickable timestamp that will take you to the exact point in the conversation where this topic is discussed. 0:06 - What Better Together is all about & why you should care 0:19 - Meet Harris Kenny & how he went from agency owner to app builder 1:40 - Why outbound was ignored in HubSpot for so long (and why that’s changing) 3:33 - The big shift: How outbound is now driving massive revenue for HubSpot users 7:50 - Who NEEDS outbound sync (If you check these boxes, call Harris ASAP) 11:29 - The secret sauce: How Abound Sync + Supered transform sales reporting 15:12 - Why HubSpot partners should be doubling down on outbound NOW 21:37 - HubSpot’s product team is ahead of the market—here’s what that means for you 22:49 - How to get started with outbound (without breaking your system) ## Transcript 00:05 Everybody, welcome to Better Together. This is going to be a new series about HubSpot and its app partners and how we are helping build the HubSpot ecosystem to make HubSpot even more powerful for you, the end user and partners. 00:20 Uh, today, I got Harris Kenny here. He's, uh, awesome to work with. I've been, I've known him for a while now. 00:27 It's probably been like a year or so. Uh, actually met him from super. He's one of our users and uh, he's been really joy to learn from. 00:34 So, uh, let's dive right in. So, where I like to start is I know you started your journey as a partner. 00:42 I really would like to understand like, how did you come up with this idea? Like, why did you decide to go all in on like building this company versus building your agency and like, what's your goal of this company? 00:57 For sure. Well, first man is great to chat, and it was fun meeting you in person at INBOUND as well. 01:02 Yeah, I was about ecosystem is small. I think we bumped into each other at the airport, and I was like, I know you. 01:08 Which I feel like that happens a lot in, uh, inbound world. But I ran a solutions partner agency, uh, shout out to my old CAM, Jake Basile, great guy. 01:19 We, I ran that agency for a couple years. I was doing outbound. So I mean, I started doing sales consulting in 2019. 01:26 And so it's, you know, it's almost six years since I went out on my own now. And I was helping, especially hardware companies with scaling because I had worked in hardware for six years. 01:38 And I was noticing like a lot of times they didn't have systems. So, you know, we was doing a combination of outbound for them and then setting up CRMs and a lot of times it was HubSpot. 01:46 So I decided to become a HubSpot partner. And then sort of inevitably these companies were asking like, Hey, could we get this outbound? 01:55 Data, these leads in HubSpot, because you just set us up with HubSpot as our CRM, and there weren't great integrations for that. 02:02 And so that was kind of where the app for OutboundSync came from. It was, I had a client, and, you know, we were using smartly, I initially set up the first version of it with make, and using ChatGPT, figured out the API calls, and it was okay, but it was like very brittle, and it broke a lot. 02:18 And, uh, so then did a trade with a client, actually, where they built the first like full code version. And, um, then it was posting about it, it was getting traction, started getting people saying they didn't actually want my help on the services side, they just wanted the app. 02:31 And so that was happening more and more. And then, you know, the HubSpot ecosystem is very big. And so there were a lot of users out there. 02:38 And I really kind of built our own demand through posting on social and stuff, but I guess we were capturing demand from what was existing with HubSpot users. 02:45 But, you know, at the time, like, all bound was not a thing really. Like, yeah, early you had HubSpot solutions partners and stuff, just ripping on cold email or the idea of doing anything that wasn't like 100% your vanilla inbound funnel. 03:01 Um, so you know, quite a few people like discouraged me from building it and said like, oh, this isn't a good idea or the sequencers are going to build it or this isn't really what house spots for. 03:11 Um, but I don't know. I just had enough people that wanted it that I thought it might be a good idea. 03:15 You did the opposite. You built a successful agency and then you're like, oh shoot. Like. People have this need even though other partners are saying they don't. 03:24 I mean, I go make this for my clients, then your clients are like, yes, give me more of this and you just went all in. 03:29 And you're like, I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I mean, sweet. I mean, yeah, I mean, just like real talk here, we signed 25 clay and growth agencies as partners before we signed one HubSpot partner as a partner. 03:43 What? For our product. Yeah. That's insane. Well, I mean, so for two years, I've been kind of talking about this. 03:50 And I mean, nobody was ever like mean to me about it. But they were just like, yeah, no, this isn't it. 03:55 And maybe the time wasn't right. Maybe the product wasn't ready. Maybe I was doing a bad job explaining it. I don't know. 03:59 I'm not saying like, I'm just saying like, what happened, you know? So, so it was definitely hard. I mean, and I will say like, I mean, it was a small, we were tier, so we were a gold tier agency. 04:08 We almost got diamond. We were like literally 30 points away from diamond. But I liked it. I had some really people on my team. 04:14 It just felt like, oh man, it just felt like this pole of the market. I mean, to be honest with you, the agency was reasonably successful and it was fun. 04:22 Um, but I was having more interesting calls on the app side. Like bigger companies, more sophisticated teams were like, hey, tell us tell me about this. 04:33 And I feel like I was running above average, but like really, like if you look at the partner directory to get tier, like not a lot of partners get that far. 04:41 So it was above average agency, but But it still felt like what we were doing on the app side was really more exceptional. 04:48 It was just more like while there were a lot of like, I don't want to say haters or but there were skeptics. 04:53 There were enough people that were like, hey, actually tell me more about that. I mean, just to give an example, like literally our biggest customer today, um, he explicitly told me that he's like, you should not start this. 05:04 Eric knows lots of you. Yeah, we love about it all the time. Yeah, Eric knows lots of you growth engine X who's he's an amazing growth hacker. 05:11 He's helped a lot of teams. He's helped clay. He, I mean, we laughed about it, but he literally explicitly was like, this is just not a good idea. 05:18 I don't think I wouldn't be a customer. And, uh, and now he's actually our biggest customer and we're working with him on tons of projects. 05:24 Uh, tons of his clients use our, our product to, to get revenue attribution and activities thinking and, and get reps, um, visibility for, so it's pretty funny. 05:32 It's pretty funny. It's, it's, it's been a fun journey. That is funny. I got a comment and then another question. 05:38 So I want, I want to dig into this a little bit more. My comment is, It's very funny that you mentioned like outbound was a bad word because like even at HubSpot, um, I worked there for like almost three years and we were doing outbound because our inbound funnel starts slowing down a lot. 05:56 That just hit home when you're like, everybody told me it's a bad idea and like they weren't gonna do it yet. 06:01 Freaking HubSpot's been doing it forever or so. Totally. And you know, for sure, I mean, I've said that the same exact thing to people before. 06:10 It's like HubSpot actually has a great sales team. And like a big sales team. And, um, oh, I don't know. 06:15 Look at their stock price for the last 15 years. They seem to be doing a pretty good job hitting their numbers. 06:21 Um, and I don't think that's entirely because of ebooks or whatever, you know, like they have. Has actually in my opinion an exceptional sales organization and like working with Jake in the, you know, as my CAM. 06:32 I know the change that I'm CAMs anymore, but you know, you saw that. And they did a great job supporting you and figuring out, I know that partners sometimes like want more help or whatever, but I think I felt like a way out of a ton of support. 06:43 I was really grateful for the program. I feel like, I mean, I was like, why are you like helping me so much? 06:48 This is crazy. Like, you know, um, so I'm super grateful for it for what it was. Um, and I think that now being on the out partner side, I think there's a lot of room for growth, I should say, um, with the app marketplace and the app ecosystem and I'm seeing how it's about to do more and more there. 07:06 And I think that like for us, we've got now like the UI elements to plug into. We've got like workflow actions. 07:12 There's a lot of things that we can do to surface our product inside of HubSpot more that, um, that we're thinking about now that I think we have a pretty good foundation in terms of how we're writing to the existing standard data model of like contact object, company object, doing associations, logging 07:27 activities, timeline events. I feel like we're doing kind of like the, like a good foundation. But I think that from here, there's a lot more we can do. 07:32 Yeah. I mean, this actually was my next question, so that's literally perfect. I want to understand, because like, even though we've worked together, like, you're our client of ours, like, I want to understand, like, what gap are you feeling? 07:46 And like, if I'm a HubSpot customer, like, what problem are you solving for me? Like, who is the person? If I'm like, hey, I struggle with X. 07:58 Like, who would that be where it's like, hey, this is a home run? You should have talked to me yesterday. 08:03 Yeah, totally. So I would say like, our product is not for everybody. It's definitely a niche app. I think that's part of why we've had success is because it's easy to understand what we do and either you're in or you're out and like, no worries if it's not a fit, right? 08:17 Um, so our typical user on the hotspot side, they are in one of a couple of places. There's a concept we're kind of building out called like the outbound maturity model, wrap up maturity curve, but they're potentially not doing any outbound. 08:31 And when I say outbound, I just mean like, You are proactively starting conversations with people, who maybe weren't expecting to hear from you. 08:38 Like, it could be a cold email, it could be a phone call, it could be door to door. Like, you know, the point is just like, you've got salespeople that are on like, um, taking initiative to like start things, you know, and uh, it's not just like purely marketing is generating content through the website 08:53 and through social or whatever, and then that's getting fed to reps to reply, close and move on. And, uh, maybe they're doing not at all, maybe they're doing some with sequences in sales hub, but kind of like, there's a point where they start to like misuse sales hub and they start sending like a lot 09:06 of emails out of it, which it's, yeah, not, it's not built for, um, it's not the point of it. Um, and so then they eventually look at other sequencing and sending tools. 09:15 And so we support getting data from, uh, Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison. Getting data from those tools into HubSpot. And the problem that we're solving, so, you know, first the thing is like, hey, deliverability or just like more volume that I want to be hitting, um, potentially like using some of the 09:34 features that are like around like AI for sequencing and things like that, that some of these tools have built out pretty nicely or built in contact databases or built in email validation, something like that. 09:44 Then once they they're accomplishing that, then they want the data back in HubSpot. And once it's in HubSpot, Like, there's two jobs to be done. 09:50 The first job is like, get the data in there from a, written to a consistent set of like objects and properties with a consistent set of associations so that it's like clean and hub spotty. 10:01 But then once it's in, that's done. Then the question is like, what do I do with it? And that's where super it comes in for us because we have packages for lists, workflows, and reports, and like rolled up into a dashboard. 10:12 And so we help them do revenue attribution, funnel tracking, like managing lead follow up. Stuff like that with the outbound data and super helps us do that and so we're on like the first the fourth version of our Outbound dashboard That and like so basically each new version of it We kind of tweak the 10:32 charts add some more and the idea is like you've got all this outbound data in there But like now you want to see like which campaigns are specifically attributed to revenue or you know If you're using multiple sequencers which sequencers may be outperforming the other one when it comes to generating 10:45 replies or something like that Okay, so essentially, if I'm going to boil it down to like a run on sentence, yeah, something I could do in the sentence. 10:54 Um, like the gap you're filling in the market is, hey, I'm either heavy in the outbound and I'm in HubSpot and I'm using a certain tech stack for it or I'm dabbling in outbound and I'm starting to break HubSpot because it's not designed necessarily for outbound. 11:11 That's when people should start thinking like, hey, I should probably talk to outbound sync. And maybe like get introduced to one of the partners in their network since I'm assuming you probably have like a list of partners that can help them. 11:23 Yep. What's step beyond because like what I didn't realize is I knew y'all did the data side. I didn't realize you also helped them have a reporting structure. 11:33 So that way they could know like what actually works. And more importantly, if you are working for a partner, they know what the heck works so they can actually. 11:42 Yeah, definitely. I mean, so that's where like. That's that that's we're being able to provide the package just comes in. 11:49 I mean, we use HubSpot, so we have a knowledge base and we have tickets and stuff like that, but I mean getting it just plunked right into your portal is There's nothing like that. 11:59 I mean, because right away, as soon as you start sending, the data is going to start filling in and you can track your sending volume and you can basically manage your outbound function inside of HubSpot, even though everything isn't happening inside of HubSpot. 12:11 Um, and it actually gives you a super compliant way to do outbound with HubSpot. Because with Outbound Sync, you can also require that like a contact has like been marked as interested before they even get synced in at all. 12:22 And then you can also have block lists from HubSpot pushing back out to the Outbound tool. So you can like have Um, like a universal block list. 12:30 So if you have like a subscription type where it's like, hey, never email this person again. Yeah. You can then push that we have a, um, uh, like workflow that supports that, which we package is super. 12:41 You can then push that block also to the up on tool. So, you know, I think in a sense, it allows outbound it in a way that's like very aligned with how, um, How HubSpot has grown to date. 12:53 It's it's definitely not just like spam spam your TAM kind of thing. You know, I mean, and we built some I think power user features to allow companies to have a lot of granular control over like what goes in, what goes out, how it gets, um, how it's managed. 13:08 Nice. That's cool. I didn't know any of this. So I'm going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's like a data thing. 13:14 So yeah, well, and you know, we're also like. It's essentially the connective tissue of how do you actually effectively do outbound in HubSpot if you have this certain tech stack? 13:25 Definitely. Well, and then if you start talking about like, hey, I'm running paid ads, and I want to run outbound, but I also want to trigger a social campaign, and I want to run that through HubSpot, we can enable that. 13:35 And I want my reps to pick up the phone and do a call, and I'm using like, I've got a HubSpot number hooked up to my phone, and I've got an inbound, or like an outbound lead that comes in that are interested, but they didn't respond to my email. 13:45 Well, I can, I can do my calling action from inside of HubSpot and I can get in touch in there or if I've got like, uh, sales navigator integrated. 13:52 You know, so it allows you to like basically do on each channel stuff too. But I mean, we're starting to work with some really excellent HubSpot partners, although it has like, I think, I think we were a little early. 14:02 We have some really incredible HubSpot partners coming on board. Um, all three of them also use Superd, just by which you didn't know that, but just by the way. 14:09 I didn't know that anything. Yeah. So we'll be, uh, we'll be working with them to build Versions of the op-ons and packages for them with their own sort of process and other sort of secret sauce that they've built into how they're using Supered for their clients. 14:25 Sweet. That was actually the last thing I wanted to hit on. You're really good at just like guiding me into where I want to go. 14:31 I love it. We didn't, we didn't prep. There were no notes. I know. That's why I'm like, this is working way better than I thought it was going through. 14:38 Um, so what I always like to figure out at the end of these are like This is mostly for my own edification because I'm just like curious about partner because that's why I grew up in HubSpot was like being a PDM. 14:49 Um, how are you thinking of like as an app? How are you thinking of partnering with HubSpot partners? Is that a priority? 14:58 Who's a good fit? How can this help them grow their agency? Like, I know that's a lot of questions like a break it down more. 15:05 Um, but maybe let's start there. Like how are you thinking of partnering with HubSpot partners as an app partner? And we'll kind of go from there. 15:13 Yeah, so I mean, I think that probably in the long run, I don't know how many HubSpot partners will be a fit to use our app. 15:20 Um, I suspect not a lot, but it doesn't need to be a lot. We really. They need to be wanting to run all-bound plays that, you know, the partners that we're working with right now, like they have hired either internally or through contractors, people that understand play. 15:40 That understand how to like spin up infrastructure to do outreach. And, and a lot of times they're helping clients who have salespeople and they want to keep those salespeople busy and they just want those salespeople doing better work. 15:50 And like not everyone is like that in the HubSpot ecosystem. Some of them are more focused on like the CMS side and web dev. 15:56 Some of them are more marketing and, you know, running, running paid advertising campaigns for people and not really touching sales hub. 16:03 So, you know, it just depends on, um, I'm on the partner, the makeup of the partner, but of the of the fraction or percentage of partners that are interested in kind of this go-to-market wave. 16:18 I guess you could say that's that's happening right now. Um, for them, I would say, like, definitely that one think could help them because you know, the problem structurally is like, you've got these outreach tools, but their funnel stops like halfway through the funnel because it's like, okay, I reached 16:35 out, they replied, they're interested. Cool. Like, they're There's still like you still have to get them from an instant reply to like You know convert them from the lead object or whatever or you just convert them to like opportunity And then you have to have the deal and the deal has to close like 16:48 there's so many so so many things that have to happen after that and so we're grafting one data model from these up on tools to this much richer data model of HubSpot. 16:59 And so there's so much room for an agency to get in there and add value. You know, all these layers of like, hey, we're going to enrich phone numbers and then we're going to run this kind of reporting. 17:06 And then we're actually going to help your team like develop a playbook that they can fill out inside of the CRM and, oh, you know, we're going to use, you know, sales rooms, you know, or something like that. 17:15 We're going to use a call recorder. You should get those transcripts. There's so many little things that you could do to improve. 17:20 The performance of that and so I don't think we push a lot in but I think that fundamentally if partners are focused on helping their customers like specifically drive revenue and that app on's part of that then I think that potentially were a fit for them. 17:32 Yeah, I'd almost disagree with you and say like, I think this is where the market's going. I mean, I hope so. 17:41 When you look at legacy HubSpot partners, what did they do? They did inbound, which means Marketing, blogs, content, websites, yada, yada, yada. 17:51 If you look at today of like, who's tearing the fastest? Who's coming in the ecosystem and making waves and like actually making an impact very quickly? 18:02 Like, I usually see, it's either an X Salesforce partner or a current Salesforce partner. That's one thing that I do see happening already. 18:09 The other one is like, they are a sales focused or like Revops, but with the sales bias focus agency that comes in and helps you build out your sales team and like get your sales team results. 18:23 Yeah. And guess what? It's easier to get budget from sales team because they have more freaking budget. It's like if I was an agency owner, I'd actually disagree with you and be like, you're insane if you're not looking into tools like this because it's not if you're gonna have to learn this side of 18:38 the business. It's when and did I learn it quick enough to not get left behind? Like, that's my honest opinion. 18:45 I mean, I, I mean, I hope so. I mean, to me, the whole like revops thing, I feel like a lot of people, I'm not trying to be mean to anybody, but the first word of that is revenue. 18:55 That's my point. It's not paying you unless you could use revenue. How do you use revenue? No company that I've ever worked at. 19:04 Well, caveat, like HubSpot kind of had it. Like nobody really has a good outbound system. Like, I or now, like they need an expert to come in. 19:12 And most of them can't go get budget to hire, like, a team of four people internally, be like, hey, you're the clay person and list building person. 19:21 You're the integration and data person. You're the strategy and, like, hoppy person. Like, they can't freaking hire four people for something they don't know that's gonna work, but they can go spend 5, 10, 15 grand a month with an agency. 19:33 Maybe even 20 grand a month with an agency and go test outbound and see if it works for them. Yeah. 19:38 I mean, argue with you and be like, if you're not doing this now, like, You should probably go talk to Harris and figure out like, how do I get into this market? 19:46 How can I use your app to like help me do this and how can I get ahead of the curve? 19:50 Um, but then again, maybe I'm insane. So maybe, maybe, maybe, I don't know. I mean, I'm bullish on agencies in general. 19:57 I've seen like, they add a lot of value. Yes. Um, they add a lot of value. And I think that when they can do that in a way that's repeatable. 20:07 You know, and that's where I think like a lot of the super stuff comes in. Is it where it's like they can lower their marginal cost for delivery and they can standardize their process and they can say, Hey, here's our playbook. 20:15 Here's how we're going to deploy this. Then I think that business model gets even better, um, because it's not as expensive to deliver because you're not doing it from scratch every time. 20:25 Instead, you're saying, okay, 80% template, 20%. This is where we really do our magic. That's I think that I think that it's possible. 20:31 I think it's possible. I think it's a change in mindset. Um, I think from where HubSpot has Like, like, immunity has been. 20:40 Actually, this is maybe my hottest take of all. I actually think from a product perspective, HubSpot is ahead on this of an outbound. 20:49 Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think when you look at like the workspace, the prospecting workspace, I think they renamed it to something else, the sales workspace now or something like that. 20:56 But like, yeah. And then they have the all bound timeline now, you know, where it shows like up on an inbound event. 21:02 I actually think from a product perspective that HubSpot is ahead and they're Pushing the ball forward, um, in ways that I think that I think that the community will follow. 21:13 Um, I have a lot of faith in HubSpot from a product perspective. I'm a product person in the end of the day. 21:18 I think product wins a long run. And I think I have a lot of faith in the product team. Um, and I do, I do feel like they are, they're putting things in there that maybe people don't notice, but when you start seeing it come together, you're like, okay, so I was like pretty legit now actually. 21:35 Um, So, anyway, we'll see. Nah, I 100% agree. Cause like, I haven't been the ecosystem out long. It's been three and a half, four years. 21:45 But it sales hub, like when I first started selling at HubSpot through partners, like you couldn't really sell a sales hub. 21:51 This is where it was over 100 users. Now I talk to solutions engineers. I'm actually talking to the whole team later next week on this. 21:58 But like, they're selling like 300, 500 to 1000 seat deals now. And like it's not mind blowing anymore. Like three years ago, if you had a thousand seat sales hub deal, people would be like, have you tricked them into buying that? 22:13 And now it's like, oh, that's a big deal. Congrats, man. Yeah. Or lady or whoever you are. So I completely agree. 22:20 Like the speed at which they ship and like the way they prioritize road map, like I could see that. I just haven't used any other system in four years. 22:28 So totally. So. Uh, I know we're going along here, so what I want to wrap up on is like, if I'm a partner, or if I am like a user of HubSpot, and I just want to like figure out like, hey, I'm thinking about getting an outbound, or I think I want to get into consulting an outbound, like, do you want them 22:49 to reach out to you? How do they get a hold of you? Like, how can you help them if you do that? 22:54 I have no ideas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah. I mean, find me on social. I post about this stuff all the time. 22:59 I mean, I'm always happy to chat with folks, for sure. I mean, I would say the thing that's happening with Apple now is like, it's, it's open. 23:04 You know, like, I mean, you can just go, like, make a clay account, start playing around there, check out Smartlead, or instantly, or EmailBison, check out these sequencing tools. 23:12 Um, give me a follow and social. Um, I can also recommend some people to follow, like Eric Nowoslawski posts very good videos on YouTube, for example. 23:20 Um, you know, just kind of jump in and see. Thanks for turning in a better together. Hope you found some new ways to become better together with HubSpot app partners. 23:29 Catch you on the next one.

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep5: Growth Hacking to Sustainable Strategies

Fri, 14 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this episode of GTM Crossroads, hosts Rob Jones, Zach Vibidor, and Harris Kenny talk about how growth strategies are evolving. A few hot topics include the role of transparency in leadership, personalization vs. humanization in marketing, storytelling in sales, and the how the buyer's journey is changing for buyers and sellers. The conversation also touches on predictions for the future of sales. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). This guest host episode features Rob Jones (Creative Lead, RevPartners). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Rob Jones (00:02.099) What's up? This is, I'm Brendan Tolleson today and we're GTM Crossroads with Zach and Harris. How are y'all, man? Zach (00:08.942) Good man, good to see you in the flesh. It's been a slack relationship up until now, so I'm Rob Jones (00:16.467) Yeah, we were slacking too much. So I decided to bring the noise with the orange suit. I just got this neon thing, which I think is pretty cool. yeah, I'm not sure how Brendan has has done a great job. He's hosted two or three or four podcasts now. getting into this, I know we were talking before the recording about kind of the meta conversation on what is GTM Crossroads? Why is there a need for it? What does that mean? It immediately for me growing up in the South evokes images of Robert Johnson and the Devil and Blues. So there's some stuff there, but if either one of you wants to kind of, you know, lean into that and start talking about why we even thought this podcast, there was a need for it in the first place, it'd be a good place to start. Harris Kenny (00:59.714) Yeah, I'm happy to jump in here. We've done a few episodes and I think that, you know, there's this like everybody knows that the way, especially on the growth side, things weren't working. And I think that even applied on the inbound side. Two years ago at inbound, you still had some partners being like, well, we're gonna do an ebook a month. And you're like, yeah, but nobody's reading them, right? And you know that. And I know that, and everybody knows that. things have really changed a little bit and it felt like there was room to have a conversation about, it's tactical of like, okay, but like what specifically is different? It felt like there was like, from my perspective, there's this like gap between these like deep clay loom, you know, recorded videos of someone showing this crazy engineering wizardry stuff. And then like these actual conversations with leadership at these growth teams where they're like, look, I know we're landing in spam. I know we're paying a lot of money for all this. I'm not sure exactly what we're supposed to do next. And so it felt like there was room to talk about bridging that gap between the of the growth hacking movement and as it's now that it's kind of growing up and we're seeing these mid-market companies adopting these tactics and then now there's like more tooling and things like that kind of filling in these gaps. that to me was, and I think that's like, I think that's going to be true for a while. I think for a couple of years, I mean, we, still talk to companies that are really, really, really early in this process where they're just like, I think our reps are landing in spam. And so they're kind of, you know, two years. behind the market sort of thing. So that to me was the why, why it's needed. What do think, Zach? Zach (02:41.978) I agree with that. think there's like another interesting kind of undercurrent to all of this is like the, you know, the old playbook, if you will, like the old playbook was written like when things were progressing and evolving in like a pretty linear fashion and you have these product development cycles and these 12 and 24 month roadmaps. And like, I think another big thing that's changed is like, All that is out the window. If you have a three month roadmap that you can stick to, you are now Nostradamus. Things with the products are changing so fast. new competitors and like the markets are evolving so quickly that it just like this old like, hey, let's, you know, let's get together and kick off and like put together the story and then go build like a content marketing calendar around that. Like it's, just feels almost impossible. It's like you have to kind of almost live everything. close to real time and like that is now just going like, all right, like now in that world, like what does my stack look like when I have to be so much more responsive and quicker and nimble and like it just, I think that's like another thing that's just like the shifting sand underneath all this is just like the product, I guess the like, how dynamic like product development and like the markets are is like causing a lot of this just like, all right, we need to reinvent the wheel of it. Harris Kenny (04:09.08) Mm-hmm. Rob Jones (04:10.023) Yeah, I mean that kind of leads into a prompt that I had to discuss. So really good segue. You mentioned Harris said growth hacking seems that it has been hacked or it was hacked so much that it's now somewhat broken. I know that everything is apparently dead now, but there's there's also growth sustaining. I don't know if that can be hacked as well. So the concept is is or the question I have is how do you adapt strategies? as quickly as possible while retaining kind of a narrative or vision or overall value for customers. When you just said everything changes seemingly on the week, you know, weekly, there's a lot of, it seems like there's a lot of tools, a lot of best practices that are kind of like kale, right? Kale is a really fun example because apparently, and I'm not a doctor or anything, but it's like, it's not as good for you at all as they used to say. How do you, how do you adapt and change and remain agile? to keep up with all of the change that's happening. Harris Kenny (05:14.29) I think there's and I can take some notes from you in terms of like the transparency even just like down to your personal story. But to me, there's like two stories happening right now. You have the social highlight reel. It's all wins. It's like watching ESPN top 10 plays of the week. But then you have actual WhatsApp conversations and Slack DMs where people are really talking about. There's a lot of things aren't working. And to me, that's where all the learning is happening and where all this like hyper iteration is happening is when people can find a space sort of semi private where they feel comfortable saying, like, you know, in a previous episode, we talked about intent data and I was like, I tried it for nine months and I ripped out both of the tools, you know, and I posted about intent data, I put about social and somebody was like, Hey, this is, know, you got to use it the right way. And I was like, how, how, how, how are you using it? And I didn't get any response back. And I'm like, I want to know, you know, I want to, I want to use the tool. I want to make, I want to make money. Show me show me and and so I think that I think that that's like a piece of this of the conversation that That I hopefully we can do I think we have I think a good openness in the dialogue here in general Where we could talk about stuff that's not working because it's just it's just too much like one or the other either It's like you said everything is dead, right? Either it's dead or like I'm crushing it and we just printed like ten meetings in the last hour And there's just like new want new to me. The only thing that's dead is nuance I feel like nuances get dead and now it's like everyone's just trying to hack social. Zach (06:39.674) Yeah. Rob Jones (06:42.569) Yeah, if I wouldn't be off frame, I would have stood up and given you a standing ovation for that. That's really on point. I guess kind of the follow-up question for Zach is specifically to social and being able to ask, are there any other places for that where it's okay as a leader, a CEO, a founder, a thought leader, a guru, whatever you want to call them, to show need? Zach (06:47.578) Ha ha. Rob Jones (07:09.895) I feel like that's a barrier at times to those honest conversations, specifically publicly, because if you come out and say, we're really struggling with this right now, that reflects poorly on not only yourself, but the brand that you represent. Zach (07:13.198) Yeah. Zach (07:22.552) Yeah, I mean, I think, I guess a couple thoughts. think one is like, I think there has been this rise of like community, know, like lots of companies are building community and there's, you know, independent communities developing around different functions and it could be sales or it could be, you know, Lenny's podcast around like product management that's like blowing up and like he's built this incredible audience and like, I think it's really built around like these like super honest, authentic conversations. It feels like, think, again, nuance. I think people are starting to appreciate some of the nuance more of people saying, yeah, here's what's working, here's what's great, here's what's not. This is effing hard and we're all dealing with it. And when you own that, I think you get to be a voice that them people go to and trust a bit more. And so I think there's... less need than maybe in the past to be like, hey, everything's roses and sunshine. I think people respond to the more authentic, yeah, we're growing, but startups are hard. Half this stuff is broken, it's gonna break again. I'm gonna make a ton of mistakes. I'm gonna make a thousand mistakes, I need to be right about five. I think people respond to that. They feel that, because we all know that's the truth. I might have lost the thread on your question a little bit. Rob Jones (08:53.297) No, you were hitting it pretty well because the nuance is dead. I'm going to steal that immediately, so hopefully you haven't trademarked it yet. that seems like the only thing that's either lost or incomplete or dead or whatnot is you mentioned intent data earlier. I had two things, I scrapped them both, and somebody said you weren't using it the right way in this specific situation. with that, there's an element of Harris Kenny (09:00.448) You Rob Jones (09:22.087) being open, being vulnerable, and I'm trying to get to a word, the P word, personalization. With AI and with everything else that kind of does stuff for you, I wanted to ask both of you who are pretty close to this, is there a difference in personalization and humanization? And how would you incorporate context into that? Even further as my tagline, which now I'm jealous because you gave me one, but if it's a token, it's broken. is like if there's an infographic or demographic or whatever component to it and you can use a token to insert it, that's per to me, that's personalization. what I could ask both of you, is there a difference? What does it look like? Like how do you break through now the personalization buzzword to create those connections that, you know, facilitate the growth of communities to facilitate actual change in conversation. We'll go Zach first and can keep the, can re, I can re ask in a much shorter way. Zach (10:14.106) Alright. Zach (10:18.01) yeah, there is a different, I think for a long time, personalization became equated with, yeah, to your point, I got a variable token, let me go find a bit of data and plug it in. And there wasn't this like, all right, does that really make sense here? It was like being used as this like proof of work of like, I can go acquire data, I can stuff it into a template and it's. ostensibly about you, but like, I don't think that cuts it anymore. And I think there's like, and even in like, I guess we'll call it like gen one of AI, it started to become really easy to be like, all right, let me scrape social for the last post. that you've posted about anything. And then I'm going to like glue my value prop onto that. So I'm going to, I'm going to graft onto that and like call that personalization. And it's like, we've all seen this stuff and you're like, you're repulsed by it. You know, it's like, it's like, it's worse than just like a here's the offer. I can save you 40%. You want to meet, you know, it's like that becomes better in that world. So I think it's like, and I think people have like cooled on that pretty quick. They realize it doesn't work because it feels to your point, like it feels in service of trying to it becomes inhuman. You know, you're like, no one talks like that. Like no one thinks like that. And so I think, you know, personalization is like, it's this blend of like, how do I be relevant and resonant at the same time? And like, that doesn't always take me knowing. Rob, what you do, where you went to school. But you know, like that doesn't necessarily take that. can take, I can have this tapestry of like your job, your responsibilities, the type of company you're at. And like I can graft on like a pretty strong, like a hypothesis is kind of like the spinal column of like, where do relevance and resonance like combine? How can I tell a story that like has a hypothesis, has a perspective, like has some, some. Zach (12:24.952) tooth to it. Like I think that's like where people are going and people respond to, know, and it's not about Did a person write this? And I think we talked about this in another episode. Like for us, like we talk a lot about like, I don't think people care if a human or AI wrote something to be honest. I think they just go like, you have my attention for eight seconds. Is this written for, what was this meant for me or not? And like, that's the goal is like, you just want people to feel like, no, this wasn't a mistake. You know, like I know who you are. I know what we do. Here's my take on like where we intersect. you up for it? You know, like that's kind of the gold standard. And then it's not a mystery. It's not a riddle. And then people figure out, yeah, I want to chat or hey, now I guess what? Like that brand is now logged in my brain and they'll ping me eight more times and I'll respond to one of them, you know? Rob Jones (13:18.609) Yeah, that's great. Harris Kenny (13:19.763) Yeah, yeah, it's like why now, right? Why now? Why me? Why now? I mean, I feel like those are kind of the two things. I do think that what I'm starting to see, in my opinion, that like, think a little bit of, there's sort of this like, became this normal way of communicating ways of writing sentences, ways of acting on social, and I feel like because AI is trained on that, that to stand out is to to not do that. And so I'm finding myself getting more unhinged in the comments on social. And not being profane or inappropriate, but if you've ever replaced a door, unhinged is one of my favorite terms, because I feel like it's like an automata. I don't know the right way to describe it, but when something is unhinged, when a door is unhinged, it's really unwieldy, right? And so I'm having fun using exclamation points, using all caps, using weird inside jokes. and just like really being a person. And I find the same thing is happening sort of on calls and stuff like that. I'm trying to just be myself more and not be this like what I felt like pressure before to be, you you kind of want to fit in, but now it's like, oh, everybody's fitting in. Everybody's like kind of talking the same way and writing emails the same way. And your brain is just like, tunes it out, I feel like. And so I think by being, you know, I started posting more memes, but to me, you're the OG of this, I mean, with the mayor of inbound thing. Zach (14:40.58) Really? Harris Kenny (14:47.842) You know, I to me you did this before it was cool in the CRM space. I mean maybe somebody else was doing it for waffle irons or in some other category in some other space, but nobody was doing it for CRM. So to me Rob, like you get the credit for that, because I feel like it was pretty, I don't know, you've just been funny and yourself and personal and talking about stories, and to me that like is incredibly resonant. So I don't know, that's kind of where my head's at on this topic. Rob Jones (15:14.409) The mayor of inbound thing was a joke that backfired and is now three years and running. I walked into the inbound conference, long, long story short, to detract or I guess distract from the very, to me, obvious fact that I did not know very much about HubSpot. I'd only been at Red Partners for six or seven months. I was like, yeah, I'm going to need to wear something or have a icebreaker conversation piece. So yeah, the unhinged part, feel... Harris Kenny (15:19.192) Hahaha Rob Jones (15:41.885) It's almost the beauty of being ignorant and also very curious. A lot of that is just kind of who I am. You said earlier nuance is dead if anything is. I also think that formality as soon as you are exposed to something is kind of maybe it's not dead but it's dying. I don't think it's as requisite as it used to be. There's this concept of you mentioned becoming numb to something. Habituation is that but it's more than just I think the most The best example is spraying on cologne or perfume. It's awesome for a minute and then you forget you even have it, but somebody else gets near you and they immediately can kind of pick that up. That's how a bit tuition and it's happening with copy with, you know, different tactics to where a week ago, a year ago, five years ago, they really kind of helped you to stand out and get noticed and they don't anymore because everybody is trying to get on this train of like, what's the next thing? How should I act? How should I write? How should I type interact? Um, Zach (16:17.911) Yeah. Harris Kenny (16:19.372) Hmm Rob Jones (16:39.581) I'm going to transition very ungracefully to what we talked about before we started recording in that we talked about the need for GTM Crossroads as a way to talk about this and unearth some of the things in a closed setting and be more, I'm not going to say unhinged necessarily, unless we need it today, but just more open about not only the successes and challenges, but the state of the market. Zach (16:42.532) Here we go. Rob Jones (17:06.267) And one of the things that we've talked about here already today is like kind of this evolution of the buyer and trust. Like we know that people are spending less time in a, in a sales cycle because they're doing their own education. The buyer's journey is, you know, stats kind of vary, but it's like 70 to 85 % done by the time somebody reaches out to sales. How has that changed and why? Like some of the answers I feel like are more obvious with AI and tech and the internet candidly, but What is the buyer changing and kind of the trust factor? What does that look like in reality? What does that feel like to you guys? Zach (17:45.274) Looks like you're cooking something good Harris, I'll let you go. Harris Kenny (17:47.694) I'm just thinking I mean I've been like focusing more on storytelling to me it's like it's it's like it felt like it used to be more of You know people talk about like sales process and making them go through things and sign NDAs and sit through demos and it's people are just kind like okay like What what are you doing? Like what's the point? Why are we here? Do you do can you do you can do these couple of things? I have I mean so to me I'm trying to like again like split of like it's either a story or it's Rob Jones (17:48.124) Yeah, he's... Harris Kenny (18:18.008) just really unvarnished, like this is how the product works and let's get a little technical. And I'm trying to like not be in this middle of, know, of like, okay, like how are you communicating with me? I'm trying to move in that direction a little bit with how we think about these things. Cause like people remember stories and then in my opinion, and then they have technical questions. Can you do this? Do you have this feature? Can you support that? You know, in the HubSpot data model, like how are you doing associations? Like that's a question with an answer. I should give you that. But then tied to that, I want to... tell you a story about why we're here and why we started this. I mean, because to me, yeah, it's like, those are the things that people carry on. And then there's like digital tools, like sales rooms and stuff like that, where they can carry the data forward. But to me, that's like the selling process and has been my focus when I think about our own go-to-market and how we sell, how I sell. It's just me, so what do mean? I'm talking about me, because I do all our sales and all of our marketing. So if anything's bad, it's my fault. So that's where I've been. Zach (19:14.426) Yes. Harris Kenny (19:16.768) I attended a thing this morning on storytelling and I've been thinking about what is the story, why? Why are we here? What problem are we solving? Why should you talk to us? Why us versus make versus Zappier versus rolling it yourself versus building a chat GPT? What's the difference? So you have less time and so that time you have, you have to either be answering questions or telling a story is how I've been thinking about it lately. I'm curious what you guys think about that. Zach (19:43.694) I think the story point really resonates with me. It's funny for all what we were talking about before, of all the community and all these conversations are online and blah blah blah. I think another one of these, cold email is dead and it's like salespeople are dead too. There's this conventional wisdom almost that it's like everyone hates a sales process, everybody hates talking to sales. And it's like. Yeah, everyone hates being railroaded through a process that doesn't provide them any value, but... your point about storytelling and like there's all this community blah blah whatever out there. A lot of people are still detached from that and like people want to know like what are other people doing like what are other people like me doing? You know it's like I find that's like you know my my sales processes that go the best like it's like hey I'm curious about your business and they're curious about like what are you doing with other people? You know like why are people buying from you? What are they doing? How are they finding success? And like people do want that. Harris Kenny (20:30.99) Hmm. Harris Kenny (20:40.419) Mm. Zach (20:45.852) and like they're, the human being the storyteller for like the translation layer of like turning like all, like AI ain't gonna replace that anytime in our lifetime as far as I'm concerned, you know? And it's like that's what people seem to be really hungry for. And so I think the, you know, the modern sales process is more just like, yeah, how can you provide value? How can you provide, Yeah, trust I guess is implicit, but it's more just like, everybody knows there's like risk and... software's tough, shit's gonna break, it's not all gonna work, but tell me where it's gonna kinda fail and I will trust you a thousand times more. People just like, they want to have conversations like that in a honest sales process and then those people, the folks you get, where that works on both sides, that ends up being the best partnerships and your best customers and the people you grow with and you set the table for like, hey, we're changing too, we need feedback. like Yeah, I'm like in some ways it's like we're moving into this world of AI, but it's also like encouraging this like return to like, all right, when people are involved, like let's make the most of our time together and be real and useful and valuable. And like, it's a good forcing function for that as well, it becomes more, conversations have felt more meaningful in like the last year, I'd say, like then in the last 15 I've been selling for sure. When it was more just like, I'm a transactor of information. Harris Kenny (22:04.504) Mm-hmm. Zach (22:21.98) you Rob Jones (22:23.027) Yeah, I mean, two really good prompts came from listening to that. So shout out. One of them is, you know, I would like to hear some thoughts on yourself as a buyer, right? Like at this point, I feel like most people in a role where they could be a seller had either been a buyer themselves or have needed to. So there's this kind of concept of how, not only how are you a good sales person or how do you facilitate sales effectively, but how do you help sales being a good buyer that sets expectations upfront? And part of that, think, has been ruined by Amazon. Legitimately, the Amazon effect in B2B is like, if I want to change the neon, like order a custom RP brand neon sign, I can go to Amazon, type it in, it's at my doorstep later that day. That is not the same for B2B sales at all. But the expectation is there. Harris is about to start cooking again. Harris Kenny (23:12.92) No. Harris Kenny (23:16.597) my gosh my gosh dude i'm chomping at the bit we i mean we have i mean we have i was just Zach (23:19.236) you Harris Kenny (23:27.02) We work with growth agencies and growth hackers and there is like sometimes where they're like, look, like, you know, can you just have an API or whatever? Like we don't do, do we even need to talk during onboarding? can we just onboard our clients really quickly? And I'm like, no, you have to ask your customers how they want this data in their system. I'm sorry. Like there's no other way. We have to talk to the user about how they're using their system. Are they using a lead object or not? Do they want these kinds of associations or not? Do they want custom contact properties created or not? Do they want the workflows to be managed inside of HubSpot? Who manages the workflows? How are they gonna get notified of this? There's nuance, there's just nuance. We have to talk about it and the user has to tell us. There's just no way around it. You know, they have a business, they have a business process. This is an important system of record for them. And we just have to talk about how it's being done. There's no like quick prompt. There's no like VA we can hand this to. There's no API call I can create to substitute the fact that we have to have a conversation about how their business runs so that we can get them this data in the right way. And then we will potentially reveal problems. And that's kind of where like the RPs of the world come in. They're like, hey, like, by the way, like you don't have a sales process. We should do that. We should build that. But it's like, yeah, there's not a quick and easy answer. I can't just hallucinate an answer for them of like, we should do it like this. Like a GBT would be like, well, we should just write it to this record. It's like, no, they need to decide that. Well, can't you do it for us? like, no, I can't. There's no control. We're a software company. You can't just give me admin, super admin seat in one of your client's HuffBot accounts. And so, know, and it's not like coming from a bad place or malicious or anything, but I find myself genuinely like, I don't know how to talk about this. I'm not sure how to explain, but it's like the old medieval maps, like there's dragons over there. I don't know how else to say it, but like we have to talk about it. You know what I mean? Rob Jones (25:32.809) Yeah, that's I mean that's part of the context that's missing right is the nuance because there's so many I don't know if it's infinite But it it's it's one of those numbers with the e and the other you know exponent so many different variations for all the different possibilities of how they could be using it what the You know what the use case is what they do or don't have involved and so Zach I'll throw you this one that came out of this because I think it's Harris Kenny (25:43.852) Yeah. Rob Jones (25:59.611) Intended to give a reaction and I don't mean this any bad way if it gets clipped weird But I am starting to think more and more. Yeah, I'm setting myself up for failure here starting to think more and more that like this concept of the future of sales is marketing and the future of marketing is customer success and I mean that from the perspective of if people are educating themselves on their own time asynchronously and don't need you then you better make sure they're educated in the right way you have lots of You know content or whatever it is available to them Zach (26:04.506) side. you Harris Kenny (26:08.589) You Zach (26:29.38) Yeah. Rob Jones (26:29.649) In the same way, whenever you do go to Amazon or you do, you know, enter a buying process for whatever, don't you check reviews and social proof and all that first, or at least at some point to make sure of their context and like how it went, how they felt about it. So just throwing that out there, Zach, what do you think about that as a concept? Zach (26:49.658) I dig that. think that as a trend line, I'm totally behind. I will say, and kind of like, to tie in what Harris was saying a second ago, it's like, you'll get these questions and it's like, do you integrate with HubSpot? Do you integrate with Salesforce? And it's like. What does that even mean? It's so vast and it's like, do think there are, again, how do I say it in nice way? There are people who think they're informing themselves, but like. they're just scratching the surface. like, I guess you were asking a sec before this Rob, like as buyers, you know, it's like, I love a good sales process. Like when Harris was rattling off those questions, like, hey, who's gonna own this? What about the workflow? And like, when you go through a sales and like somebody's asking you good discovery questions and you're just like, man, like I have not, I haven't thought this through. Like they're helping me, you know? And it's like, that is the, I'm with you. Like we're definitely going towards like people that they've gotten themselves further down the track, but like I still think it's very diff, you know, if we're talking about anything of like magnitude has got some gravity. If you're buying a widget, make it easy as pie, you know, but like, if something has some like, we're gonna make an investment here. It's like, I think it's still pretty hard to get to those like next level things. And I think. you know, us as organizations selling, we got to make it easy and be accessible and transparent and provide lots of resources and lots of like, yeah, we hopefully can be your, you know, Sherpa in a really light, light touch manner to get somewhere. But then like the smart people that are going to make a bet, they know like, all right, I, don't know all the right questions to ask. And then how do you bring them into a process that feels not like a interrogation and a I'm doing Bant and MedPic on you, but like, Hey, let's Zach (28:44.404) Let's figure out if there's a fit here and here's some things you should go get the answers to yourself. I want to know them too so I can help, but you should figure this stuff out too. Harris Kenny (28:55.855) Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Hey, regardless of whether we work together or not, whether it's a fit or not, you should be thinking about this kind of thing. Yeah. Zach (29:01.882) Yeah. Rob Jones (29:02.995) Yeah. it's, mean, I started in sales, before RP. was in sales at RP and I'm not in any way saying sales is not needed. know some people are kind of moving there with like, AI can do your job for you. It's more to me specifically in software and in things that require more scoping is like the human in the loop is a, is a, it is there. I watched Chernobyl recently. So this is coming from that angle a little bit, but it's like, it's meant for, it's meant for like critical risk mitigation. Zach (29:22.127) Yeah. Zach (29:29.305) Ha ha ha. Rob Jones (29:32.925) So all of the lower touch things that can be like, eh, if there's a typo, there's something off here, it's not really necessary. The more critical risk, which would be, you know, Harris, you were talking about the integration question and like, there's a lot of stuff that goes into that. If they don't know or care, there's a ton more risk in doing it incorrectly. So the human or humans or pod, whatever the sales person and delivery for what we do has moved into the sales process. know Salesforce is kind of doing this. Harris Kenny (29:52.333) Yes. Rob Jones (30:02.089) same thing, which the one thing they've ever gotten right, is bringing SEs into AE roles because they know it's going to require that scoping and the word of the day, the nuance, the context that goes along with it. To me, it's an interesting observation that the more, almost the less time that you spend in sales process, so if the buyer's journey is 85, 90 % of the way done by the time they reach out. That last 10 % needs to be transformative or uncover something like really super specific that shows value. That to me, I don't know how that works with efficiency or like building the playbooks for that, but it requires a human to still be in that seat. Zach (30:36.953) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (30:49.966) Yeah. Can I ask you guys a question? Tell me what you think. I've been thinking about like forcing two calls during our sales process. I've been like, listen, during this first one, I'm going to ask you some questions and then I'll give you like a preview of the product. But in the second one, I'll give you a demo that shows you exactly what, and whatever. We can talk about pricing whenever you want. I can show you the product whenever I want. I'm not, I'm not trying to hide pricing or hide the demo, but like I need to ask you some questions. And then we need to have a second conversation where we talk about like specifically, I can show you how to do those things. Do you guys think that's a good idea or a bad idea or? Cause I find like in the one calls, like we don't have enough to like hook onto. Like it's just 30 minutes is not enough time. And then in my follow ups, feel like I'm like trying to like keep the ball rolling, but it feels like I don't have like stuff to hold onto, stuff to follow up on and be like, listen, like, are you willing to commit to two 30 minute calls with me? You know, and we can get on the calendar and you can cancel the second one or you can even leave this first one early if you really don't like me. But you know, what do you guys think about like asking for a little more upfront? Zach (31:24.036) Yeah. Zach (31:36.633) Yeah. Zach (31:45.39) Love it. Harris Kenny (31:45.646) Because I feel like the intuitive thing is like, like ask for less, shrink more, try to make it tighter, try to make it smaller. But it's like, what if it's the other way? What if you try to be more demanding? What do you think? Zach (31:54.49) I love it. think like thoughtful friction in a process, like thoughtful friction that doesn't feel like I'm deliberately trying to like torture us and like. fill out my manager's checklist for our sales process, but like, yeah, I'm asking for some commitment and some time, and it's gonna, if you're serious, this is what it takes, and like, great way to disqualify people too. If they can't sign up for a second 30 minutes, then guess what, this thing's got a pretty low probability of getting done anyways, so I think it's a good filter for that. we honestly, this isn't exactly what you're saying, like, Harris Kenny (32:26.509) Yeah. Zach (32:34.294) in our product as an example, like we have a self-serve kind of onboarding that'll get you some percent of the way. And like we have some questions in those that like we make you answer and like we honestly got like we see a ton of people drop off. Like it is friction and they got like, I'm done. I've spent my two minutes already. I'm not going to spend the last 30 seconds, but it's like, we know for the people that like they spend that last 30 seconds and like answer these two questions, we give them a way better output. and their first aha moment is gonna be that much better. So not exactly what you're saying, but I think there is that, the thoughtful friction, I'd say yes, and one. Rob Jones (33:14.473) I love the term thoughtful friction and I would plus one this just by equating it to the almost a triage mindset. It's like if you go to the doctor, whether it's for an emergency or preventative care, there is a nurse or a generalist that evaluates you first to see, your stomach hurt. They don't just write your prescription for Finnegan or whatever. You could have something far more serious or you could like that concept is requisite. I think it would help to DQ people that weren't serious buyers. And then the 30 minute second concept, obviously they can cancel or leave the first call early, but it really, it kind of validates their, how serious they are. It also serves to show the nuance that you're talking about. It's like explaining that briefly and well. 30 minutes is just to kind of get to know each other, figure out the use case. I am not going to interrogate you. Like this is won't be rapid fire, you know, you know, 50 questions in 30 minutes. Therefore. Harris Kenny (34:06.936) Mm-hmm. Rob Jones (34:12.627) so that I can present some of the stuff or show you how we would solve it. I'm asking for a second 30 minute call. Do that more concisely, but yeah, I love the concept. Harris Kenny (34:21.134) Yeah. Okay. Yeah, because it's hard because like founder led, it's messy. And I'm so used to like doing whatever like what's the price? Well, what do you need the price to be? I can change the price. I can I can change the features. I can make engineering finish this. And it's like, we're growing now. We've got some mojo. It's like, got to get out of that. So feel like I need to I'm the one who actually needs to be restrained. And I need to sell like I were a salesperson. Because if I tried to hire somebody to do whatever the hell it is that I'm doing, when it comes to selling, they would fail spectacularly. Zach (34:45.882) Thank Harris Kenny (34:49.068) because like how, you know, it's not a job, it's just like a improv. You know, I'm just like making it up. And so I feel like I've got to get myself out of that and then ask more of them and then force them to like, be like, listen, like we're gonna have to get into the details here. There's no other way for us to, for me to make, to me to promise you that we can help you succeed than if we get talk about it. Yeah. Rob Jones (35:09.597) Yeah, I mean, do you want this to be successful? Yes or no? If yes, then I cannot provide the level of care that I expect from myself and our business without doing another 30 minute call. Yeah, somebody was about to jump in, I think. Harris Kenny (35:15.693) Yeah. Harris Kenny (35:20.054) Yeah. Yeah. Zach (35:23.68) no, I think that Rob Jones (35:25.257) Could have been the FedEx Harris Kenny (35:27.565) I mean, I feel like a SaaS company maybe wouldn't normally do that, right? Cause we're a software company. I feel like maybe a services company would be more obvious to do that. But it's like, if we want to keep churn down, I don't know. I mean, that 30 minute, that second 30 minute call, if it saves our CSM like four hours, kind of worth it, right? Zach (35:42.266) Totally. Rob Jones (35:42.665) I was leaning in this direction. I know we have only a couple of minutes left, but there's two. I'll address this quickly and then give Brendan the handoff for an excellent episode next week if he comes back. But it's like, how do you position stuff in marketing and sales to almost prepare the customers for retention and expansion? I think you guys both know the math of it's more valuable, it's cheaper to keep a customer, it's more valuable to upgrade and expand into accounts. So there's that. We've talked about past today, we've talked about present current state. We haven't talked about the future much. So as kind of a fun sign off, I'd like to introduce a new segment called Nostradamus or Nostra dumbass. Give me a prediction on trends that we'll see in the next six months or this year. Zach (36:31.715) Anything we talk in sales. Rob Jones (36:33.905) Yeah, it could be buyers, could be sales, could be demand or demand generation or brand, anything that we haven't talked about yet. I feel like both of you have been sitting on some stuff and cooking, so this is your chance to make a bold prediction. Zach (36:46.68) I'll go short and sweet and I don't think this is too unique of a thought, but I think brand is coming back. I think there's been a over-reliance on tech and process and everything is a science experiment and I think, again, counter-intuitively, think as we're veering hard into AI automation world. people want brand, things they can trust, they want to talk to people, I think we'll be seeing more investments in that area would be my prediction. Rob Jones (37:22.825) think you're right. Harris, can you top that? Harris Kenny (37:25.902) I don't know if I can top it, I, cause I agree. Um, and yeah, I mean, like these in-person things like events, I feel like are picking up more people, inviting people out and doing these interesting dinners and stuff like that. So yeah, I think that's really interesting. And it's again, like counterintuitive cause it's not measurable at all. It's not AI at all, but like chili Piper has that chili Palooza event. And I've seen some interesting posts about that and I've wondered like, Oh, it seemed like it was fun, you know, to go to that. Um, but I think for me, I think I've referenced this maybe once in the past briefly, but I think that over the next, let's just say a couple of years, but moving forward, I think there will be fewer people in go-to-market org with more spend per person. I think the GTM engineer and like, we're hiring for a new GTM engineer, but I think like in general, there's going to be a compression of head count. And I think you'll see fewer people. And then the people that are left are going to be doing much more human things. I mean, we're seeing this now with people rolling out our product and then the reps are on the phone like way more. so the like sort of semi technical data stuff they were doing before trying to play around with filters and zoom in phone stuff, that's just being taken out of their hands. And it's being done by someone else within the org. And then the person that's in the role is doing much more human stuff. So I think it'll, I think there will be a reduction in head count over time in go-to-market orgs. I, I, and I, guess is my, my, my theory would be that If I want to double down on it, think that instead you'll see growth in customer success and more people being put on the customer success side. I don't think like maybe mass layoffs or whatever. I just think like the average organization 12 months from now will have fewer people in under a sales like function and more under a success type function. Rob Jones (39:14.947) I love both of those. agree with the second one. More so just because of the tagline thing I just introduced where sales is becoming more marketing and awareness education. then, yeah, so that fits in pretty nicely. Gentlemen, it was a pleasure. Hopefully I filled in Nobly and Brendan Stead. He should be back on the 12th. Yeah, I mean... Harris Kenny (39:24.386) Yes. Zach (39:33.454) Who needs him now? Harris Kenny (39:34.774) Yeah, coup d'etat. I'm already anticipating the comments section. The mayor seized power. Rob Jones (39:40.989) Bring him back. It'll be like this for whenever they see it. It's like I've got an idea. We should hire the mayor full time So we can do that. Well, someone will see both of you next week. I'm gonna end this real quick Harris Kenny (39:45.27) You know. Zach (39:45.749) Hahaha!

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep4: Intent data, partnerships, inside-out GTM

Tue, 11 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this episode of GTM Crossroads, we dive into the evolving role of intent data, the shift from traditional data-buying approaches to more inside-out segmentation, and how teams can create hyper-targeted outbound strategies that actually convert. Plus, we touch on the hidden complexities of segmentation, why hiring a junior SDR to figure it out is a mistake, and how bad targeting can erode trust faster than anything else. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Brendan Tolleson (00:01.07) All right, gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Go to Market Crossroads. I think this is episode four. So we've made it four episodes. Like, look at us guys. This is like a thing now. So we can all be proud of what we are building together. And I think one of the fun, well, actually, before I kind of go in that, Zach, Harris, how y'all doing? Zach Vidibor (00:22.088) Good. I mean, we've probably made it into like the 99th percentile of podcast already. I'm sure like 1.1 episodes is the average. let's do those two hours. Brendan Tolleson (00:26.186) I'm Brendan Tolleson (00:31.214) You Elite Company. Harris, how about you man? Zach Vidibor (00:36.66) Yeah. But that's all right. We're doing good. Yeah. Harris Kenny (00:39.135) For sure. it's all good. Hopefully we're cracking into some people's commutes or grocery store routines or whatever. And if nothing else, if it's just between the three of us and the lamps, I've been really enjoying talking to you guys. Brendan Tolleson (00:55.182) Yeah, I don't know if we've eclipsed like 10 views yet, but that's okay, guys. I enjoy that. It gives me excuse to hang out with you all. that's that. Well, you know, I like one of the things that we did in the last few episodes, which is just kind of what's what's been going on the last week that you want to highlight. could be something from the show feedback you received from your mother, or it could be something that you're seeing in the market as you're kind of building your company. So, Harris, I'll start with you in terms of Harris Kenny (01:02.111) Yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day. Brendan Tolleson (01:25.282) What's been going on or something you want to highlight? Harris Kenny (01:27.955) Yeah, absolutely. So one thing that we do that's a little different versus like a lot of software companies is that we do have Slack channels. I know some do this, but a lot don't. We do have Slack channels with our users and then particularly for our agencies because our agencies will have like, they'll have like 10 or 20 clients that they're using our product across. And I was thinking a lot about our conversation last week around intent, intent signals, intent data providers, things like that. And I started asking a couple of our agency partners about this. like seeing kind of where they're using it how it's coming up in some of their campaigns. And I think I got to eat a little crow. mean, I was, I, I tried to be somewhat neutral, but at last week I was skeptical of intent data. And I think I was probably. I don't even know which type of logical fallacy or what type of error this was, but I think I was like misattributing. think like historically when I've thought about intent data, I thought about like a handful of very specific providers that do a very specific thing. But I think that really what has changed over the last. I don't know, six months is that like this, think thinking about it more as like signals and signal tracking and that yes, sometimes there's intent like individualized or personalized intent behind signals, but sometimes there's like firmographic or some other industry level information. But you know, basically it's like the like drum beat of things that are happening over time. And like, as that cadence changes, like, Hey, there's a new sound, there's a new something. So I think like there's more happening there than I think we gave credit to, than I gave credit to last week. And I think like social signals, job changes, like these things have been kind of like one-offs, but I think they're becoming more structurally baked into how companies are doing all bound. And so I think like with that in mind, I think there's probably a lot more here and frankly, like a lot of learning for me about like what are the current state of the art? Because like I said, like I said last week, like we're small, we have a small go-to-market budget, we're three person team. most of the time I was spending my time focused on like uptime and like looking at logs. And so like our actual business, we are probably not the most innovative go-to-market team ourselves. So yeah, so that's just kind of what I've been kind of like reflecting on and thinking like, okay, I've got some catching up to do here, which is a good thing. You know, we're always learning, but yeah, those are my reflections. Brendan Tolleson (03:45.612) Well, got to go back. No, go ahead. Zach Vidibor (03:45.798) I maybe. Go for it. No, I was just gonna maybe build on that a little. had some of, think our mutual friends, Alex and Ali from Undershort. They were actually, they were out my way in San Francisco, so got to have a in-person powwow, pound the table, you know, get all animated over some beers, all in good fun. But like we were talking about this as well and they were really highlighting. Harris Kenny (03:58.773) yeah. Zach Vidibor (04:14.1) to your point Harris, about the signals and you can do a of different things and just the success they've had with social retargeting, right? And really elegant way to kind of take in a stream of people that are coming to your front door and kind of like we were talking about last time, I'm just like, is it intent? I don't know, you know? Harris Kenny (04:21.395) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (04:32.99) who knows why they landed there. It's hard to say you're a hand raiser, but then there are these other things you can do with that signal and get that into different channels. I think they were just, no surprise, calling out the success they've had with that. And it makes intuitive sense. We all know that experience we have on. you search for something on Google, then you pop open Instagram and you see the ad and you're like, yeah, well, they did a good job there. I was thinking about that, you know? So it's like, it does feel intuitive and yeah, there's lots of opportunity there. So I was thinking about that, yeah, over the last few days as well. Harris Kenny (05:00.117) You Brendan Tolleson (05:10.678) Yeah, the end story guys are great. Another Atlanta Bay shop where I'm at. maybe Zach, you can kill two birds with one stone, get your butt on a flight and get over here, Here's your welcome too as well. yeah, I think that. Zach Vidibor (05:14.643) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (05:19.442) I know, they're excited. Harris Kenny (05:23.889) It's been a while. The last time I was in Atlanta was a long, time ago, but it was a great trip. Brendan Tolleson (05:29.452) Well guys, that actually is a great opportunity for me to share some news in the last week. We are actually gonna be holding an event in Atlanta. So if you're a revenue leader, I promised I didn't set that up, but it actually worked out really well. So I'm just gonna use it. So we are gonna be hosting Southbound, which is our annual revenue event in Atlanta. It'll be May, gosh, this is the first time I've announced it, so I'm gonna get the dates wrong. But it's Wednesday and Thursday, which I believe is May 20th and 21st. Zach Vidibor (05:37.961) Hello? Brendan Tolleson (05:57.222) You may have the opportunity to see Zach and Harris. I haven't talked to them about this, but I would love for them to be there. You'll probably see the understory guys and a bunch of other cool people in the ecosystem. we're excited. We just locked in the dates today and getting the vendors and the speakers all done. heads up, that's coming in May. So we're excited about that. I guess the only other learning that I call out from this past week, this is nice feel forward moment. I think Harris, you're the one that said eating crow. I thought this was kind of ironic because we talked about email deliverability a few weeks ago. And we have an SDR and we experienced the problem of email deliverability. his domain got crushed. And in fact, his email got shut down. So I thought that was a fun moment to call out to the team that even though we're supposedly such a matter of experts, even we fail. So I just thought I'd share that as we're in a safe place. This is therapy in some ways. But guys, think as we kind of move on into the topics for today, or the topic rather, this is our fourth week as we talked about. And so kind of like building on the sequence, we talked about deliverability, we talked about the copy, we talked about intent. And I think it'd be kind of the segue even from what you, Zach and Harris were talking about, just gets in beyond intent. What are ways that you've seen be successful for us to look at the database in a way which drives that conversion from... with these prospects. And so that's kind of what I want us to focus on today. And it could just be exactly what you just said, like, hey, here's some of the things I'm learning as a result of talking to people or things that you're seeing even within your own environment that have driven success. So that's what we're going to park on for the rest of the time. But who would like to get started? Zach Vidibor (07:42.136) I got a thought maybe we can run, run with something, see where it takes us. But I guess I think, you know, when we're talking about like data and all this and list building and segmenting your market. And I think like a big transition that's happening and definitely enabled by AI is I think it kind of used to be. You would like define your market kind of like. outside in, right? Like you would be buying data and like zoom info or social sales net or whoever, like they define the schema, they define the world through filters and ranges and like all these things. And I think that just became the de facto way of companies will go like, all right, this is the data set. So I have to define my market via this available data. And I think things have changed a lot now where you're able to go kind of more inside out of, okay, that data is important, the firmographics, the technographics, those are all nodes in the universe, but also like, what the hell do we care about? And you know, like the classic example of like a Vanta or a Drata or like their go-to-market motion is like, hey, like what's the most important thing? Like, I wanna go to your website and see, do you list a SOC 2 certification or not? Right, like data points like that, those become like more valuable than. any like industry or employer range or anything else, right? And so I think there's been, there's like this ongoing revolution of like, how do you define these other pieces of data that makes sense to like your unique business, your products, your services, your motions, and like really make that a part of list building and segmentation and qualification and all these points. And I think there's just like, we're at the like early, early innings of like, how do we define our own day? And then via AI tools, can get so much, can scrape and extract and find and summarize and like, you can get so much more from the universe now, then you were just kind of forced to just buy off the truck as is and a, you know, a flat file or a GUI, who cared, you know, it was all the same for everybody. Now you can kind of define your own. Zach Vidibor (09:53.172) universe. it's just like that. That's something I've been thinking a lot of kind of this like, yeah, like outside in versus inside out, how do you define yourself? And I think that like unlocks a lot of a lot of possibilities. Zach Vidibor (10:08.212) I don't know if that resonates or sparks any ideas or is just too esoteric. Brendan Tolleson (10:16.841) I was thinking of here's the floor. I can speak into it here if you'd like. Harris Kenny (10:20.275) I'm just processing. thinking. I'm still thinking about what we were talking about before we started recording too. You're giving me a lot today, Zach. Zach Vidibor (10:26.396) All right. Brendan Tolleson (10:27.763) Well, yeah, it isn't like whatever you call it inside out or outside in or inside out that I think there's this element of like democratization of data. I guess I don't know how else to say it. It's like the data is no longer exclusive to a handful of providers. Like the data is at your fingertips. And so how do you actually weaponize that where those that know how to do it well will win. we have this like the first episode, I think is like there you can have such a competitive advantage if you know how to set things up well. And so I think that that part to what you just described, Zach, makes a ton of sense. This isn't exclusive to a few. Everyone has access to it now. And so what do do about that? And it gets pretty exciting about how you can set things up. Harris Kenny (11:15.071) Yeah, yeah, I agree. think that, you know, like so much of the problem before was, it's like, okay, I'm a data provider and like, I need to put this data into a database. like, I need like tables and columns and I need to organize it. And it's just like, that's like a fundamentally like, it's like a limiting thing, but it's like, how else were they gonna do it? You know, there was no other way for them to do it. And I think with the inside out approach, I think the... The bigger challenge is... You know, I think like a lot of organizations aren't ready to do that. I mean, they haven't, they don't really understand fully like who they sell to or like what it is that they're trying to do. I mean, sometimes it's like pretty shocking how big companies can get just because like they had the right idea at the right time. And it doesn't mean it's a bad company or it's an immature company. I mean, I have a ton of respect for anybody that can come up with an idea and make a buck, you know, as long as it's not. you know, something bad. it's like, but that in and of itself doesn't necessarily make a company like good at this idea of like what we're calling a go to market now, a GTM now. you know, it's like, if you're going inside out, like you have to like go within and then you really have to understand like who is it that you're selling to, what are their priorities? And then you have to have a way of like maintaining that as it changes. over time. So it's like your company evolves over months and over years and your customer base changes and what they're buying and your features, like all of those things change over time. And I think that the idea of like just buying this off the shelf stuff, it made it easy. I think that the like the maintenance aspect of this and what we're talking about is much harder than people kind of give credit for. And I think it puts like way more pressure on the CRM than has historically been expected in terms of like data hygiene. Harris Kenny (13:12.691) and data governance, and we have a user who they have a very serious Salesforce admin, and so we have really good back and forth with her, and we're asking like, okay, how do you want it to be, and what can we add to our product to solve this problem better? And what has stood out to me is how unusual she is relative to maybe some of the other admins that we've interacted with at other companies, where she's asking these questions, and I'm like, my gosh, like how? Like this isn't even a problem with our product necessarily. It's not something we're doing right or wrong. She's just asking like depth of questions. And I'm like, nobody's asked me that in two years. And so, you know, it's like, and this is like, and anyway, so yeah, I think like the inside out, like what that, that puts pressure, I think on teams that they're not like fully equipped to like handle it. I don't know if they have like the right personnel or the right process around like how they manage their systems to do that work. Zach Vidibor (14:05.491) No. Harris Kenny (14:06.261) in ways that I think are unexpected. It's not just like go sign up for clay or something, you know? It requires like a discipline that I just like is not typical from what I've seen working with teams, you know? I don't know if you guys agree with that or not. Zach Vidibor (14:16.755) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (14:19.505) think actually what would be helpful, we've talked about inside, I know Zach, you mentioned Inside Out and, or excuse me, yeah, Zach and then Harris, you talked a little bit about it, but maybe let's take a step back. What do you mean, Zach, by Inside Out for those that may not be as familiar with that concept, just to set the foundation. Zach Vidibor (14:35.952) Yeah, I guess, let's, I guess maybe I can go back into my, my own personal history, you know, like my, my sales job 15 years ago. And it was like, data was, it was so much more a, you know, the, the CRM was about, Hey, does this account have a Dunn's number? Because that will tell us like what bucket we put it in and how you operate and what, what you go march off into the universe and talk about, right? Like, they're they're a tax service provider, done, SIC code, blah, blah, blah, go talk about that. And I think like, again, that's a crude example, but I think it was like, oftentimes it's like, we go buy data, we stuff it into CRM based on what's available, we do our best job slicing up. And then again, I'll speak to like my background. You would go like, all right, what's the most sensible way to do this? Like we kind of go buy, size of company and then we have reps in SMB, mid market and enterprise and it's kind of size of company roughly maps to kind of size of prize of the deal and like go forth and prosper, you know? And I think like, again, crude example, but now I think companies are being much more thoughtful of like, hey, maybe, you know, higher education, very large organizations, lots of revenue, lots of employees, but like, they don't spend the same way, they buy different ways, they're regulated. I think companies have gotten and need to get much more sophisticated about like, all right, the customers are selling to like, how do we deliver emotion that they're gonna understand what we do, how we can help them specifically? And I think getting much more in the weeds of, hey, are you, where does your infrastructure sit? If you're a technology that's selling into the... a company's infrastructure, go, hey, are you multi-cloud? Do you need stuff on-prem? All of these types of things that are. Zach Vidibor (16:43.784) more granular ways of just kind of understanding your customer and likely what they care about and where they're feeling pains and not just going like, you you're oil and gas, you're regulated, you care about compliance, know, blah, blah, blah. You know, like, I guess that's what I mean. I don't know if this is too squishy or helpful, but I think all of that data that exists out in the universe is no doubt valuable, but the like inside out is going first starting with like, What do we do that's like really unique? Why do our customers buy from us versus the next guy? And then what are the signals? What are the data points? What are the like, you know, what are the comorbidities with our, you know, our, you know, motion, right? Like what are the things we can go look for that are really specific and interesting and not the things that everybody's looking, you know, I think like we talked about last time, they like. Brendan Tolleson (17:20.613) Okay. Zach Vidibor (17:39.848) funding, hiring, promotion, job change, you know, like all of those things are like, okay, those exist. Are they truly relevant to you? Is it always just like, go take the signal that you can buy from somebody and just like bolt your value prop onto it? Or is it more like, can we go craft a signal that's actually really important to our business, then search for that and then boom, when we made that with our value prop, now we have a unique story. Harris Kenny (18:08.181) Yeah, I think the Vanta example is like a really interesting one because that's like a different way of segmenting companies of like, do they or do they not have SOC 2, for example, on their site? And if they do, you might approach them differently. I think that like we had a customer, we had back when I ran the agency, we had a customer that provided a service that was like essentially like a surge service for contractors. And so, you know, we had spent quite a bit of time developing a campaign around. like weather events where contractors would have like an increase in doing like restoration services and things like that. There was one that for another previous client where they would, like we targeted like the attendees at the user conference kind of thing, which was really effective. And like for some of these, you have to get really creative, but it's like, like, yeah, like in this case, it's like a really small market, you know? And so, Brendan Tolleson (19:03.237) you Harris Kenny (19:05.301) But yeah, I think that it's like identifying a way to segment, know, if you think about like, basically if it's, if you can apply a filter in Apollo or ZoomInfo, that's like level one thinking kind of thing. And I feel like level two is a data point that stitches between columns somehow within a traditional lead database. I'm not saying use or don't use ZoomInfo or Apollo, I'm just saying like, Zach Vidibor (19:24.03) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (19:32.694) If they can easily categorize it, then it's like probably not sufficient for like where I think we're talking about things are going, which is like more advanced segmentation. It's like yes, level one and two. So the guests, okay, but you have to look at the website for this. But then you also have to look at their like org chart to see like, do they have this job title within their organization? And you know, whatever. it's like that that's kind of where you start getting I think the insight, you can get this kind of like, much better messaging, you can hit the relevance better than you could before, I think. Brendan Tolleson (20:02.796) Yeah, it's interesting on our side because the comment you guys made about outside in versus inside out, you know, we're, I think I've shared this before, we're about $10 million business. And like, we've got a lot of data. And it's funny because we, one of our, if you guys are familiar with OKRs, which we get, that's a whole nother debate if OKRs is the right structure, but that's like on a quarterly basis, hey, what are the priorities for each department? And we've also been going through a whole messaging. And it was funny because Zach Vidibor (20:24.775) Okay. Brendan Tolleson (20:32.676) I was our customer success team, which we call PX. Like I was like charged. They're charged with like coming out with the personas that we serve. And at the same time, I'm like communicating the met the narrative we're taking the market is this. This is the persona we serve. And then they're like, well, but we don't serve that persona. Like we may aspirationally serve that persona, but here's like the actual data shows. And I'd be curious to get y'all. And the reason I bring that up is one, think it's it's timely and it hits in a way that I think is Zach Vidibor (20:55.582) over. Brendan Tolleson (21:02.372) very close to home. But I also wonder too, there is, how do you guys think about like what is like your current state versus aspirational? Like Zach, I know you guys are in a growth mode mindset and like where you are today may be different from where you want to go and who you serve, et cetera. Like how do you balance that in your mind of, yep, this is the persona, like let's just use the data to inform how we target, but we also know. Zach Vidibor (21:26.238) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (21:29.348) Hey, we want to go to bigger companies. want to go to bigger sales teams or whatever that may be for you. I'd be curious to think to hear how you balance that. Zach Vidibor (21:39.048) yeah, definitely living that as we speak. I think we're, we try and be pretty thoughtful. would say I give us some credit in like, we're trying to push people to do something new. So you have, you have to paint something aspirational. There has to be kind of some motivating vision. Hey, on the other side of this, you know, the chasm. something better exists, but I don't think you can go too far out. And I think we do speak to our customers a lot in the language of like, okay, let me tell you what's on the truck today. Let me tell you a crawl, crawl, run. Here's what we can take off the truck and do today. And here's where we can get to with the current product and here's what we're building. I think I've always found, But buyers are smart, they know they're investing in a relationship and they wanna know where you're headed, right? It takes a long time and it's painful, they don't wanna make a switch. So I think some of the vision and aspiration really is important, because people want that as well. The people that are gonna buy what we're doing from all of us, they're trying to transform, they're trying to change, and so. encouraging them that we're gonna be on the journey together. Here's the path we're headed down. We're not there yet, but we're gonna link up arms and go together. I think that's good. You gotta be a little careful. Don't make promises you can't keep, of course, but some blend of the here's where we can get and here's where we start. If you give me money today, let me be. Harris Kenny (23:26.069) Thank Brendan Tolleson (23:26.23) I'm Zach Vidibor (23:27.028) I think there is also, and maybe this is more just like sales theory, but super transparent, set the bar low, give yourself a chance to over exceed expectations, I think is always a better move in my opinion. yeah, we're definitely blending both. How do we help you with outbound today? How do we help you? have a smarter brain for your ICP and this living definition in the future, right? Like people aren't buying that from me today, but they believe like, okay, as I start to adopt Octave, I get to start to have this living breathing definition of who I care about, why they buy from me, what their pains are. like, I think we're getting people to buy into that, but then that's not necessarily, you know, what we go do tomorrow after they sign up, you know? Harris Kenny (24:18.581) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (24:18.692) Yeah, I like that. There's today and tomorrow kind of narrative in that. And Harris, may come to you with another question is. So I mean, from what I understand from your good, like everyone has different, I say everyone, there are different types of go-to-market motions. And so I think for outbound sync as an example, my perception is outbound sync is more of a sell through versus a sell to, meaning you're building partnerships that then drive in-user relationships. As we think about this topic of not just like the product roadmap, but also like the database, like does it... Harris Kenny (24:37.418) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (24:49.407) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (24:56.79) Does it change the sell to like when you're doing a partnership motion versus a direct motion that you think is worth calling out for the audience or is it hey, a customer is a customer no matter how you're going to market. Harris Kenny (25:09.545) Yeah, definitely. I I think that our our go-to-market strategy is informed by our by our cap table, you know, and I think like that's true of lot of companies. Like when a company started and it has like ownership, like what is the structure of the company? And that's going to like if you kind of work from the at some point, whether it's when I die and this is a, you know, 65 year project for me or it's in 30 years or 10 years or five years or whatever. At some point, I won't be running this company anymore. And so it's like, are the expectations of the people who started it and who invested in it? And we did a pre seed round with tiny seed and we are bootstrapped. So like, we don't have the cash to teach the market. And I think I really believe in what we're working on, but I don't know that it's like a venture scale billion dollar plus opportunity, you know, like Sam Altman talks about like, oh, you know, if it couldn't be a 10 billion dollar company, you're wasting your time. If you're trying to raise venture kind of thing. And like, we're not like, I mean, we're solving like a connection problem. And so as a result of that, like my focus is like, why don't like, we need to just find the people who agree that this problem matters and who have a sense of urgency. Like we don't have the budget to like teach them about why it's important. And that's okay, right? Like, and so therefore what agencies do for us is that they're out there showing how to get incredible results. And of the companies who decide to bring on an expert to get those results, some percentage of them are, and I believe more over time as we like, as this becomes more mainstream, will also have data governance requirements around their CRM and tracking and compliance and security. And then as that happens, we will be there to help those agencies serve that increasingly sophisticated customer of theirs. Whereas like two years ago, the people who are using, like, I mean, I've been a smart lead customer for over two years. It's a very, very, very early customer of Clay. The people who are using Clay and smart lead back two years ago were very different than they are today. It's like a lot of founder led companies, a lot of tiny, you It was just like experimenters and hackers and stuff. And so, you know, for us, our go-to-market is like, find the people who already kind of get it and just need to, and we just need to show them like, Hey, here's how to do that thing that you're, that you've already spent some time thinking about that you've already looked up on YouTube once or twice or Googled, or you built with make, or you've talked about it with chat GPT. And so that's for us, that's where agencies help. And that's kind of how we, we tend to think about it. Cause you know, and so for us, like, you know, if you're familiar with that, meme. Harris Kenny (27:36.692) of like the mid-wit that like sits in the middle, like the middle IQ. It's like very complicated ideas. And then there's like the low end and the high end of the IQ bell curve. And there's like the simple person has the same idea as a really smart person. I got caught in that like mid-wit part of the curve. Like I was running this, I was building out these things that were complicated. And at the end of the day, like right now what I'm doing with the campaigns that I'm shipping today that will go out in March are like, hey, you use SmartLead, you use HubSpot, we make them talk. Let me know if that's interesting to you at all. Like really simple. Zach Vidibor (27:37.948) Yeah. Yeah. Harris Kenny (28:04.851) That's it. Like that's what we do. If you like that, if you think that's important, let's talk. If not, no worries. Have a good life. Like happy trails. And like that's, mean, that's really all that for us. That's all that matters right now. it doesn't matter. Like if they have five STRs or 10 STRs or if they're in, you know, London or Sydney or who, mean, who do you use these two tools and do want her to talk? Right? Like that's the job. So for us, that's it. And like 95 % of people might say no. And it's like, great. Who cares? I just, I'm just trying to find that handful who, who are right now. So That's kind how my thinking on this has evolved over time. But I'm not trying to, you it's different. It's different in terms of expectations of the company and performance and what success looks like. You we need to pay our bills right now and we don't have extra money for like running bigger campaigns. So yeah, I think that dictates a lot of the decisions that we make as a business, you know, and maybe that'll change one day, but that's where we're at today. Brendan Tolleson (28:55.236) Well, I think it's helpful to inform how you're going to market in terms of, we have resource constraints and therefore we need to build a partnership model that actually serves as our sales force to allow us to have efficiency. And to your point, we're not raising capital, so we don't have capital to burn. it sounds like the same, hey guys, regardless of whether you're doing partner-led motion or direct motion, the same, the data can be applied the same manner. kind of your point, simplify the message to figure out from a focus and clarity perspective, what are those hooks that's going to drive engagement? And so for you, like the Spark lead HubSpot example is a great one of all I need is 5 % to say yes and I'm on a good spot. Harris Kenny (29:36.82) Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think for us, like our focus is on educating our partners. So it's like, how do we get them to understand our product and to get them to show their clients why this matters? And so that's why we've been focusing a lot on revenue attribution. Like the understory, know, Alex Find Understory, talked about them earlier. Like he had a client where they found that they were driving like two to three X, depending on the month, the pipeline that they were getting credit for. And it's because like they would come in, they would get a cold email and then they would forward it and they would end up coming in through a paid ad or through some other channel. And so it's like, that's like a really cool, tight, simple story that we can give our agencies, our partners to go out and tell the market and they can tell their clients, Hey, like we might be doing more for you than you think. Do you want us to track that? Okay, well here's how we need that data in HubSpot. So that like is a big focus for us. It's like, how do we equip our partners and so that they can go out and explain to their clients why this, why this matters and get some where they want to go. And so it is really different, you know, like we don't, I'm not sending out lots of marketing emails. I'm not taking 10, 15 demo calls a day. It's definitely a different lever to pull. Brendan Tolleson (30:38.088) Well, I think that gets into the value element and it goes back to what Zach was talking about around like with the partnership you have with your customers. There's today and there's tomorrow. And like we will continue to deliver in a way in which it achieves the outcome that you have as a business. Well, guys, we're wrapped. I know many of were at time. Any concluding thoughts? Zach, I'll let you start and Harris, I'll let you finish. Zach Vidibor (31:03.576) man, I don't know. Love the discussion today and great meme poll by the way, the mid-wit is like, I feel like I want that on my wall to live by that. I always think of the Apple Notes version of the guy that's got the notes with the make with the air table and it's just like, the ninja's just like, I use Apple Notes. So anyways, I just get that out of my head. Great poll. Harris Kenny (31:12.021) you Harris Kenny (31:27.541) That's right. That's right. You just, yeah. I mean, I think of myself as it's like Schrodinger's meme. Like I'm constantly in all three parts of that bell curve, feel like, depending on what the topic is. No, I think segmentation is, super important and using it to try to get better results. And I think the only thing I'll just say on this is like, people think they can hire an entry level person to figure this out. Brendan Tolleson (31:28.508) We'll have that as the thumbnail for this episode. Zach Vidibor (31:41.383) Alright. Right. Harris Kenny (31:57.442) and like it's pretty freaking hard. And I think that you're going to have a bad time if you try to do that. I mean, you've got to have smart people in the room, whether that's an agency or it's software vendors or some combination of them and internal hires. Like this is like what makes companies work. It's not, you know, the colors of your logo or whatever. And so I think that this is way harder than people realize. It's just really, yeah, it's just tough. you know, they, people hire an SDR and then they fire them two months later because they didn't book 10 meetings. And you're like, you know, that, that, definitely bothers me. I think when people underestimate how hard this stuff is, because the segmentation is not, not, not easy. And then in hindsight, it's always obvious is the thing you hear the story of Vantas so big and they found this. Yeah. But like they went through, they walked over, walked through glass to get to that insight. And then only in hindsight, you're like, duh, you know, Brendan Tolleson (32:47.358) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (32:52.946) Yeah, and it's not, you don't get to it once either. It's not like, it's never done, you know, so I think people need to recognize that. Brendan Tolleson (32:53.224) Yeah, mean... go- Harris Kenny (32:57.469) Right. Brendan Tolleson (33:03.112) Well, I think we also there's a cost associated with doing it wrong. It's not just like you throwing people a problem and that there's that element, but there's the there's the trust with the buyer that is like super important that we can't forget. It's like you can erode trust very, very fast. And once you are on the blacklist, it's very hard to change that. And we talked about in the first episode is that rise of the strategic tech tech tition that you can't just throw a body at it on the SDR side or on. like an admin side, someone really needs to understand what you're trying to achieve from a go-to-market perspective to operationalize that inside the CRM. so yeah, if you have a disconnected system and you're just throwing bodies at it, you're in a world of hurt, because it's going to introduce a lot of friction into the buyer process, but also into the internal teams. And nobody wins in that scenario. Zach Vidibor (33:54.942) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (33:56.349) Alright guys, well, appreciate your time. Look forward to next week and hopefully see you in Atlanta in May for Southbound. Zach Vidibor (33:59.486) Blow it. Zach Vidibor (34:05.63) pencil in your calendars, folks. Brendan Tolleson (34:07.421) See ya. Zach Vidibor (34:09.822) See ya, bye. Harris Kenny (34:10.111) Thanks guys.

Automate Smartlead Manual Steps in Salesforce with OutboundSync & Make

Thu, 06 Mar 2025 00:00:00 GMT

When running scaled outbound, reps need more than just automated email touches—they need structured manual steps like phone calls and social outreach. This guide shows how to use OutboundSync, Smartlead, and Make.com to dynamically create Salesforce tasks for these actions, ensuring that reps take the right steps at the right time. ## Transcript 00:00 Hey there, my name is Harris Kenny. I'm the founder of OutboundSync, and I want to walk through a question that we got from a user, which is showing how to include manual steps from your Smartlead sequences, including those as tasks inside of Salesforce for your sales team. 00:20 So, what's really powerful about this is that it's going to allow your team to take advantage of scaled outbound and deliverability that you're getting from Smartlead, syncing that data continuously over to Salesforce through OutboundSync . 00:34 So that OutboundSync is taking care of creating the accounts and contacts and logging those continuous tasks. But we're also going to give you a configurable way to use make.com to create those custom tasks that might change over time. 00:48 So inside of this example, I'm going to show you how to do a phone call task, but there are more. 00:52 For example, you could very easily include something like a social step or research task or something else. Now we've already built this entire thing, so let's just jump in and I'm going to show you how it works. 01:03 Now starting with smart lead, we open the settings and go to the webhook menu. Here we're going to create a webhook. 01:10 Now, I'm going to jump ahead to make and we'll come back to this later. Using make.com, the first thing we want to do is in our scenario, we want to create a step where we have a webhook receiver. 01:25 This is what Smartlead is going to send the data to. This destination is where Smartlead is going to send those manual step events as they occur. 01:34 Once you've done you create this step and you activate the webhook, you can send a test payload from that URL in Smartlead using the send test to webhook button. 01:46 Now make sure that you have the manual step reached event type selected because that's the event that we want to send over. 01:54 Once that's received, Smartlead payload is going to be mapped by make.com and you'll be able to reference these variables in the bundle later on in our make scenario. 02:04 The next thing we need to do is we need to find that lead inside of Salesforce. Now this is where OutboundSync helps because I can tell you the first version of our product two years ago, we built it, started using make.com and over time it gets really, really difficult to do the kind of things that 02:26 we are doing now in a full application. But if you want to just do simpler, shorter steps like a single lookup and a single task creation and then have OutboundSync writing that underlying core activity and making sure that the accounts and the contacts and those relations are consistently set correctly 02:42 , handling all the formatting of the JSON and other things like that. So, doing that within Salesforce's API limits and with a secure app, all those things, all those things are where I think that, um, where we're adding a lot of value and making life easier. 02:55 But that doesn't mean you can't use any automation like this. And in fact, as I'm showing you today, I think this is a really valuable thing for sales teams. 03:01 So, you have OutboundSync running in the background, so that when Make does this search, that does this lookup, it's a lot easier. 03:09 Because you know that the data is already in there. Because you've already had your, uh, OutboundSync automation happen in these earlier steps inside of your Smartlead Sequence. 03:17 And that removes a lot of complexity. So, we do our lookup, we take the lead email that we got from that Smartlead Bundle, in this case, Dinesh at gmail.com. 03:26 We do that lookup. We only need one, because we're just going to create a single. This is where we don't want to have dupes, duplicates, and things like that. 03:35 But, of course, we're gonna get a whole set. A set of fields related to that record. So we're using the search records SOQL node in our make scenario. 03:49 I added a little step here, which is that I want to filter. I want to only create a call task if I have a phone number to call. 03:57 And so, you know, the workflow here, what this would really look like is if you want to think about the whole thing end to end, is that step one, you build a list and you import it into Salesforce using something like a clay, then you add any enrichment data, anything you might need like phone numbers 04:12 , job titles, industry, anything else you might want to include. OutboundSync is running in the background, syncing activities as they run, as the campaign executes. 04:21 And then you get to a manual step. and this is where we're going to look. Make sure we have a phone number for that contact in Salesforce. 04:28 And if we do, we're going to proceed. Now you can imagine that there are other things you could do here. 04:32 You could say if there's no phone number, do something else. Similarly, you could have automation and include social. So there's a lot, a lot you can do here, but I just kind of wanted to build a basic end to end, uh, scenario that I thought would get the job done. 04:44 Finally we want to create our task. So we're actually going to use the create record module. And I went ahead and pre-populated this with some things. 04:53 So we are filling in some of the fields from the earlier search bundle, which is the contact ID, the account ID. 05:00 I've hard-coded what I want to call this task, the subject line. I've set a due date and just normal priority. 05:09 I left the status as not started because we haven't started the step yet. Set the owner ID to be of the task to be the owner of the contact from that we found in the previous step. 05:20 And then I'm pulling that description over from Smartlead, which is going to have potentially some more information about what to mention during the call or details about the campaign, things like that. 05:28 Now because OutboundSync is going to be syncing activities, you're also going to have emails logged on this record and you're going to have the campaign name and other details about the campaign, which will be really helpful. 05:37 Context when you jump on the phone, obviously we're logging this as an outbound call. I set a reminder and that's it. 05:47 So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to run this whole thing, sending a test payload and we're going to see how it works. 05:52 So this is running now. This is waiting for a payload. So let's, Let's do this one more time. Okay, cool. 05:58 So that payload was just received in smart lead, uh, from Smartlead. Excuse me. We did our lookup. So here we are. 06:03 We have our Dinesh Smartlead is the lead name. This is the email address. And we're going to use that email address as our unique identifier. 06:09 Here we can see that we found the Dinesh smart lead contact. And just to give you, if you look at this account record, it ends in AAG. 06:19 And here we are in this smart lead account. In Salesforce, you can see ending in AAG. And then here is our Dinesh. 06:25 Okay, great. So now we've got our contact created ending in AAT. And here you can see this is the same contact ID and you can see our manual step call task right here. 06:39 And we've got the comments, the description came, got pulled in from smart lead. We've got all the details that we referenced earlier. 06:45 And what I've done here is I've also included that naming convention that OutboundSync is using for when it's logging email so that you can have reporting that's going to include these manual steps alongside other reports based on tasks inside of Salesforce. 07:01 So you can see our phone filter worked and this was our created record and this is our create a task. 07:06 If you look at the end here. Record ID ending in EAA, record ID ending in EAA. This is our task that we've created. 07:16 Let's, let's just work through how we might solve some little edge cases that might come up on our own. Let's take a new contact. We've got Jane Dough and let's just run this search only. 07:27 So I'm right-clicking and I'm going to run this module and I'm going to search for the Jane Dough contact. Here you can see we found her. 07:35 Contact ended. Ending in AAU. This is the same record. Now let's just imagine we want to test something different. So I'm going to run the last module here, which is create a record. 07:46 I'm going to skip over this phone filter, uhm, and so in order to do this, I've saved the account contact and some of the other identifying information that we're going to need to actually run just this because. 07:59 Creating a record has a couple of dependencies here. It has these variables that we're referencing. So we've also got the owner and the description. 08:05 And so I'm going to run this, but in order to run it, I'm going to pull over some of those variables. 08:12 So I've got the account ID here. I've got the contact ID here, and then lastly, the owner ID. And I'm just going to put this in this is a manual test for the internet. 08:30 Ohai. Okay. We're going to run that. And here we are just testing the very, very end of our make scenario. 08:36 Here you can see, it looks like it was successful. We've got a task created ending in E A Q. So let's just give a refresh here. 08:42 Give a refresh here. All right. And we've got it. So this was, this is the one that we just created and you can tell this difference because it has a different description than the one that we created before. 08:52 Um, so this is a different example of just again, finding a specific record that already exists, running this test through, seeing how it works. 08:59 So pretty cool. Um, going back here, I'll just show you really quick. So this is that naming convention I referenced earlier. 09:04 So if you wanted to have reporting that would show all smart lead related activity that includes both the emails themselves as well as manual steps, because we included in the task subject, this naming convention from OutboundSync, we've got that bracket smart lead. 09:18 We can, we can build reports off of that and then we can branch that off and say, okay, show me tasks where it's email sent. 09:24 Show me tasks where instead this includes manual step. Now we also have OS here for outbound sync in brackets, uh, at the beginning of the task subject, but you know, this could be SL specifically. 09:35 Smartlead for like a smart lead direct task, or you know, you could put OutboundSync for there as well. This is, this is going to be really where the Salesforce admin or whoever's in charge of making sure that your, um, you know, account is working well, like Salesforce admin by, by title or by, by role 09:52 . Um, they're going to want, you're going to want to really want to focus on these naming conventions because if this is your foundation for your data or your context layer, and then later as you start looking at agentic workflows using agent force and other things, and even just basic reporting, naming 10:04 conventions are going to be the key. They're going to be the key to laying a good foundation. So really, really think about that, but that, that's a kind of a conversation for another day. 10:12 Um, so anyway, I hope you find this helpful. Um, I hope you try it out. Uh, this is something we're going to be doing a lot more figuring out how we can do deeper support for workflows and automation for sales teams in Salesforce using agentic using outbound sync. 10:24 Um, but hopefully this is a little help, helpful, um, set of tips that you can use. And by combining these additional steps, we've found that teams are much more successful using phones, using social, even using things like direct mail through platforms like Sendoso or Grove cookie company. 10:40 These extra steps, uh, in addition to just any one channel is where we're finding people are getting really amazing results. 10:47 So anyway, thanks for watching. Have a great day and we'll see you on the next one.

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep3: The Truth About Intent Data and Using It

Fri, 28 Feb 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In episode three of GTM Crossroads, the hosts discuss various topics related to sales, marketing, and intent data in particular. Brendan, Harris, and Zach discuss the challenges of attribution in intent data, the distinction of demand capture and demand generation, and the significance of understanding the buyer's journey. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Brendan Tolleson (00:02.174) All right, gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Go To Market Crossroads. My name is not Kimberly, my name is Brendan. But Kimberly, if you're listening to this podcast, it was a pleasure working with you and I hope you're doing well. But anyways, back to the program. Harris, Zach, good to see you guys again. This has become a fun little weekly event. And as we did last week, I thought it'd be fun again to just, hey, what's been going on last week? What's something that's caught your attention or something that's on your mind? Zach Vidibor (00:16.376) you Brendan Tolleson (00:30.015) It could be anything from something going on in your internal company, something you're seeing on social, peer groups, et cetera. We'd just love for the audience, to invite the audience into the mind of a founder, co-founder, and what you're thinking about within your own respective area. So Harris, Kenny, or, Harris, Kenny, that was not good. Harris or Zach, either one, feel free to jump in. Harris Kenny (00:53.823) I can go first as Harris Kenny, as both of those names. You know, think the thing that I've been thinking about a lot over the last week is we're pushing out a bunch of new Salesforce features. And, you know, I think that we're just seeing a lot of this growth hacking movement is growing up. And, you know, we have agencies who are now having to kind of reconcile their process with Zach Vidibor (00:55.544) Brendan Tolleson (00:56.222) Yeah Harris Kenny (01:21.231) Salesforce admins, you know, and for mature organizations running HubSpot, not only do they have the sales team, but they actually are running like a single connected platform. So it's also going to affect service and marketing. Um, and. You know, to me, it's just, it's just really different. It's different than where this conversation has been. And I think this is kind of where we're talking about, the CRO seat and like, what does it look like for a CRO who has, you we talked about previously, like 18 months to get it done and just like the data model. And like everyone's like very excited about AI and automating things, but just like this underlying really basic data model of like what properties or fields need to be complete. What's the like formatting or the type of properties or fields? I think that like the year to come is going to be less fun. Not to be like a bear of bad news, but I think it's going to be less fun than the last year in this world, because I think it's like, it's this really frankly, monotonous. work of making sure that things are like formatted and structured and going in the right place and in the right process order. I think it's like a healthy part of the process. that's what I've been thinking lately. Just lots of email threads, customer support threads, conversations on calls. Even like in WhatsApp groups, people are being like, hey, does anybody know how this works? You one of my customers was asking about it. So that's kind of what I'm seeing right now. Zach Vidibor (02:42.988) Yeah. That's awesome. Shout out, Kimberly, again, if you're listening. I think maybe some breaking news, slightly different, but Clay, who I think we've had in this conversation a lot and talking about this new paradigm we're entering, they just announced this morning they're doing a community equity offering. Brendan Tolleson (02:47.874) You Harris Kenny (02:48.299) Sorry. Harris Kenny (03:05.965) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (03:06.476) which I think is a really cool development. like, think, you know, like this is almost like a topic for its own of just like community and like, you're gonna slap me on the wrist, Brendan. I think we're talking about the tactical practitioner and like the go-to-market engineer and like, we're like, we're starting to develop like this new function and this new practice and like community is gonna be a huge part of that. Cause like this thing is kind of like. evolving and it's a living breathing like we're kind of defining this as we go and there's a lot of different pieces of this new stack that are kind of coming together and I just think community is going to be a huge part of that and I think like you know kudos to clay for like making a big move there and like trying to cement themselves at the center and like be a part of it and let their customers and partners participate in that way so like I thought that was pretty cool to see and I think yeah just like I think it's gonna be a big part of like, I think we're trying to do a little bit of it here, like start a conversation. We all gotta figure this out together. There's gonna be a lot of puzzle pieces that come together to ultimately make us, our customers, and everyone successful. And so, yeah, was excited to see that. Brendan Tolleson (04:20.252) Yeah, think they, mean, Clay has definitely embraced the user generated content with a community led go to market motion. And I mean, basically the community is their sales team. And so it kind of makes sense that they are embracing that and like just doubling down. So I think it's a really cool approach. And I think even here's what you were just talking about too on the, you know, it's funny guys, I'm not cheating on you, but I do have another podcast and I was talking to Sangram this morning from go to market partners. And he had this thought and I've been thinking about it and so that was redundant, but he shared an idea that I've been thinking about, which is he said the rev ops is the second most important function behind the CEO in the organization, which I don't know if that's true or not yet, but it speaks into what you were just describing Harris, which is at the foundation, you have a data model and someone needs to be able to be the translator of taking that data. And then how do you really action that and weaponize that and drive alignment between all phases of the organization from sales, marketing, CS, but also finance. And so there's an interesting take that I've been thinking about. I can use that as one thought. The second thought that I've been pondering is, gosh, other podcasts, I was talking to John Dick, SVP Customer Success at HubSpot. And one of the things that he was really alluding to is, if you know HubSpot's flywheel, the last phase of it is delight. And he said, actually, I'm thinking there's an evolution of delight to deliver. And this paradigm shift and this new world that we live in, that we constantly have to be delivering if we want to keep customers. And so this idea of retention is really around usage and adoption and making sure that we put heavy focus on that piece. And if we lose sight of that and we don't serve the customer, they will no longer be the customer. So as all of these things are starting to change with go-to-market, some things never change. And it just a good reminder, and we even talked about this a little bit last time, is this idea of the experience and the trust and the value we create has to stay front and center. with anybody that we serve. So that was a good reminder for me. Zach Vidibor (06:23.094) Yeah, it reminds me, it sounds a little silly almost now, but as a former proud dropboxer, we had like one of our company values was actually Cupcake, which sounds really foo foo, but it really stuck with me of like this idea that like there is that like... X factor like the sum is greater than the parts is what it was like meant to mean of like you need to delight you know through your your service your product your experience your you know the fit and finish of the pixels like those things all like communicate to your customers and your partner like can you trust us are we being thoughtful about the details and like i think yeah that that like concept of delight like that actually it really speaks to my heart and like what we're what we're trying to do and i think what companies like have to do like especially in like this era where it's going to get much much easier to like spin up the like the POC MVP version of a tool, it ain't gonna be too long until you just chat with, you know, Lovable and you go like, give me this app and it's like, all right, it looks like it's got all the buttons and knobs I need, like, know, does it, you know? And like, are, I think, where we all have to focus of like, yeah, we need to beat that and exceed that and like, that means trust and polish and care and thought and like, that leads to delight and hopefully that flywheel. Brendan Tolleson (07:48.186) Yeah, internally we have a principle, it gets into this idea of the cherry on top. like I even saw it this week with yesterday, we closed a deal and the VP of sales proactively wrote our VP of sales and essentially just raved about the experience with our sales rep. I don't think I've ever seen that before. It was nuts. But I think that is just like that experience matters. And I think we know that, but it's just... Zach Vidibor (07:53.07) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (08:07.47) So. Zach Vidibor (08:13.518) All right. Brendan Tolleson (08:16.185) it's becoming even more important in this age of AI. So, all right, back to the regularly scheduled program, guys, but that was good to just catch up on what's on your mind. We've done two episodes so far. We talked a little bit about email deliverability. We also talked about the content and the copy to use for the audience that we're going after, but let's kind of rewind, because I think there's a point we didn't talk about at the very beginning, which is this idea of what are the buyers doing, the of the word that's become... Zach Vidibor (08:19.736) Totally agree. Brendan Tolleson (08:45.562) that people galvanize around is this idea of intent. And so maybe a good starting point. So there's really three things I want to talk about. It's like, how do you collect the data? And then how do you analyze the data? And then how do you action the data? So those are kind of the three anchor topics that we'll talk about. But before we get into those three, let's actually clarify what the heck intent data is. I think some people know it that are more on the go-to-market engineering side. But for those that are... know, CROs that are kind of embracing this new world that we're living in. How about one of you guys start us off with what the heck is intent data and like what are the different ways we can think about intent data? Zach Vidibor (09:26.079) I think Harris is going to do a better job than me, so I'll let you start and I'll fill in. Harris Kenny (09:31.887) Yeah, totally. Well, I think the thing is it depends. There are a few different ways that think that different companies are kind of pitching this idea of intent. I think that in theory, let's just start like economics, right? In economics 101, you're like, supply and demand, the market works perfectly. And then every other day after that, you're like, and here's where weird stuff happens. So I think in a perfect world, have these... buyers that have done something to like indicate that they're raising hands, but it's like, what are we doing to capture things before a conversion event where they like they fill out a contact form or they book a demo. There's like this kind of like above the funnel area where historically you just had this like broadcasting marketing activity. And now it's like, look, should sales be active earlier? And then like, or should marketing be more proactive earlier in the funnel? And if so, how, why, what are they looking for? at either a contact level or an account or company or firm a graphic level. And so I think that like, that's like, you know, and I think the biggest thing about it is that everyone's trying to get right is that it's about continuously monitoring for signals rather than, and like when something happens, like a trip wire, you know, goes off and, and then we do something as a result of this, this event that occurred, this thing that happened. And so it goes from this kind of blanket messaging and approach to more individualized at the company or account or maybe even at an industry level. So I think that's what people are trying to do versus before building big lists and just kind of broadcasting out. So I don't know, that's how I would define it. It's like before the person raises their hand all the way, when their hand's coming off the desk, seems like teams are trying to capture that. And a lot of different companies are selling different versions of that, like Six Sense and RB2B and Warmly. And frankly, I have some issues with some of the intent. stuff. So I think it'll be interesting to talk about because I think it's really complicated. But I don't know, that's kind of my initial reaction. Zach Vidibor (11:33.516) Yeah, I think that's spot on and maybe like carrying that thought forward. think One thing that maybe gets lost in the conversation a little bit that I seem to pick up is like, intent is a very like, that's our language. Like the customer is not necessarily feeling like, I'm showing intent right now to buy. new endpoint detection, or name something, right? Like, they might just be like, hey, I happened to hit a page with a cookie on it that's tracking me and somebody else has interpreted that as like, high intent, they're researching, they're in the market to buy the solution. So I think like, that's one, like there's really incredible signals out there, but I think like, again, it's like the rare scenario that like, you know, the true hand raise intent, like, That's somebody comes to our site and raises their hand. Then you're dealing with this spectrum of what is that signal, what is that activity, and all intent isn't created equal. So I think that's where the companies that I see that make the most use of these signals, they have an understanding of where in the spectrum are they? Are they just poking around? they like? oblivious but like we've picked up on something that you know we can weave into a story a little bit and see if there's a thread we can pull on or is it something a little more tactical that we can really message around and then where you have to start to be careful is like you know obviously everybody now like there are these like Zach Vidibor (13:11.2) I would say more like commodity signals, hiring, job changes, know, roles you're posting for that you're hiring. Those things, again, like really powerful, but like everybody can see them. everyone's pouncing on them. Like you need to really have like, I think a like clear interpretation of like, what does this mean to our business? Is the fact that somebody just got promoted, is that really meaningful to like what we sell and what we do and the story and the value, or is it just, we're using it as a hook for something real time that is like this proof of work, hey, I saw something and I just want to pounce on it. And so yeah, that's where, yeah, maybe more to discuss there, but I think yeah, the intent language I think gets, lost a little bit, like that's our language, that's not customers showing necessarily, I have intent to buy. Brendan Tolleson (14:03.229) Right. Yeah, I like that way of framing it. Well, meaning that we need to be mindful of... Harris Kenny (14:03.439) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (14:11.243) who we're solving for, not who we're selling to. And I think just take a step back even, if we just think of what's going on from a go-to-market perspective, or at least we talked about this a little bit, but the buyer has more control than ever. That's one of the things we've alluded to. And the data suggests that, mean, or validates that rather, not just suggests it, in terms of how much the research is being done before they even engage with the sales team. So that's what's kind of created this whole idea of intense signals. And as you were just describing, Zach, there are like, I want to kind of... define this for some of the CROs and VP sales or whoever may be listening. Like the idea when Harris mentions before they engage with the contact us form, for example, there are different type of signals. And so there are, and you guys feel free to chime in here, but you talked a little bit about this, Zach, with even like hiring. Like there are gonna be things that people are posting about, like in terms of jobs, but there's also like social. There's things like G2, which is more on the, I'm looking at a software and application. It could be that I'm in a community that I'm talking about. These are just examples for the audience to be aware of. When we say intent signals, those are the places where they are researching or they're engaging with that would, for a company to say, they are in the market potentially for my product or service. So I just want to kind of set that foundation there. And Harris, I think where you were going, which is probably a good next step is, okay, what are some of those tools that you already mentioned, like a six-inch or RB2B that allow for companies to... capture that data. So maybe we'll go to that as the next step. we talked a little bit about what intent signals are, where they reside, but like how do you collect that? So Harris, you want to expand on your thought of, or it like you had an opinion here. So I'd love to hear the opinion on what you like or dislike about not only that category, but maybe some of the tools that you're seeing. Harris Kenny (15:56.911) Yeah. Well, I think, you know, uh, to be honest, I don't know. This is like a pretty technical area. So I know a bit about it, but not a ton. Um, the way most of these tools work is you have like a JavaScript snippet of code that you put on your website through like a Google tag manager. And you know, they're, they're taking site visit, the, vendors are taking site visits, and then they're using it to kind of, um, they have their own data and they're, they're kind of matching it off and saying, listen, like these events occurred. we, you had a site visitor, we're going to de-anonymize that visitor. We believe that visitor to be this person. I think all of these companies are trying to solve problems for people. have no like beef with any of the people or what they're trying to do, but like my general. skepticism is, you know, I feel like, I feel like the answer I haven't heard really well answered yet is why do you get credit for this conversion? Yes. Yes. You identified this, this intense signal, but like, it's almost like they're front running. It's like, like a parade is happening and then it's like a parade is like about to leave. Right. And then they're like standing by the door and they like jump out out of the door in front of the parade. And then they're the one like holding the baton. Zach Vidibor (17:03.438) Thank Harris Kenny (17:13.679) and being like, look, see, look at this lead we just brought in. And it's like, well, yeah, but like you were just the like kind of the last one to touch it. You kind of like, it's like front running ahead of where the normal marketing attribution would have picked up and said where the lead came from. I'm like, well, actually this is, you know, this is, don't want to mention any like specific names, but this is a Toasty lead, you know, this is a Toasty lead that came in. And so Toasty gets credit for finding the Toasty lead or whatever. It's like, well, yeah, maybe, I don't know. So, so I'm not, I'm not saying they don't deserve any credit for what they're doing. I just haven't heard a really compelling argument for like, Where's the value add like prove to me that had you not been there, this wouldn't have happened anyway. and so that, that, that's like the, most skeptical take on it is like, look, these are, these are people that are just taking their time bouncing around up here and normal marketing is doing its thing. And then, and then they come through and they come through, but, these intense signal, these intent tools are taking credit for it when, know, and, and, and again, like, I'm not a deep expert in this, but I've used a number of them before. And that's just kind like my general, my general take on it. Tell me if you tell me if you guys think I'm being unreasonable or if that's like uncharitable. Zach Vidibor (17:52.622) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (18:15.062) I'll take the counter maybe just to keep it going. I'd say like I agree with the like attribution is messy. I guess their argument would be to stick up for them and be like, well, you were gonna miss this, right? Like the alternative is you don't know anything. And so are you better off having again, messy data and attribution problem, who gets credit, blah, blah. What's the ROI? Harris Kenny (18:16.717) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (18:40.866) Totally agree, but I think the argument would be there are new tools emerging that give you, you you're getting a peek around another corner. And again, they might have been coming in another channel eventually anyways, but hey, if that gives you a leg up on, again, even if it's just, I think there are like really cool things, you know, that some of these, you know, I'm like. Harris Kenny (18:49.561) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (19:06.552) you know, shout out to the koalas and common rooms and other players like that, that they are trying to help give sales teams an edge as well of like, okay, I know this person was like crawling through our API docs. Like that gives me like, all right, mindset shift for this person I'm going to talk to. Harris Kenny (19:19.991) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (19:24.953) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (19:25.622) technical, they want to get in the guts, like, let's cut the BS with them, you know, versus like, all right, they're, they're floating on a solution page and looked at a case study, you know, like, I might orient myself a little differently. So like, there's some cool stuff happening there as well that I think is, they would argue like, there's an offline benefit of just like, helping you get a little smarter. Harris Kenny (19:30.148) Yeah. Harris Kenny (19:37.368) Yeah, yeah. Harris Kenny (19:46.445) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll steal, steal man, your argument against myself for a second here. I mean, it's kind of like, okay, let's just say, let's say we don't know if it works or not, but let's say your competitor is doing it. Well, okay, well now you kind of have a problem. Because if your competitor is doing it and you're not, and they're the one that are getting in touch with them, that's where I think we know for sure that it's more likely that they'll go with the competitor if the competitor is the one that's being more proactive about reaching them. And so, yeah, I don't know. Zach Vidibor (19:52.024) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (20:15.411) I'll share a few thoughts on this one. This is not a political podcast, but I've heard people use this idea of like, take something seriously, not literally about certain candidates. And I would take the same approach about attribution. I think we have to be mindful. Like it's helpful to know from an attribution perspective, but I don't take that literally. I think there is the... Harris Kenny (20:15.875) Yeah. Harris Kenny (20:23.235) You Harris Kenny (20:27.651) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (20:32.258) Thank you. Brendan Tolleson (20:41.652) there's a path to conversion, there's a point of conversion. And I think there is a very important distinction to make there. There are a lot of things that influence the buyer, as we talked about, they're doing a lot of activity before they engage with your team. I do believe that they will engage with your team, probably eight to nine times out of 10, regardless of these tools. And so I'm a firm believer in path to conversion. And I will argue that to the death. I mean, we've had RB2B, no offense, but we have not seen a lot of success from RB2B. That could be an user error, but like that's... We are definitely testing because we think it's an interesting idea and we want to be mindful of it. I think it kind goes back to what you were just saying, Zach. If you are like the desperate boyfriend that's calling the girl like nonstop, or at least trying to pursue a girl that has no interest, it's probably going to be a bad outcome for you. So I think there's ways that you need to it right. I think another example, Harris, that you just mentioned that I think is actually a very valid one, that I'll give an example of what we are doing at RP. We are saying, hey, let's test Reddit. Like we're seeing that there is a lot of engagement within our category within Reddit. There's a competitor of ours that has really gone after that space really well. And it's like, hey, if we're not going to engage there, we are going to lose out on conversations. And so we've done integration between Common Room and Slack where we get alerts for different HubSpot type of topics that allow us to now get into a conversation that we otherwise would never have the ability to get into. So I think there are ways that it can be leveraged really well. But the execution is just as Zach Vidibor (22:12.6) Totally, yeah, think, yeah, I like that idea of the path to conversion. that's gonna look a little different for every business, and all those signals you're taking in, they aren't all created equal. And your processes kinda dictate, are these things we pounce on right away, or are these things that kinda compound to that journey and we're... accruing that knowledge somewhere we can act on it, you know, X point where it we decide it matters and we have something meaningful to say but I think yeah, the the mistake is like All intent is good data if we can find a way if we can trace that back to a person like they're ready Let's start hammering them. Like that's when it like it's you're you're not gonna see the results you want Harris Kenny (22:43.183) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (23:03.863) Yeah. Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (23:07.218) was about say something about, are you about to? Harris Kenny (23:09.641) just like a quick thought on like, but so is this demand capture or demand gen, right? I think like with intent, it seems like it's demand capture, right? Like you've got some existing funnel stuff and we're capturing it. And so to me, I think that's like an important distinction. So it's like, if you're looking to like drive net new growth, like, yeah, some of these, they're gonna help like improving your conversion rates, but they're not necessarily gonna like necessarily grow your funnel overall. So that's like a little piece that I feel like is missing. But I think it's like, what are you gonna do about it? I like what you were saying before, Zach, about like, okay, if they're on this page, I'll say this. If they're on that page, I'll say that. That's where to me it starts getting like more like, okay, we're doing something here with this data and we're more likely to win. The Reddit example is a great one too, Brendan. I think that's a really, really, really good example of, or like a parallel to think about, of like, look, if you're not here, you know, it's gonna be harder to win, basically. Brendan Tolleson (24:03.121) Yeah, it's interesting. I agree that's a demand capture function. We've actually separated our marketing team into demand gen and demand capture. And so one is focused on the brand reputation and getting organic traffic. And the other side is focused really on how do we capitalize or convert on what has been generated from a top of funnel. I'm not fully convinced it's the right approach, but we said, hey, let's test it. I do think it speaks to a broader... Harris Kenny (24:10.169) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (24:28.401) problem around this whole idea of intent data, point of conversion, path of conversion topic. It's just, I think this goes back to the old playbook and how we had a very segmented and siloed departments. We're marketing did this, sales did this. And there's a finite budget. Everyone's fighting for that budget. And their KPIs are really based off of certain things that just are not aligned with the current buyer journey. And if we don't fix some of those key fundamentals, then none of really matters candidly. I say none of it matters. just we are going to be fighting for these, these, these victims, I guess is the right way to frame that. And it's like, that's, we have, that's kind of goes back to the, Hey, here's the new playbook. This is like a tool that everyone needs to be mindful of and likely take advantage of. But how do you set it up? What are the right realistic expectations and how do you drive the coordination between demand, gen demand capture, and ultimately the SDR sales to ensure you can actually execute this campaign. Zach Vidibor (25:23.438) Probably, yeah, if we're still fighting about, marketing says this is a website lead, because that's when they finally said, contact us, and sales is going, well, I emailed them six times, and blah, blah. If we're having that argument, we lost the plot to your point. You need to have orgs that are aligned around, all right, guess what? Good news, we're talking to them now. Let's figure out ways to like... Harris Kenny (25:24.28) Yeah. Harris Kenny (25:39.371) Mm-hmm. Brendan Tolleson (25:47.185) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (25:50.922) make the right marketing investments and right mix, but let's make sure it's always, we're aligned as an org where we're not competing for the OKRs that have us in that argument. Harris Kenny (25:54.383) Yeah. Harris Kenny (26:03.927) Yeah, yeah. I, I, I want to give you guys credit for repartners.io. I'll plug it. Go to the site. I really like the model that like left to right, the six squares. sorry, I don't, I don't, I don't remember all the like names of it, but I really liked that visualization that you had on the RP site. And so to me, cause to me that really lays out where this fits to me. intense stuff is adjacent to customer success and onboarding. And so to me, like if it's competing for budget, that's what it's competing with. It's like. Okay, yeah, we can convert these site visitors better, but we could also onboard better and improve our like first 30, 60 day activation. And so to me, those are like the closest to each other. It's not necessarily competing to like these far further out. If I'm, if we're using that RP like horizontal, if you're, if you're listening to this on audio, I'm it doesn't make any sense, but Brendan, you can probably explain it, but, but that, that model that you have on your site, to me, this makes a lot more sense when I think about it from that perspective. Brendan Tolleson (26:59.185) I appreciate that. Shout out to Colt, because Colt is the one that really designed that. Thanks to Sasha for designing it. I'm going actually put this point at you guys, and we can wrap this up for this episode. I think this will help flesh this whole idea out around 10 signals. Why are you doing this podcast? Zach Vidibor (27:24.734) Great question. think we are all, I mean maybe it goes back to a little bit about the community point earlier. think like, ironically, we're charting into this territory more AI, more tech, but people are hunting for like authenticity. Who am I doing business with? Can I trust these people? Are they building in a smart way? think for, I guess, yeah, just to speak to me, I think it's important that people know kind of what we're about, what we're building, how we're thinking, how we're seeing this like crazy foggy future play out. that's. how smart customers make investments is they go like, all right, I know there's something on the truck today, but like I'm entering into a relationship with a vendor and a partner that like, hopefully they continue to grow and evolve. And like, I wanna know where they're thinking. And then I think, yeah, I think where you're going with this like mechanically on the back of that, hopefully this is driving people to our sites and places where we might be able to detect those things. But I think, yeah, we're trying to. put something out that people can react to. Brendan Tolleson (28:32.335) All right, here's how about you. Harris Kenny (28:32.877) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess for me, I'll say like, don't want to call out any vendors, but I had two different intent tracking sites and I just, tools and I just pulled ripped about after they'd been there for like nine months. I just wasn't getting anything out of it. I think that like, I know that people are using them. Well, I'm maybe just not big enough or smart enough or have enough funnel to take advantage of it. But like, so those are just kind of my closing thoughts on the, like the whole intent thing. I know that people are finding results with it. I just think it's, don't know. in terms of the podcast itself, like, it's, not necessarily to, to, generate, demand and then hopefully they landed ours, maybe our site and find us like, then we, and then we reach back out to them. I mean, to be honest with you, like a lot of times I make decisions on vibes. Like I just, both of you individually, some of our, some of our smartest partners are using Octave. And, I think RP is like one of the most, it's hard to compare, but one of the most innovative hotspot partners in the hotspot ecosystem for. You know, period. And so it's like, look, if I get to talk about these things with you too, I think that my overall thesis is that I think that this is a market, this, where we sit and go to market is a, is specialization. I don't think that this is broadly going to be available to everybody. If there are fewer people working in go to market roles in two years, I would not be surprised at all. And I think that those fewer people will be paid more highly and be doing much more productive, efficient work. But I don't think that this category is growing in terms of like headcount spend. I think it's going to reduce in terms of headcount. and so to me, it's like, talk to the smartest people that I can find and learn from them and build cool stuff with them. Because I think that like the smart teams and, and aspiring people out there will find that content. but so yeah, kind of more of a vibes based thing than any, like, like marketing budget. am going to spend my time? I just, yeah, to be, that's how I make decisions. So maybe, beware of making decisions with me, but yeah. Zach Vidibor (30:23.886) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (30:27.627) I like the idea of buying on good vibes. That would be a... But I think the reason why I asked it, I appreciate what you guys share. I think it gets into, yes, I think there's an element of community growth. I mean, there's an element of upskilling ourselves and learning from each other and creating a fun dialogue around important topics that the market cares about. But I do think there's this idea going back to dark funnel path of conversion. It's like people are seeking... Zach Vidibor (30:28.173) No, I think... Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (30:53.967) content that educates them, that's value add into their business. And I don't know who's listening to this or when they're listening to it or how it impacts that, but it really speaks into this idea of the path is more important than the point. And these intense signals are certainly valuable and we should be tracking, we should be monitoring it. And I think, Harris, to your point, like if it's not set up properly, then it's probably not going to be effective. But that's why we need to be doing things like this because to where Zach was going to is... what is the buyer looking for? It's not just like, don't sell to me, give me something and like create that connection where I can trust you and I wanna engage with you. And so I think it's just a good reminder for us and for the audience. Like these type of things are ways to drive not only brand affinity, but can drive demand. And if we had the intent signals set up properly, we can actually convert those to have a relationship as opposed to transactions. Zach Vidibor (31:32.141) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (31:48.024) Yeah. Amen. Brendan Tolleson (31:49.262) Alright gents, any final thoughts as we wrap up for this episode? Zach Vidibor (31:57.39) I really like this topic. I feel like we could almost do another episode on this one and maybe a thought for next time for us is there's lot of people selling intent. I got a truck full of intent, do you want to buy it? And to this point of, is it demand gen or demand capture? How do we help people think about like... craft your own signals. Like what are things that are really specific to your business that you wanna go hunt for that they aren't just on the truck or something. It's harder to do, but like those are really interesting. Hey, somebody launched an app in a new country that needs a local, I don't know, I'm riffing here, but I think there's this other concept where it's starting to emerge of like, how do you create your own signals and then go hunt for them and like get really crystal clear intent on things I think could be a cool thing for the future that was just going in my mind. Harris Kenny (32:56.823) Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. My, my last thought is I just think like the teams that are using these, well, they're, they're building machines. Like a lot of my perspective in this episode has been just from my own company and like we're three people, you know, I'm, I am the entire go-to-market function. think the teams that I'm seeing using this effectively, they have like orchestration happening. They've got a rev ops function happening. They've got a lot of resources and sales reps to follow up and make the most of it. So I think that's like the biggest thing is I think that with intent, you know, You've to have the tools to collect the data. You've got to have the people and automation to analyze it. then the, you know, ultimately like the tools to like action it. And, so that's been my impression and like, we're an SMB basically, I mean, we're three person company. So I think like in the SMB space, I think it's like a lot harder to make use of it. I do think it's, it's more of a tool for the bigger players that have the resources to make the most of it. I'm not, I'm not like, and so, yeah, I think, I think it fits into this puzzle that we're talking about, but it's, but it's definitely for. well-resourced companies that have smart people that can deploy it. Because this stuff is not, not, not easy, in my opinion. Brendan Tolleson (34:00.461) It's not easy, it's not cheap. And I think to your point, if you don't have product market fit or even getting into the platform market fit, may not even have a need for it. And for RP, just as an example, we're about $10 million business and we got to $10 million. And this is literally our phrase, just make a butt ton of content. So I appreciate Harris, you enjoy how we create stuff, but that is literally the tagline. And so it's these type of things So if you're a smaller company you say, hey, I can't afford a six cents because it's freaking expensive. But there are other ways that you can do that to create content and create demand without leveraging the 10 singles because here's this point, if you don't have the team behind it, you're really just putting software on the shelf that's going to die. Sorry, six cents for calling you out. But that's my comment for the last thought for the day. So gents, thanks for joining for another episode of Going to Crossroads. Zach Vidibor (34:53.688) Right. Brendan Tolleson (34:59.373) This will be the last time you see Kimberly in here, but she enjoyed her appearance and you guys have a great rest of the day. Zach Vidibor (35:06.03) You too, man. Let the good vibes roll. See you guys. Brendan Tolleson (35:08.364) See ya! Harris Kenny (35:11.375) Thanks guys.

Outbound full-funnel reporting, lists, and workflows in HubSpot

Thu, 27 Feb 2025 00:00:00 GMT

We just launched Packages v5, the most advanced version yet for prebuilt reporting, automation, and data control in HubSpot. Now, outbound teams using SmartLead, Instantly, EmailBison, and SASMail can seamlessly track every touchpoint from email sends to closed deals. With full-funnel attribution, dynamic workflows, and automated block lists, your CRM becomes a true system of record for outbound success. Watch the full breakdown and see what’s new! ## Transcript 00:00 Hey there, my name is Harris Kenny, I'm the founder of OutboundSync, and I want to show you version 5 of something that we have been slowly improving for months and months now. And it is our packages. 00:13 Now you might wonder, what are packages? In this case, it is what allows you to make the most of your outbound data inside of HubSpot. 00:22 So, the whole idea behind our product is to, is that teams are adopting these cutting edge deliverability tools, like SmartLead, Instantly, EmailBison, and SASMail. 00:32 They're using these tools because it's the best way to get in front of people that might be interested in the problems that you're solving. 00:39 You land in their inbox and you get their attention. The problem is that, especially for teams at scale, they have a lot of other stakeholders for that data. 00:47 That's why they're using these exciting tools like Salesforce and HubSpot. They're using a CRM that allows different parts of the team to understand what's happening with Outbound and eventually hand that lead off, right? 00:58 Convert that into a deal, into a customer, and then have customer lifecycle management. Starting a conversation is just the beginning of the journey. 01:06 That's why we believe in pushing the data into the CRM. So that's the foundation. Outbound Sync, it's a data layer or a context layer, if you're talking about AI product. 01:19 And then the question is like, what do you do on top of that? This is where packages come in. Packages are prebuilt and native configurable lists, workflows, reports, and dashboards inside of HubSpot. 01:35 And I'm going to show you what our latest iteration looks like, what our thinking is. The idea is that once you install OutboundSync, you can get that data flowing in under half an hour. 01:43 And then with Supered and with our Supered packages, you can get reporting and workflows running in, in total under an hour, filling in and showing how that, uh, Outbound campaign is performing and even driving other things like paid advertising campaigns or dynamically blocking contacts. 02:00 That you're not, um, you know, re-engaging maybe other people at that company after you get a positive reply back. So we're going to start at the end and work backwards. 02:11 Every time we increment a new version of this, I like to put a little quote at the top here. We've got, you will either step forward into growth or you will step back into safety by Abraham Maslow, a really influential thinker. 02:24 In this dashboard, you're going to see, we've got the reports and then we've got the explanations beneath them that give you context and explain like how it works basically. 02:33 So this is a visualization of a funnel as it moves from contacts at the top of the funnel down to opens, replies, positive replies, meetings, and then ultimately what we really care about is deals. 02:48 And those deals that convert, Now this is not going to be easy because we're, we're moving between data models in the sequencing data model. 02:58 We have leads, but we have contacts. We have companies, we have campaigns, and we have to graft all that over to HubSpot's data model. 03:04 So most of these data points are at the contact level. I'm going to show you an activity level report below, but we do cut over to deals at the end. 03:13 Cause it doesn't really matter how many contacts are attached to a deal, right? We just want to know if it's a deal or not. 03:18 Now in this chart, we're showing our total sending volume by contact broken down by the latest activity on that contact. 03:29 So seven gives you a sense of the total number of emails sent. And for one of these contacts, that is all that has happened to it. 03:35 But for the other six, there were eight. Additional updates that were overwritten on top, the most recent event. One of them bounced, uh, two of them had a lead category update, one of them unsubscribed, and then two of them replied without getting a category on that update. 03:49 So an SDR is going to follow up and see what the nature of that reply is. So this gives you a sense of how many contacts are we engaging and then what's happening with those contacts. 04:01 These are configurable, so let me just show you something really quick here. Let's say you don't want to do this by week. 04:05 Let's say you want to do this, or excuse me, by month, but you want to do it by week or by day. 04:08 Because this is a HubSpot native report, it's not embedded as an iframe, you can go into this customize tab and you can change it. 04:17 Next we have the funnel. There's two different approaches to a funnel here. One is more of an events based funnel, where a contact is created, a meeting is held, a deal is created, and then ultimately marked as close one. 04:28 The other is more of a lifecycle stage funnel, where for a team that's using the lifecycle model in HubSpot, they can update as contacts move through and they can keep track of that conversion. 04:45 Finally we go back to the activity level. So this is looking at, okay, of the context, let's look at the individual number of emails that were sent, and then break down the sending volume. 04:54 And then the results that we're getting from that sending volume, let's break it down further by campaign name. OutboundSync is writing those campaign names, so you can now attach specific campaigns to specific outcomes in HubSpot. 05:08 Let's keep going. Now we can break down deals too. you can look and see what the deal stages are, and the number of deals, and the revenue associated with those deals. 05:19 Again, like, this is what we're really trying to accomplish here. We're running Outbound to generate revenue. And so what this dashboard does is it helps the RevOps and Sales Administrators and HubSpot Administrators, or Super Admins, at companies that are using OutboundSync, it helps them make the most 05:37 of the data and understand is Outbound working? Where is it working? What can be improved? And get, generate a full feedback loop that can be driven back up to the agency or the internal team that are, that is running these campaigns. 05:53 Now let's jump over to lists really quick and just show you a separate package we have is a folder of 14 lists. 06:01 Now, this is really powerful because this allows you to segment and look at the different contacts that are being engaged inside of HubSpot based on the events that occurred, but also based on association. 06:10 So we've got associated companies, associated deals, associated meeting books, there's lots of ways to see where things are going and then these lists are going to be used. 06:19 These lists are actually underlying some of the reports that you were looking at in the previous screen. And just one I want to show you when it comes to positive replies. 06:27 What is a positive reply? Well, yeah, it could be a positive reply that's marked as positive, a positive disposition. And here we've got that. 06:34 We've got Smartlead Instantly, EmailBison and SASMail. So we do have that disposition coming in, but there are other ways to consider it positive. And so we've prebuilt this for our customers and you can go in and you can change this. 06:49 But we've also added, okay, well, what if that contact moves forward in terms of life cycle stage? If we contacted someone through outbound and now they're an SQL, I would consider that likely a positive outcome, right? 06:59 Um, same thing with known, uh, booked meetings. And so the idea is that or deals, right? And so the idea is yes, we could literally market as positive and, but these little details are where we see attributions slip through the cracks. 07:13 And this is why we found whether it's, uh, teams at open send or agency clients that are finding that they're generating two to three times the pipeline that they were expecting. 07:23 And it's because of these dashboards that we're helping users discover that and discover the actual impact of outbound. I just want to show you workflows really quick. 07:34 All right, here we are. Now, we've got a folder of some pre-built workflows as well. Let's go to OutboundSync and let's just talk about replies because this is the most typical workflow that our users are focused on. 07:44 When a reply comes in from outbound, what do we do with it and how can we control what happens from inside of HubSpot? 07:50 In this example, we've got a reply coming in and we've got a little delay function to make sure that all the data catches up and then we're branching out. 07:59 If it's an interested lead, we can change the life cycle stage. Create a task, create a Slack or an email notification. 08:05 If it's not interested, we could create potentially a follow up to maybe set a trailing task. Maybe the timing isn't right, but it's also possible that it's a do not contact or an unsubscriber and opt out type of feedback that we get from the recipient and we can actually synchronize the subscription 08:21 status between HubSpot and SmartLead or instantly or EmailBison bison or SASMail. Um, so that you have a harmonized, uh, opt out essentially across platforms with the CRM in this case HubSpot being the system of record and also the system of automation that's driving that update across and rippling out 08:41 to the edge where the outbound platforms are running. Now there are a lot of other workflows that we have here too. 08:49 For example, if you use link tracking and you're sending maybe different variations of landing pages or offers, you can build branch logic into a HubSpot workflow so that if the link clicked is one thing, it adds them to a list or it performs a certain action. 09:04 You could also use these workflows to create call tasks. Let's just say you want to designate a certain, a really high value lead list and make sure that all of those leads also have also get phone call follow-up. 09:15 You can do that. If you're using Operations Hub Pro, you could conditionally send those webhook payloads out to a tool like Clay or directly to a provider like Lead Magic or Find Email and get a phone number. 09:26 You can also use things like opens as indicators of, hey, if we see this event occur, we want to do a follow-up based on that. 09:35 And the idea is that we provide this again, prepackaged so that you can hit the ground running. We're really proud to do this. 09:40 We spend a lot of time doing this and working with our users, incorporating feedback. We've got a lot of ideas that have been incorporated into this based on user feedback and deploying this alongside our users. 09:50 So this is version five of our, um, overall, I would say packages approach the dashboard being the one that we've spent the most time iterating on. 09:59 Um, but workflows and lists have also gotten a lot of attention. I'd love to know what you think. I'd love to know what you think is missing. 10:07 This is a huge part of what we do. Our goal is to make that outbound data actionable inside of the CRM and we're really proud of how we're doing it. 10:13 And we really appreciate all the support and feedback that we've gotten from users to make it better. All right. Thanks for watching and have a great day.

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep2: Writing personalized sales emails with AI

Fri, 21 Feb 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In the second episode of GTM Crossroads, Brendan Tolleson, Harris Kenny, and Zach Vidibor discuss the importance of effective email copy, market insights, and the evolution of personalization in outbound marketing, user feedback on email strategies, how data drives outbound, and the central role of CRM systems like HubSpot and Salesforce. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript Brendan Tolleson (00:04.579) All right, everybody, we are back for another edition. I should probably be in the screen. We're back for another edition of Go To Market Crossroads with my friends, Zach and Harris. Gentlemen, how are we doing today? Happy Valentine's Day, I should say. It is Valentine's Day as we do this podcast episode. So what are your plans for Valentine's Day? Zach Vidibor (00:17.578) We're doing it. Zach Vidibor (00:25.052) my god, put me on the spot. I'm about to be busted later today because there are no plans. Plans are, stay out of trouble, but that, I already blew that. Brendan Tolleson (00:30.037) You haven't planned this, is what I'm hearing? Brendan Tolleson (00:37.667) Yeah, sounds like you're already in trouble. Alright, Harris, what you got? Harris Kenny (00:41.88) Well, a year ago today, just about our second child, we went into labor, my wife was doing all the work, went into labor with our second child. his birthday is mixed with Valentine's, so be family activities celebrating him. Otherwise we're keeping it pretty simple. We've got our hands full, so no big trips to Paris or anything like that anytime soon. Brendan Tolleson (01:07.789) Well, I did not plan this, but you know, it's interesting. I too have a child whose birthday is today. So my son, my son Wes is nine today. So we share that in common. Harris Kenny (01:16.332) There you go, okay. Harris Kenny (01:20.811) wow, that's awesome. Zach Vidibor (01:21.908) But it's a great excuse to not have plans for the spouse. Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (01:23.875) It does help. It's not good for him, but it is good for me. Harris Kenny (01:28.332) Yeah. Yeah. Well, happy birthday, Wes. Yeah, it is interesting how much how much when you grow the team, how much it affects your ability to spend time together as co-founders. Brendan Tolleson (01:37.603) Well guys before we get in the topic today, which I think it'd be fun to talk about really around email copy So last week we got into deliverability. So hey, once you get in the inbox, how do you create a message? That's compelling enough for somebody actually take action on that. but before we do that I thought it'd be kind of fun Maybe is there anything you saw this week that you thought was interesting or that you want to highlight? That's top of mind for you that's going on in the market or in the go-to-market Zach Vidibor (01:37.974) I love that. Brendan Tolleson (02:06.645) landscape. I'd love to open it up just because I think it's a fun topic for us just to talk through a little bit. I can start if that's helpful, but I'll give it to y'all in case you got anything. Harris Kenny (02:17.314) I got a little bit of like a user, user feedback or listener feedback, I should say. I don't know if he wants to be on the show, so I won't say his full name, but his name is Colin, founder of a B2B SaaS company. And he is scaling up this motion that we're talking about here. You we talked about a bit last week. He's using instantly. And it was just like this very basic question of, okay, so I'm setting up these secondary domains, but I have my main email. when I get a reply, like where am I supposed to reply from? And it's like, actually that's a lot more complicated of a question than you think. And so I think like what's happening as like these tools are getting picked up by teams at scale. There's these questions like, okay, well I've got 13 reps, 25 reps. are they supposed to be logging into like five different Gmail accounts? Am I supposed to be using my Sequencer inbox? Can they stay in the CRM? Like I want them to be in HubSpot. Where are they supposed to work out of? And so I thought it was a really good question. And I think in general, like we're starting to see the growing pains that come with these tactics being adopted by teams at scale. you know, the answer to him, by the way, was like, it's best to keep that secondary connection. So you'd want to ideally, if the sequence are like instantly and smartly, they have a universal inbox. Ideally you would respond in there and then sort of post them like meeting conversion, you would roll it over to the CRM. But I think like that one question reflects like a much larger thing of like, okay, this is great. We want to use all bound. We want to grow, but we have like internal stakeholders and process rules and fields that need to be completed or properties that need to be filled out or whatever. and so that I think is going to be what's like the thing over the course of this year that people are to be coming to grips with of like, great, I'm in the inbox, but like that's 2 % of my problem from, you know, our sales orgs perspective. Zach Vidibor (04:03.232) Yeah. I love that. think maybe slightly different, but like I was really encouraged to see this week some friends at Koala and Tofu both raised some nice series A rounds. I think they're, I guess what excites me about that is like seeing momentum around tools that are really trying to help people like. be more sophisticated and be really intelligent. I think not to pick on the AISDRs too much, but they got a lot of hype and lot of attention. I definitely lean on the side of the fence of like, hey, go to market is really nuanced for every company. And I think you need a tool set that can be. tuned and dialed in a bit more and I know they're on a same path and kind of spiritual beliefs so I was really excited to see the momentum they have and think there's lots, everything we're talking about I think they play into that world too so that was encouraging to see. Harris Kenny (05:13.806) Well, it's like a bet on teams doing things differently, I mean, fundamentally, it's like, there's different ways people might tackle it, but investors and these teams and the people they're hiring and joining them believe that things aren't gonna stay the same, right? Over the next three to five years. I mean, if you're raising a series A, that means you've got some traction. Zach Vidibor (05:17.086) Right, right. Zach Vidibor (05:31.806) Mm-hmm, for sure. All right, spill the beans, What's your... Brendan Tolleson (05:32.951) Yeah, I think it's Well, don't know before we do that, I think going to what something you said to Harris is like we I would love to have guests on. by all means, I think it'd be really cool to bring in folks that are doing cool things around this topic that we can all learn from because we're all learning together. And I think the more that we can bring people into the conversation, the better. From my perspective, I think I just wrote about it actually this morning, but I'm actually wearing a shirt that says how spot on it for those who listening. They had another banger earnings report. and what I think is interesting to this group. beyond just the fact that they now have 248,000 customers. think they're very forward thinking around AI. They talk about all the time. know AI is the biggest buzzword, but think just seeing some of early signals and traction that they're starting to see really around this agents concept. I don't know if you guys saw just the level of growth within the agent side was pretty staggering around what they're seeing. it's 900,000 users are starting to embrace this. And Zach, you were talking about the AI SDR, but even the way it's being used, not just for bots, but also being, not just for content either, but really around driving meetings and the amount of meetings they create as a result of AI assisted sales development. think there's just a really cool traction we're starting to see. that was the fun update for me is just seeing what's going on in their world that we play a small, very, very, very small role in. Sorry, I got a kid in the background, so we're gonna have to deal with that. Not the birthday boy, this is the youngest who is a... Zach Vidibor (06:50.571) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (07:00.928) Yeah, yeah, definitely. Zach Vidibor (07:05.429) The one that's going on time out. Brendan Tolleson (07:09.877) Yeah, is unpredictable to say the least. All right, guys, well, let's get into the topic of the day that we're really here to talk about, which is really more what's going on, or how do we think about the copy that we're leveraging within these emails? So I know we talked about AI, but really, how do you take advantage of this? Personalization at scale used to be like, insert first name with a generic email, and now there's so much more things. Harris Kenny (07:10.638) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (07:14.037) Well. Harris Kenny (07:14.318) birthday party crasher. Brendan Tolleson (07:39.703) So many more things you can do where AI can be a tool, but there's still really this aspect of relevancy. So I'll open up to you guys, maybe as it relates to what's changed and why should this be exciting and ultimately why is this important? So let's start with the foundation and then we can get into some tips and tricks that you've seen be successful in this new world that we live in. So Zach, maybe I'll hand it over to you to start. Zach Vidibor (08:02.74) Yeah. Well, this is a near and dear to my heart, of course, messaging and positioning that ultimately turns into turns into copy. I think, yeah, there's lots of like tactical what's the length plain text versus not like all those things we can kind of talk about. But I think, you know, when we think about copy and like what we're trying to help our customers do. But I think it's just like, you know, how everyone should be thinking about it is You need to speak your customer or prospect's language. Like how do you speak to them in words and problems and pains that they, you believe they feel, right? Like I think the real key and like where I see people being most successful is. You don't want your prospect to feel like they need to solve a riddle to understand what you do. It should be pretty clear, we have a hypothesis about a pain or problem you have, and here's what we do for that. Make it real simple, make it clear, make it actionable, and it's okay if you're wrong. I think that's probably the biggest thing, it's better to have a strong hypothesis or a perspective that you lead with in your copy and your message. than allowing your customer to figure out if this is for me or not based on some more vague and broad value proposition. I think you get a lot more... it becomes effective for two reasons. It's more effective because if you're more narrow, you're more precise, like with a copy, you're gonna get people more likely to bite of like, okay, yeah, that's me. You're also like, you're kind of constraining your test more narrowly so you can start figuring out like, okay, when I say this type of thing to this type of person. Zach Vidibor (09:52.522) we aren't getting any bites. like, that's valuable signal too, right? So I think like, you know, copy is, you know, I guess one big thing is like, it's not just about finding what works, you need to find also what works by virtue of what doesn't work. And if everything, if you let everything kind of breathe too much, and it gets kind of broad and wide and big values and big platitudes, it becomes really difficult to know like, all right, when it works, what worked, you know? So I don't know, maybe that's a... place to start, but I'm excited to dig in on this more. Brendan Tolleson (10:23.97) Yeah. Harris Kenny (10:24.428) Yeah, I think it's a really good start. Zach, I want to just just fling a fastball right back at you here. So, cause I really want to know, I don't, I really want to your answer to this question. I know this is like, we were going to go sometimes high level or sometimes deep. Okay. So like old emails was just generic copy. Then it was high first name, right? Then let's like skip ahead a little bit and you have people start using like things like, agents like Collagent to write like a templated GPT inspired email, like Okay. So I'm emailing a CRO and I work in B2B SaaS and do a couple of bit of tweaks, but that's like working off of generic public data set. I would love for you to just explain like just with, mean, we can talk our own shop a little bit here, like with what Octave does, like why does it matter to have your own ICP data? If you want to be, you know, using AI and you want to doing this personalization that showed up in your copy, like what's the difference between like pulling from a public data set versus something that you've curated, whether it's in octave or it's somewhere else, like, is it just a little bit better or is it like much different? Why is it different? I'm curious if you guys don't mind me going deep on that. Zach Vidibor (11:25.76) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (11:32.854) Yeah, I think it's like a good, yeah, slightly, it's getting the heart of the matter question. I think what people respond to is like, if you lean too much on like the public stuff that's already out there, everyone's like, yeah, I know that like, you're telling me about myself, got it. You know, so it's like, you. Right, right, right. It's like that. Harris Kenny (11:53.804) Right, right, yeah, yeah. Hey, as a CRO, you want your reps to book more meetings, right? It's like, sure. Zach Vidibor (12:01.682) It's important, there's some element of, like, guess how we think about it is, like, the... the public stuff is like, you're copy, like you need to have some proof of work, right? And like, think it's like, again, like I don't think people care at the end of the day, like did AI do the work or not, right? Like these are systems we set up to hopefully be like smart and like do the work for us. But it's like, you need a little bit of proof of work of like, we've done something to try and assess you're a fit in our market and you're a fit for X reason. And then I think that also needs to be grounded, I guess like, yeah, and like talk in our book a little bit of like, we have a perspective, like we built a company and we built this solution for a reason and we think it's good for you for X. And like, I think it's like the marriage of those things, which is like, you know, it's kind of like the proof of work and it could be how we found you. could be like why you're relevant. It could be something very timely signal based, you know, it could be the scenario of like, Hey, we saw you do that. You know, we saw you start this GitHub repo. Like it's. Harris Kenny (13:03.918) Hmm. Zach Vidibor (13:04.373) that code tells us you're interested in something like super specific, right? So like you do have those moments where you can like latch onto something and like just sink your teeth into something that's this is the reason and that's all I need to talk about. But I think like the, I guess like the majority case is like, you kind of got to blend this like, yeah, like we got to you for a reason. I want you to like quickly pick up like why we got to you, but like here's our story and I need you to kind of react. I don't know. Brendan Tolleson (13:31.043) So if you're... Zach Vidibor (13:32.683) if that answered your question or not. Brendan Tolleson (13:35.811) So if 1-800-Flowers was listening to this podcast episode, they should be mindful of the fact that you said you didn't have any plans for Valentine's Day, and that would be good trigger to get you to actually. Zach Vidibor (13:46.006) I'm getting about to get retired. Harris Kenny (13:48.014) Yeah, snooze that for 11 months. then in whatever next year, they're like, hey, Zach, it's coming up again. Are you ready? Zach Vidibor (13:56.438) Don't blow it again, brother. But yeah, I'm curious, does that resonate with you, Harris? Or what do you think of the blend of the public versus the Harris Kenny (14:08.3) Yeah, yeah, definitely. mean, because we play around, I run a little bit of our own outbound. Like I sent a cold email the other day. It was a one off, I wrote it manually. And I'm gonna read it not, just because we're on a show and it's just helpful, I think, for people to hear it. It's short. So I'm emailing a SmartLead partner because we integrate with SmartLead. We're helping a bunch of other agencies sync data for their clients from SmartLead into HubSpot. We're finding they're driving two to three times more leads than their clients realized before because we push over company level tracking. So any conversion is getting captured and now the agency gets credit. Can I show you the loom I made with how it works? Question mark. And I got a response like two minutes later and the interesting thing is like I have in the past sent emails sort of similar to this, but I thought of you with Octave because HubSpot has like a really basic ICP widget. that I went through and I did this exercise and I went back and forth to chat GPT and I was like, yeah, like this is really what Octave does like the high, much higher level version of this. But anyway, I got started with it. And it was that like two to three times more leads thing. I realized like that was the key to make the copy convert. And that's like real data. An actual agency partner of ours went into their HubSpot customer's portal, looked into the dashboards, looked at the attribution and was literally like, there's two and a half times more. here that we influenced in pipeline than we thought. And then another agency did a similar thing. It was like they booked 52 meetings instead of they had only gotten credit for 17. And I think like I from the outside had always heard this and I've seen this copy. And even when I ran my agency before talking to clients and it always felt like people were kind of making up these numbers of like, oh, we can double year this or that or whatever. And so I do think it has to be rooted in real data. Zach Vidibor (15:59.556) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (16:00.492) like more meetings, I'm SCR, I want more meetings. But if you're in your industry, reps are booking five meetings a week, and so then you say, we can take you from five to seven, that matters more. That little bit of detail where it fits. And so that was kind of my thought on copy for the week, was when I was reviewing that, like, yeah, that makes sense that you would have more impact by this amount. Not just this generic 10X, you're... Zach Vidibor (16:03.691) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (16:15.094) Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Zach Vidibor (16:30.132) Right. Right. Harris Kenny (16:30.19) revenue or something like that. that's kind of where I think about, I was thinking about you and thinking about why the ICP matters versus a generic like public GPT being like more better. You know what I mean? Zach Vidibor (16:38.196) Right. Yeah, I think like I'm glad you read that example because like that's like a case study and like hey I know who you are here in agency I know a tool you might use great like that that's the proof of work right and then the copy has this inherent hypothesis of like like I know you're anxious about like just being an appointment setter and like you you live and die by this kind of metric I can help you improve that metric and then great awesome opt in CTA. Can I send you more? Right? Like, don't ask me to look at my calendar and get stressed out. Like, yeah, I want to see that video. So like that, I think that was like beautiful. Harris Kenny (17:21.794) I do think it's the best cold email I've ever written and I've been doing this for a while. And I was like finally like, like did I, like it made me most optimistic about what we're doing. I was like, do I have it? That's the thing about cold outbound I think that people don't realize is like, if what you're doing isn't working, outbound isn't gonna fix it. But it can validate if it is working, if you know. And that was why I was like, even when I was writing it, I was like, yeah, this is good. Like it makes sense. I don't know, Brennan, what do you think? Zach Vidibor (17:45.867) Yeah. Harris Kenny (17:49.518) What are you seeing with RP and like, what copy are you seeing working? mean, this is like a big thing, difference of like inbound and marketing versus sales emails. What do think? Brendan Tolleson (17:59.427) I think with what you were just describing, one thing that was not caught or wasn't said yet that I think made that effective is we forget this device. And what I mean by that is brevity is really important. So it needs to fit on a phone because I bet 90%, especially if you're going after executives, they're probably looking at their phone. They're not looking, they're not on their laptop all day long. And that example that you just shared with me, There's probably three sentences, maybe four. And so it can actually fit within that screen for most people to actually take action on. I think that we often forget like... Well, what we've seen is that people forget how to actually write. What I mean by that is not that they can't write, but how to actually write. So it's one in terms of the length. Yes, it's what Zach described in terms of hyper-targeted with value impact, but it's also conversational. And people don't read. They skim and scan, especially if it's long. So I can't tell you how many times. I mean, I got hit up probably. 15 times. I just deleted every single email that and it's the same person. And if I don't want to shame somebody on this podcast, if you listen, but if you email me one more time, I will blacklist you, which will go back to your domain square that we talked about before. But we've actually seen Harris Kenny (19:14.702) the Brendan Tolleson (19:22.211) Well, a shout out to both of guys, but a recent example that we saw, we doubled the target for our customers using Octave plus out bouncing. And so it's, for us, it's the things you just described. In addition to what I just mentioned of just making sure that's very tight, relevant for that buyer. That's what's been working for us. And I like what you just said too, Harris, which is, or I think it was actually Zach. Don't force the meeting link because that does create stress. Like you gave a value add without a request. And so I know a lot of people like ask, like you want to ask for something in return, but no, it's like give it away. There's actually a lot more value in of just being there to provide insight as opposed to expecting something in return. Harris Kenny (19:47.074) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (19:50.74) Right. Zach Vidibor (20:02.361) Yeah, it's like I think it's one thing I tell people all the time is like you're you're better off like try and do discovery in your cold outbound versus asking for the meeting like ask an interesting question and like you just you Engage with people right like hey, hey, what payroll system do you use like if that's relevant, right? Like that's so much more likely to get our system. Oh, no, we don't use bump We don't use ADP. We use gusto what I like and then boom like I got a little piece of info there like and like Asking for the meeting right away, it's just, so unlikely to convert and you have this opportunity where like people are, you know, there is like a... you know, some level of like fiduciary responsibility for like executives and people in these leadership positions of like, I need to kind of know what's going on. Like you can't shut yourself off to the world completely even if you hate getting cold emails. Like there's stuff happening out there that you don't know about. So like make it easy to like engage with people, give them information. They are, a lot of people are going through their emails and scanning them and like just make sure those are like high quality moments that you're creating. Like I think that that's the idea. Like this stuff compounds over time and Just make sure you're putting out those good moments. It's clear. There's no riddle. They associate our name with cool customers and problems we solve. It'll work. It's gotten harder, but it's not impossible. Harris Kenny (21:26.414) It reminds me of there's a Jed Mahrle. He does app on stuff. He kind of got started at Panda Doc, but he had a classic one when Panda Doc was competing against DocuSign. He would just like, it's hard to know if someone's using DocuSign or not because it's not, you can't find it with built with cause it's like not on their website really. So that's not discoverable very easily. Some tools have that kind of tech, tech, technographic data, but a lot, a lot, it's hard to find. Anyway, he would just assume because they're the gorilla in the room. They're the category creator, the Republic of Trader company. He would just be like, Hey, Zach Vidibor (21:30.432) Yeah. Zach Vidibor (21:51.433) Right. Harris Kenny (21:53.782) Like, you you don't have to use DocuSign anymore, whatever, his emails were better than that. But you know, hey, you know, we're better than DocuSign, here's why. And like, almost every time, because they were so dominant, it was right that they were using DocuSign. Or, like you said, they would be like, actually, we're using, you know, whatever, something else. So sometimes with copy, like you do all this extra refinement, but other times you just kind of, you can make some assumptions, I think, depending on your category, and especially if you're a big challenger brand, you know, you can kind of assume a little bit. Zach Vidibor (21:58.518) Alright. Zach Vidibor (22:04.98) Right, right. Zach Vidibor (22:09.503) Right. Zach Vidibor (22:20.584) Right, right. Yeah, yeah. think that's like, we were like talking about that before too, just like... Don't be shy about having a perspective and taking an educated guess. People will appreciate that more than if you're trying to do the super personal, saw you went to this school or you previously worked at blah, blah, blah, and you're trying to make these crazy connections. That is so much more likely to fail than like, yeah, good educated guess. I bet you use AWS and Azure. that's probably the case. like now use that as like the launch point for like something relevant to what the hell you do, right? Harris Kenny (22:59.493) I, yeah, I totally agree with that point. Especially if you compare it to the alternative. If the alternative is like weird personalization that doesn't matter, yeah, totally. Brendan Tolleson (23:08.643) I Zach Vidibor (23:09.332) Yeah, right. Brendan Tolleson (23:10.029) Just to kind of bring a full circle, I know we're about on time, but I liked how you were going, Harris, terms of like, went from cold email, then we have like, first name personalization token, to then getting into being able to capture even more personalization. Zach, I think you're probably more on the forefront as it relates to where the market is going, candidly than I am, or probably Harris to that extent. Like, what are you seeing as like that next frontier that our audience should be aware of, and what they really can do? I know we talk a lot about AI, but what are those things that you're seeing? at Octave or in the market that you would say, hey, if you're not already doing these things, go to Market Leader. You really need to start considering this for this year. Zach Vidibor (23:45.59) Mm-hmm. Zach Vidibor (23:50.134) I think maybe like one of the big things like we're seeing on the horizon. Yeah, again, like we want to be a part of it is like there's been the world has been like really built around like templates with variables and split testing and A B testing. like that stuff is good. And you don't, you don't want a million variables, but like part of the magic of AI and having more like fluidity in your story is like, let's not do a B testing. Like let's do A through N testing. know, like let's have some more good shots on goal and figure out what's working. And it's like, I think it's been, know, there's like teams have always kind of known this of like you do, you know, you get these campaigns that are kind of like, you know, this has one story, A story and B story and like. you look at like maybe performance and it's like, it's hard to judge like is the copy working or not? We don't really know. But then if you like inspect it and somebody looks at like every interaction, you start going, it's like, really it's like these type of people and these types of things we talk about when you're at this type of company. And like, I think that kind of like alpha like ends up getting buried in like all these like narrow templated approaches, but like there's stuff in there that works. I think like what we're seeing is like, Hey, be open the aperture of like do test more ideas at once so can really figure out like where that alpha lies. Yeah like what's what's getting picked up in the market? Brendan Tolleson (25:22.563) And what about, and maybe as we wrap up, Harris, or feel free, Zach, too, on this one, it's, I think there's always just a mindset that these type of tactics are really designed for, like, we think outbound, whatever we're to call it, whatever that word is, but prospecting for a new customer. But I think what we've, at least I'm saying for myself, I shouldn't speak for everybody. It seems like there is just as big of an opportunity, if not bigger, for your own like nurture database. And so instead of getting into like these traditional nurture campaigns, there seems to be a really... I think a really exciting opportunity now to say, like instead, you have this database now over a period of time, like how can we start to take those signals to actually drive something with all this technology that's now been created? So I don't know, Zach Harris, if you have any thoughts on that as we wrap up, because I think that could be an interesting topic. Harris Kenny (26:14.974) I mean, I totally agree with that. I mean, I'll just answer briefly, which is that like, I think the CRM needs to be the place that this data lives and you need to hook other things into it to be able to monitor signals. And ideally human beings are making these judgment calls of like, when's the right time, what's the right message. And they're using automation and agents and other tools to help them do that efficiently. Zach Vidibor (26:36.682) Mm-hmm. Harris Kenny (26:39.214) And I think that if we start monitoring companies earlier, we can send them better messages when things come up. So I totally agree. To me, the linchpin for that is the CRM and is the process in the CRM and the data hygiene and the like hierarchy of like how properties are set up and having the right views for the right reps and you know, the stuff that RP does. I mean, to me without that, it's you're just. So I agree, but only if you have a foundation under your feet to do it. Otherwise, like you're better off, it'll be easier to just go rip some lists from databases than try to do this with like a, like a bad system, I think. Cause you're just going to annoy people. You're going to email the wrong people and you're going to email customers and you're to email like, you know, former employees. you have, I mean, who knows, you know, so yes, yes, but only if, only if you have a good foundation, think. Yeah. Zach Vidibor (27:31.83) Yeah. Brendan Tolleson (27:32.035) Sounds like good future episode. I'll let you noodle on that one as well. Zach Vidibor (27:35.998) Yeah, I'll end with a quick amen to that. yeah, if all this stuff, if all this experimentation happens in a, you know, the satellite office down the street, like, it's not going to work. Like, it needs to be part of the part of the mothership. amen. Brendan Tolleson (27:51.157) I think that's crazy, not crazy. I do think there is this idea that I can just do it outside of that and just continue. I think testing to your point is really valuable, but if you're not tracking and monitoring, then you're really doing it yourself and ultimately the customer disservice. Alright guys, well know time is up, it was great catching up with you guys. Thanks for the tips and tricks as it relates to email copy. We'll get back at it for another episode of Good Mark and Crossroads next week, but until then, have a great week. Zach, hopefully you figure out some plans for Valentine's Day and Harris. I hope your birthday party goes well. Zach Vidibor (28:24.154) Alright, right. Episode 2 in the bag onto the real important stuff. Alright, see you guys. Brendan Tolleson (28:28.003) See you guys.

New Salesforce Features: Activity Logging & Automated Block Lists

Wed, 19 Feb 2025 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync’s latest Salesforce integration brings two powerful automation features for Smartlead, Instantly, EmailBison, and SASMail: logging outbound activity as tasks and dynamic block lists sourced from Salesforce reports to prevent cold outreach to key contacts. Watch the video below or read the transcript to learn how these new features work. ## Transcript 0:00 Hey everybody, my name is Harris Kenney. I'm the founder of OutboundSync and I'm very excited to show you two new features that we are pushing out for our Salesforce integration. 0:10 The first thing is going to be showing how we are logging activities from sequencing tools like SmartLead, Instantly, and EmailBison into Salesforce. 0:19 And the second one is going to be how we're taking reports from Salesforce and then putting pulling that data back and pushing it to the block list so that we're not cold emailing important contacts or companies, uh, or accounts from Salesforce. 0:34 So this is just a quick preview of these two features and we're going to have a lot more coming and a lot more Salesforce features are coming this month, but I just wanted to give you a quick sneak peek of what we've been working on because we're pretty excited about it. 0:45 So first thing here is the OutboundSync. Activities. We now support the ability to log outbound activities as tasks. Now, the cool thing about this is that we have a configurable subject line, and so you can use this to have custom properties as well as variable snippets from your outbound data pushed 1:08 into the subject line of the task. Now I used the test mode. In Outbound Sync, we have this little testing feature where you can send custom payloads and then see how they interact with your HubSpot or Salesforce environment, and here you can see these events listed, and so we've got some standard text 1:28 , which is like the brackets in the OS, and then we've got some variable text, which is the sales engagement platform and the event type. 1:36 And then the subject line of the email, but there's just tons of different combinations that you can put in place here to get different reports off of the task object in Salesforce. 1:44 And the second thing I want to show you is using reports. So now you can use reports as a source for your block list, and Salesforce is really configurable in its reporting. 1:54 And so we actually also give you the ability to select multiple fields and then from those fields you can push to the block list. 2:00 Now from email addresses, you can block single contacts or you can extract the domain and block a whole domain. And then of course from URLs or full domains, you can block the whole domain. 2:11 And so this is just an example report that we built showing the filter criteria inside of Salesforce. And, you know, you can do customers, channel partners, open opportunities, any number of criteria. 2:24 Add multiple fields and then push those over. So we're going to have really in-depth documentation in our knowledge base and, uh, more detailed feature walkthroughs coming up. 2:34 Um, but there's just two of the things that are live in Salesforce this week in outbound sync, and, uh, we've got a lot more coming. 2:41 So really appreciate, um, all the support and feedback from Salesforce users. Uh, I, people kind of like, don't believe me, but actually we're really excited really enjoying building for Salesforce right now, um, really enjoying what's possible, very, very robust platform with just tons of data points 2:57 and fields and things that we can write to, um, that our users are now using to build great reports and flows and, um, other automation and enablement and revenue attribution and just really cool stuff. 3:09 And, uh, that's not to mention. Agent force. We'll see which we're talking with Salesforce, um, themselves, uh, actually today, the day that I'm posting this video, um, about agent force. 3:21 So yeah, really excited about what's coming. Thanks for your support. Let me know what questions you have, what you'd like to see. 3:25 If you're using these types of sequencing tools, if you're using clay and Salesforce, um, what would you want to see? 3:30 Let me know.

GTM Crossroads Podcast Ep1: Optimizing Email Deliverability

Tue, 11 Feb 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In the first episode of GTM Crossroads, Brendan Tolleson, Harris Kenny, and Zach Vidibor explore the shifting landscape of go-to-market strategies with a focus on email deliverability. They discuss the impact of AI on sales outreach, the importance of clean infrastructure, and how targeted messaging can improve engagement. ## Subscribe The GTM Crossroads podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. ## Watch ## Disclaimer Please note that the GTM Crossroads Podcast is co-hosted by Harris Kenny (Founder, OutboundSync), Brendan Tolleson (Co-Founder & CEO, RevPartners), and Zach Vidibor (Co-Founder & CEO, Octave). Each episode features discussions on go-to-market (GTM) strategy, revenue operations, and sales execution from industry leaders. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual speakers at the time of recording and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of their respective organizations. Statements made during the conversation may be speculative, evolving, or based on personal experience rather than company policy. This transcript below is provided for reference and accessibility but should not be interpreted as official guidance, policy, or endorsement by any company mentioned. ## Transcript 00:05 Well, everyone, welcome to GoToMarketCrossroads. Uh, this is actually our first episode. And, uh, look, the intent of this, uh, this series is really to give you the GoToMarket owner actual insights on how to effectively go to market. 00:20 Um, you know, what we've identified is really just it's harder than ever to win, uh, which is ironic because everything you're hearing the market tells you it's so easy. 00:30 Uh, and so what I've decided to do is to create this GoToMarketCrossroads, um, Channel and invite some of my friends that are much smarter than me, they can help educate and equip you to learn how to effectively go to market. 00:42 So I've got Harris Kenny with me as well as Zack Vidibor, um, to really go through a variety of topics. 00:49 Um, but before we do that, Harris, Zack, welcome. I would love to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself. What do you do? 00:57 Um, and then we'll, we'll get into a fun topic. Sounds great. I'll go first since my name came up first. 01:03 So yeah, thanks for having me. My name's Harris Kenny. I'm the founder of OutboundSync. Um, we are basically a cross-platform router for sequencing tools and bringing that data into CRM. 01:14 And I previously ran a HubSpot solutions partner agency. So I've been in the ecosystem for a while now and, um, yeah, I've been in sales my whole career and watched it change quite a bit from like Manually calling one number at a time from DNB, uh, like Donald Bradstreet lists in 2009 to- to whatever 01:31 is- whatever it is today. So I'm really excited to chat. Awesome. I'm gonna be here as well. Um, Zach Vidibore, co-founder of Octave. 01:40 One way to think about what we're kind of doing is we're trying to give you, like, your ICP is an endpoint. 01:45 You know, we really think about your messaging and positioning, how you talk about what you do, who it's for, what problems you solve as kind of your company's like- Unique DNA, if you will, that's kind of your fingerprint. 01:56 And so we're trying to give that a purpose-built home, obviously, with AI, where then you can integrate that knowledge into a variety of workflows, whether that be qualification, research, enrichment, um, writing emails, all kinds of cool stuff. 02:09 I'm sure we'll talk about it hopefully at some points. Um, my background as well. I've been in the uh, go-to-market. 02:15 Trench is, if you will, for a long time. So 15 years ago, I was a SDR hammering the phone, you know, the phones and ATMs. 02:23 So, uh, I know this world. I'm trying to bring hopefully some of, you know, what I've seen myself on teams I've been on, part of what I'm building and what I'm hearing from customers. 02:31 And yeah, excited to, uh, to jam here and hopefully help some people out. That's great. And I guess I should introduce myself. 02:39 I'm Brendan. I am the co-founder and CEO of RevPartners. Unlike Harris, I've stayed in the agency world for better or worse. 02:46 So I am still living agency life while Harris and Zach experience software life in my background. Similar to Zach in a sense of, and actually you, Harris, have, uh, really been in the sales seats from SDR to, You know, in the leadership on the software side, and then move actually into services over 03:04 time. And one of the fun things about doing a podcast like this is, um, these are relationships. And I remember, you know, Harris, uh, you and I first, I think it's actually at the end of my conference was the first time we got to start, uh, chat and then Zach, I know it was through a connection that 03:17 we both share, uh, and just been really impressed watching, uh, y'all's content and, uh, building partnerships with your software companies and realizing that your, your point of view is something that, um, Our audience could really benefit from. 03:31 And so I'm really excited to get this kicked off. And, uh, like I said, I mean, I think what we're realizing is, it's really hard to go to market right now. 03:40 Uh, despite what you may be hearing, uh, and in fact, for most people, I mean, everyone's going to market just what, I'm out of how well you're doing it. 03:46 And for many, we're going to market is broken. Um, and so this is an attempt to equip you to go to market owner with some of those, um, You know, actual insights they can take. 03:56 So let's, let's kind of get into our first topic, guys, for, for this episode, which gets into a not necessarily sexy topic, but a really important topic, which is really around email deliverability. 04:05 And what I mean by that, just to define that a little bit, and then we'll kind of riff on it, um, as just if you, the more that you, And I talk to sales leaders. 04:13 There's this frustration that the emails that are sending aren't actually landing in the inbox. Um, so, uh, let's unpack that as to what the heck is going on. 04:22 Why are we seeing that deliverability decrease so much? And then ultimately, what can they do to solve that problem? So, maybe at a high level, let's start with like what, what has happened, uh, to cause that to be such a problem for the sales leader, but ultimately for the sales team that's doing the 04:35 email, uh, outreach. I'll let you jump in for a terrorists and then maybe I'll back you up with some more thoughts. 04:44 Yeah, that sounds great. So I think that it's important to remember kind of the context of where things came from. 04:49 So, you know, when outreach came out and sales loft and some of these early sequencing tools, it sort of gave sales reps the ability to, Do more to automate some of the workflow and to get more emails out. 05:00 And so you had like marketing would send email blasts, you know, to large lists of existing customers or to a trade show list and then sales historically would go find individual prospects one-on-one and work them. 05:10 And then the ability to reach out to multiple people, you know, and then sequence it and then email a bunch of people in a day. 05:16 And so, you know, and kind of the Halcyon days of how easy that was back then. I mean, you could just Email like a thousand people a day, just from your main email address, from your main domain, and, um, and it was fine. 05:28 And it worked. But as more people did it, um, Google and Outlook, they started to clamp down. And I think, like, when you think about email deliverability, you just have to remember the ecosystem is, it's like an oligopoly, really. 05:42 I mean, you have a handful of providers, um, that I have very, very, very important roles within the ecosystem, and they set the rules. 05:50 And so if they change the rules, that's going to really affect how your team can perform. Um, and I'm not saying the rules are good or bad, just, just objectively, like, that's the way it is. 05:58 They own most of the market, and so they get to decide how it works. And so when they saw these changes, they didn't like it, and so they made changes to how the filters worked, and then Teams cranked up the volume even more. 06:09 Um, and you've got this kind of cat mouse game happening between these sequencing tools and the email providers. And there's a lot of layers to like what, you know, it's volume, it's data quality, it's the copy. 06:21 There's a lot of things that go into it. But I mean, that's the long story short. It was really easy and it's gotten harder. 06:26 And now it's to the point where I think that this, even this idea of like one to one email, it's starting to be taken out of the hands of the individual sales reps now. 06:35 And they're You know, not doing what they have been doing even for the last five to ten years. And that's where I think, you know, AI is changing that and the idea of like understanding the customer and like, what's the right messaging and doing much more sophisticated testing. 06:49 So there's like a lot we can get into about deliverability, but like in general, that's kind of what I see is happening on my side. 06:53 Yeah. It's real quick on that. And then Zaggle E-Roof is, you mentioned the rules of change, Sarah. So maybe before we get into like, what, like, the what's going on with AI, but what you said rule of change is let's unpack a little bit further. 07:06 Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, so, okay, we can go. There's like a couple layers to this. So, I mean, let's just talk about like, what is a cold email? 07:14 So a cold email is like, when you're sending someone an email that they've never heard from you before. But it's also like a first time interaction potentially between your domain and their domain. 07:22 And when I say domain, you know, I mean, like, abonsink.com. So my email address is Harris at outboundsync.com. Feel free to call the email me. 07:29 I don't care. And so if I'm sending email out for the first time from my main main address, Like, the recipient has never heard from me before. 07:36 And so my, my sending tool has to decide, like, should I deliver this email or not? Is it malicious or is it okay for Google to send Harris's email? 07:47 And then the recipient has to decide, do I want to receive it or not? Um, and so, like, there's a few basic things that happen. 07:53 You have to have like the domain configured. There's records to authenticate. I am indeed Harris. And the person who's receiving it is indeed the recipient of the email. 08:00 So you have like this very like, uh, kind of really technical level. Then you have, like, historical interactions between the domains. 08:08 You've got how many emails I'm sending. So when I, when we say it's getting harder, like, they're limiting how many emails you can send out from your email address. 08:14 And increasingly if you've got a rogue sales rep that's just blasting out emails, it's going to potentially affect the entire companies. 08:22 Reputation across their domain because they're emailing like 10,000 people a day. Their account's gonna get locked all of a sudden your invoices aren't sending to customers anymore. 08:30 Um, your customer success people aren't able to like get in touch. Your salespeople's calendar invites aren't going out. So that that's like kind of like the the first level of risk of like contagion is like the main domain. 08:40 And so that's why people are moving to setting up secondary domains. And then once you set up secondary domains, which would be like get out bouncing calm. 08:46 Then you still have like additional concerns are on the content. And frankly, like the email providers are rightly filtering, pretty heavily, because there are concerns about fishing and cyber attacks. 08:57 Like, cold email, we might think that our cold email is, um, noble, but someone who's trying to steal money from a company would probably do some of the similar things that we're doing when we're just trying to grow a company and offer a valuable service. 09:11 Um, so things like images and things like links that can be used maliciously are also, um, Need to be taken into consideration. 09:17 And this is also where the copy comes into mind. Because if you're sending the same email 5,000 times in a row, that's weird. 09:23 No normal person does that, you know? And so rightly, email systems are like, what's up? So, so deliverability is like kind of a set of like, that's like a matroid scale. 09:32 It's like a nested like set of things where like each one you have to kind of have to like pass this test. 09:39 Um, and so those are where they're like applying more rules. Whereas like 10 years ago, you could send a thousand emails that were identical from your main domain. 09:45 And now you can't. Does that? Is that like a big starting point? Yeah, I think it's a great starting point. 09:51 I think it's a, it's a good segue to Zach. Zach is more into by the content. Uh, but even before that, Zach, I think it would be, I mean, you mentioned you, you were an SDR a while back and you've been a manager and you probably had teams that, uh, so I think what Harris was talking about is like, before 10:06 the rule change or this concept, the whole changing. Volume was key. Uh, and that's like what was preached and more and more and more. 10:12 How many activities have you done today? Um, so I'd love to hear kind of your expand on some of the things that Harris was just talking about. 10:18 Yeah. Um, Look, I think as a good market community, like we can take some ownership over the uh, the predictable revenue era, you know, like people got lazy and it kind of worked and you could, you could shove enough activities in the top of the funnel that stuff would drop out of the bottom and like 10:37 That's just not the reality anymore. And I think just to like, maybe add on to like, you know, what Harris was talking about, some of the like, just technically, you know, like, one thing like, I talked to people about a lot is like, hey, it's not just about how AI could help you with your sales. 10:53 Like, AI is impacting everything, right? Like, Google and Microsoft, they have AI that's helping their spam filtering, right? Like, it's getting much easier for them. 11:03 10 years ago, it was really hard to maybe spot a, hey, we want to track the reputation of like a phone number in a signature that's like across a bunch of different domains, right? 11:14 Like, oh, you could be using 18 different domains to send from, but they all have your same phone number in them. 11:20 10 years ago, like, that was, that was really hard for them to like track that reputation. Now, that's incredibly easy. 11:25 Like, they have AI that'll go like, oh, I've seen like, this phone number is associated with a spam report. I don't care where you're sending it from. 11:31 So, like, there's, like, all kinds of things happening in the background, like, technically, that, like, AI, they're getting much more sophisticated, where, like, yeah, simple templates and variables and spin-tats, like, aren't cutting it. 11:43 You need to be, like, that much more precise, that much more, um, you know, distinct with, like, each message you deliver, and, like, the key being, like, you just need to take- Good shots on goal. 11:56 I'm like, I kind of think it's good for the industry in a way. You know, it feels harder and like you feel the, we all feel the friction increasing and it causes a lot of like anxiety for us and our customers, but ultimately it's good friction that's like helping us do the right thing, which is like, 12:12 make sure I'm trying to talk to the right people about the right thing. You know, and that's like the, the gravity of the universe is kind of forcing that all on us. 12:21 And then I think we're all gonna, we're all gonna come Come up to a better spot. And like, I think the, uh, you know, the, the goal shouldn't be like, how do I treat the spam filters like some touring test that I can like sneak my way around? 12:36 Like the goal is like, hey, they, they have, they have good sense. And like, I need to make sure I'm like delivering a message to that person. 12:44 The they go, I know exactly why I got this, you know, like, that should be the goal. And then you're going to hit the inbox a lot more. 12:51 If like, if you're trying to hit that target versus like, I'm just trying to game the system, you know. Totally agree with you. 12:58 Yeah. Yeah, and guys, before, before we jump into a bit of the solution, um, which is, uh, it's always tempting to go into solutions. 13:05 Yeah. But, like, how, I think we talk about the frustrate, like, if you're the sales leader, you're frustrated that emails are going to spam, but I don't know if the sales leader really understands the true impact. 13:15 That it's having to the business in terms of when you guys mean some word reputation. I think there's an element of like, there's the trust with the buyer, uh, which is certainly an impact, but also just what is happening to that company domain when it's going to spam? 13:28 Can you speak into, hey, there, there actually is a risk the business by not doing this well besides just being frustrated that email's going to spam? 13:36 Well, I mean, I think it's like, there's an incentive misalignment. Situation, right? So like, I mean, talk about a company that just has their main domain and they're doing everything off of their main domain today. 13:45 I mean, I was this business development leader where I was going to pay it on commission and if I sold more widgets, I got paid more and nobody else was under that incentive structure, but I was and I was, you know, Mary had a house. 14:04 It's about to start a family. It's like, yeah, I would like to get paid my full amount of compensation. Um, and so it's, and meanwhile, like there's no, nobody else was helping me. 14:13 Nobody else was offering to help set up infrastructure or do anything. So it's like, okay, well, I just need to send send email because like there's literally no other lever I can pull. 14:22 I don't have any control over the marketing budget. I don't have any control over what trade shows I go to. 14:26 Um, you know, I don't even, I don't even access to a really a data provider. And so it's like, what are the tools I have? 14:32 I have this phone and I have this email address and I have a database and I can work off of this database. 14:37 And so, like a lot of reps are in that position. And so they're going to use the tools that they have to meet the goals that have been set for them by the company that hired them in the first place. 14:46 And so when they're doing that, they do potentially risk the company's ability to function. I mean, because email and like authentication through your email address is You, you like, you might not even be able to log into QuickBooks. 14:58 If you're, if you get locked out of your email account and you need that two-factor code and you can't log into your Google, you might not be able to close your books or file your taxes or whatever. 15:06 So, you know, it's a really, really kind of foundational, um, thing. Uh, it's like fundamentally like the company that holds your email account holds secure identity in your ability to communicate. 15:15 And so you want to make sure that you're not putting people in your organization in a position where they can jeopardize that just so they can. 15:22 Dude, the job that you hired him for in the first place, right? I think everyone's like doing their best. I don't think anyone has any bad incentives. 15:28 But I think it's important to remember that what the reality is for the rep in the seat, who's, you know, just trying to help everybody. 15:34 Frankly, everybody get paid, right? Yeah. Yeah. It could be, it could be real damaging when you're, uh, your, your proposals and your order forms. 15:42 Yeah. When those aren't making it through the pipes, then the business really starts feeling the pain. And I think that There's like also a component of, you know, especially like when we're talking cold email, you know, like the replies of like, hell yeah, I want to meet tomorrow, give you a demo, like 16:00 those are rarely gonna fall through the bottom and they're rarely gonna like fall through the bottom right away. Like cold email definitely has a like, there's a like a compounding that kind of has to build up, right? 16:14 Like it's it's useful really as this channel that you can kind of Tap people in the shoulder over time. Like, I'm here. 16:20 I got a relevant message. This is what we do. Hey, you know, you might just be like scanning this thing for two seconds, but you start seeing, you know, buyers pick up on this. 16:28 They start seeing your name. They start seeing, oh, we work with this customer, you know, like, those things add up over time. 16:34 And if like, if you lose that as like a channel, that even if you're not getting the meetings, like, if you lose that as a channel to like, just again, Get that little figment of your, you know, solution in your, in your market's mind, like, that's a huge loss for the company. 16:50 So, I mean, I think, you know, even forget if you're like getting the, the meetings and a bunch of handraisers going, yes, I want to demo, like, you should care about just this being a clean channel that we can just communicate with our, our tam and, and our market, you know? 17:06 Yeah, I totally agree. I'll just say really quick too. This applies to other channels. Supply still linked in and then applies to phones too. 17:12 Calling has gotten harder. Doing outreach on social has gotten harder. All of these channels have gotten a lot harder. You know, people's like social accounts getting locked and that's like their personal social account. 17:22 Phone numbers being marked as going to spam and just like connect rates plummeting. Um, and so we can also touch on some of these tactics. 17:29 And like how to scale messaging across channels too because I do think that email to the really I know is like the prompt, but I do think it's also true that the same thing is happening across, uh, across channels for go to market and some like more traditional industries they really rely on phones. 17:42 Um, and if your rep is if everyone in your company's numbers being marked as spam and you're a company that sells into trades or education or manufacturing where, Those people answer the phone and they don't look at their email. 17:54 Um, then you also have a really big problem. You know, the accounts receivable phone number is going to spam. That's an issue too, right? 18:02 Yeah, I think you're, I think you're absolutely right. And I can't tell you how many text messages now I report a spam. 18:09 So whoever you are, these companies, you're hurting your company. Sorry, you can't open your QuickBooks account. Um, I think, yeah. 18:18 To where you're going here is, I mean, I think there are unintended consequences where when, I mean, since there's always drive behaviors and while they're well intentioned, there are, there are impacts that they can have depending on how it's set up. 18:30 Um, and so let's, let's talk a little bit about, um, I think to your point. There's two, we will talk about other channels. 18:37 Um, and we all started to use that because we talked about the kind of the new rules, if you will, that was alluded to earlier. 18:43 This guy gets in a little bit of the solution. What are some ways that, um, you know, the sales, the companies in the sales teams can really embrace, like new ways or new approaches to avoid spam health? 18:57 Yeah. I think, um, probably starts, you know, with Good clean infrastructure. You know, you should spin up secondary domains like you should get stuff off your primary to start. 19:11 So like we don't we don't have a oopsie, right? So I'd say like starts there. Then I'd say, you know, getting a cleaner list is this is like where AI has really like the the needles been moved and like Going through a list of, like, 10,000 contacts, for example, a few years ago, and having to figure 19:33 out, like, all right, can I, can I figure out if everyone in here is, like, sock too certified or not? 19:39 And, like, that's really important to our sales process. Like, that was, like, incredibly manual. Now you can do things like that instantly, right? 19:47 So, there's, you know, almost no excuse of, like, get a clean list, you know, like, Have smaller buckets, like you shouldn't have one massive list. 19:58 Here's 100,000 accounts that we like, you know, like, bad move, you know, segment them more, clean them, make sure you're getting, again, there's just good, good, uh, hygiene practices, make sure you're verifying emails, you're, you're, you're knowing, you know, if you're, When we can talk more technical 20:15 stuff, if you're, you know, trying to be wary of, like, never sending to catchalls where you might be more likely to get bounces and stuff like that. 20:22 You know, there's lots of stuff now where you can easily do work upfront at scale. That's going to make sure, like, okay, we have a good group of people. 20:32 We have high confidence. We're going to be able to deliver to the inbox and, like, we've, you know, Put the boundaries in the universe in a way that, like, we can deliver a really specific message. 20:44 And then, like, of course, like, near and dear to my heart is, like, I think each person is probably worthy of, like, a somewhat unique message. 20:51 You know, like, the same way if you were to get on a call with somebody, like, depending on who they are, what they do, what their company does, like, you're gonna have a slightly different flavor of the message. 21:02 And, like, that's useful for deliverability. I think that's useful for, like, Hey, the, the, you know, the, the, the tighter the aperture on our message, like that just gives us a better, a better chance at like getting somebody to engage. 21:14 If you're kind of wide open with your messaging and value value benefit benefit, we helped the world. Like, people are just gonna have a really hard time like latching onto that and seeing themselves in it at all. 21:26 So say that's, that's where, I think, yeah, the, the rubber can meet the road is like make sure we're targeting the right people, have, have clean pipes, all that, and then give them something to react to, you know, don't, don't give them 18 different like broad value statements, give them one hypothesis 21:43 , and you'll get a better shot of somebody being awesome, not for me, you know, like that, that's what we want to, we want to get somebody to, you know. 21:51 Yeah, kind of mine. It goes back to me. You were talking about earlier. It's a camera with a scientific word for it, but like that, like the red car effect, where you see a red car, or you start seeing that car everywhere. 22:01 Um, it's like, if you do affect a multi-channel outreach, um, I would assume there's this desire like to your point about, yes, value first, don't pitch slap, but thinking about something from a long-term perspective of how you're building, um, that relationship is trying to sell them on that one, that 22:18 one email. Alright guys, assuming that I'm an idiot, which I kind of am. So like, like from the, you guys say things like secondary email, email verification, as like that kind of first step. 22:30 I'm a CRO. I don't know what y'all are talking about. What is that? What are the, what are those things actually mean? 22:35 And what are some options that I have in my disposal as I'm kind of thinking through, okay, crap. I do have this problem. 22:41 Sounds like those are some of the steps I first need to take. Regardless of content and list, I need to have that in place. 22:46 Here's what, how would you approach that in terms of A definer and a solution that may be out there for the audience. 22:53 Yeah, so I mean basically if you're expecting your sales rise to be contacting more than let's just say 10 to 20 people a day. 23:03 It's doing anything I get higher volume. You need to think about picking tools that will support those channels that you're that you're doing that outreach through. 23:11 So if you're doing email, um, you know, there are tools like smartly, like instantly email bison that are built for more scaled. 23:20 Outbound that can reach hundreds or thousands of people a day. Um, and then there's kind of infrastructure setup underlying infrastructure to use those tools. 23:28 So for email, you would buy domains. You would buy email accounts. You would set them up for phones. You know, again, you'd look at dialers and you'd look at setting up phone numbers and dialers potentially that include like number rotation between them. 23:39 And then for social, that's like a whole different ball of wax social automation. Um, personally, I avoid that, but I think like Having at least manual tasks that are triggered through social, um, there's ways to do it. 23:53 But basically the point is like, you're gonna have a number of touches that you're expecting your reps to make, and then an expected conversion rate for each of those touches. 24:03 And if your volume is gonna go above 10 to 20 across any of those channels, I think you need to start thinking about picking specific tools that are built for those specific jobs. 24:09 And then you can, you know, you can hack the conversion rate by doing some of the stuff we were talking about before, which is like, so if you're verifying, validating emails, if you're using a tool like clay, You can validate email addresses if you're using a tool like Octave, you can get better copy 24:21 . So that you're going to get a better conversion rate. And then all of a sudden, like, if you think about the fraction that, that like denominator, the number of people you have to reach goes down. 24:28 If you can convert more of those, uh, more of those touches. So I think that that would be like kind of my basic overarching, um, way that I would think about that. 24:37 And, you know, I don't even have anything to sell you in either, in any of those things, though, I just said, like I don't. 24:44 Sell email sequencer or call sequencer or blinked in tools. So, but I paid people to do those things and I've been doing this for five years, like, and I've sent a lot of emails and I've sent, you know, I've done a lot of this stuff and I've done co-calling. 24:56 Um, so I guess my last thing would be like, pick a channel, try to be excellent at that channel and ask for help. 25:01 Talk to people who understand that space and who can help you get upset up in the infrastructure, get upset up with the tools, um, because whatever you, however you think it works, you know, if you're like in a senior leader position, You're understanding of it is probably a little bit dated. 25:15 I think you're understanding of the fundamentals of the job and how to like move the organization forward. Heck yeah, like that's why you're in that seat. 25:21 But the like day in and day out, it has changed since you had quota for sure. It changed from a month ago, right? 25:27 So it's my advice would be like just ask for help or work with vendors. Like that's what we do for our own outreach and it's in theory I should be able to do it all myself, but I'm curious what you think about that too. 25:36 Yeah, I would, I think that That last point is like super important and I know like your question brand was like a little more like technical but I think like There is a mindset shift required here where like email was like this like risk-free Consequence-free super low-cost Channel and like that's fundamentally 25:58 changed like there are there are risk and consequences like if you misbehave on your primary domain like it is now you can get locked out very quick and guess what like The costs have risen too. 26:10 Like, hey, you're gonna need secondary domains. You're gonna need new types of tooling and ways to use this channel. But like, the mindset shift is also should be like, you know, damn, like, this is a, this is a path we can get right to our prospect front door. 26:26 Like, if we do it right, there's kind of no equivalent of like email. I'm just like, I can get right, right to this precise person. 26:34 That, that should have some cost, you know? I think like that's for, for a lot of organizations, it just, especially the last 10 years. 26:41 Like, it was just emails really free and cheap and we could give every rep a machine gun and go, go sit and like, okay, it didn't work. 26:50 Like, oh well, that was like the worst outcome. And now the worst outcome is like, well, yeah, now, now your proposals and your, your voices aren't going out, you know? 26:58 Like, so it's just like, uh, yeah, I think. For those that are, yeah, kind of, I'm sure there are some people like experiencing this now. 27:06 Like, it is, uh, the landscape has moved a lot. So, guys, what I'm kind of hearing is there's this mindset shift of, um, from do more to do better. 27:15 I think it's kind of one of the things that you're talking about. Tag and Harris is like, hey, the volume game is not necessarily, While that works in the past, it's no longer going to be, uh, successful in this new, kind of paradigm that we're describing. 27:27 Um, which I think is a really important takeaway. I think the other thing that I, like, as I'm sitting here, uh, what seems encouraging is yes, the bar is higher. 27:35 Yes, it's more difficult. But man, there's this amazing opportunity, even as you're saying, Zach, of like literally having direct access to your buyer, that the ones that do this right. 27:45 Can not only win but win faster. Uh, and so like that learning curve while maybe higher, uh, man, for those that are willing to roll their sleeves and like really, uh, learn this new world that we live in, uh, there's an opportunity to really, you know, take your whatever category you're in to really 28:01 win. So, um, but I'd love to get you all's thoughts on as we wrap up. Yeah, I'll just, I'll, I guess I'll, I'll end with the thought and not that working with your market should feel like, you know, warfare, but like it is like we are moving from a, you know, like I was talking about like the, the old 28:18 world is infantry and artillery and like now it's time for SEAL Team 6, you know, like you need sniper rifles and night vision and like it's a different world, but damn, like you can be so much more effective, like there is a, There is a happy side on, on this transition if you can make it where you're 28:34 doing more with less, you're having better engagement with your customers, you're getting deeper with them and helping them understand quicker. 28:40 So like I'm, I'm really excited. I'm obviously very bullish, but I think it's a, it's a cool time to be, to be taken, go to market teams through this transition and a lot of opportunity for people and, you know, leaving their teams forward and their, their own careers. 28:55 So, um, I see a lot of good stuff coming. I mean, listening to you reminds me of, uh, my co-founder at RPE, Matt Bullion, who went to the West Point. 29:04 I haven't had this much military conversation in a long time. But, uh, Harris, over to you for a final thought. 29:12 Yeah, I mean, it's a zero-sum game. Right, I mean, that's a, like, sound like Ricky Bobby, but if you're not winning, you're losing. 29:18 I mean, the reality is, like, people in the market are figuring this stuff out. And I think if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably one of them. 29:24 We're also figuring it out. But if you're not, like, thinking about it and trying to learn about it, you're definitely not gonna, it's just changing too fast. 29:31 The good thing is that there's outsized, I totally grew at the point, Brendan. There are outsized rewards for the people that spend time to figure it out. 29:38 And in that way, like, the winners will win more. And I think you will see a separation. For companies that are able to spend time on this and think with the end in mind. 29:46 It's like, what does it mean to go to market? We're trying to sell. We want revenue booked in our system. 29:51 We want closed one deals. Like, that is the metric that matters. Not like getting replies, not even getting opens, not even sending emails. 29:58 Like, we want to drive business and grow our companies. And people that can work through this and get a little bit every day, I think, are going to, are going to benefit. 30:05 So I'm excited to talk about this with you with you both and get maybe other people on and just kind of talk about on social because, um, The only way I've found to learn about this is with other people, because everyone's out there testing, and, um, I've never, I mean, I haven't been able to figure 30:19 this out on my own, so I'm excited to talk about it with both of you. I like the way that you frame that, and kind of as we wrap up, but this really should be viewed as an invitation, um, and kind of you were just describing it. 30:29 I mean, there's really a choice here guys, and a choice is for every way is listing, and where you're going. 30:33 It's like, hey, either wind faster or lose harder. I'm like, that's, that's really what you have. And even if you look at like the I mean, there, there is a CRO use provocative language, the CRO death sentence. 30:44 I mean, you, if you were a CRO here, you have 18 months to get it right. Like, that is the 10 year of a CRO right now. 30:49 Uh, and so these type of conversations are so, so important to equip you or aspiring CRO to be successful when you're in that seat. 30:57 So I'm excited to continue the conversation. As you mentioned, Harris, uh, may invite others in here, um, for the three of us to continue having some conversations on effective ways to go to market. 31:07 So Guys that wraps up episode one, appreciate the time, and uh, we'll be back at it next week. There we go. 31:13 See y'all. See ya. Thanks.

Announcing the GTM Crossroads Podcast

Mon, 10 Feb 2025 00:00:00 GMT

I’m excited to announce a new podcast that I, Harris Kenny (founder of OutboundSync), will be co-hosting alongside Brendan Tolleson (co-founder of RevPartners) and Zach Vidibor (co-founder of Octave)—it’s called GTM Crossroads. GTM is at a crossroads. Revenue teams have more tools, data, and channels than ever, yet growth isn’t getting any easier. The old playbook is broken, and companies that fail to adapt are losing—fast. Winning today isn’t just about what you sell. It’s about how you execute. Data, automation, and a modern tech stack only work if you have a strategic tactician who knows how to bring it all together. That’s exactly why we’re launching this podcast. GTM Crossroads is where we tackle real go-to-market challenges, break down what’s working, and deliver practical insights to help revenue teams scale. Whether you’re a Founder, CRO, CMO, or RevOps leader, this podcast is built for you. GTM Crossroads is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and RSS. Join the GTM revolution. Let’s rethink how teams drive revenue!

Case study: Opensend knows outbound is working—without leaving HubSpot

Thu, 06 Feb 2025 00:00:00 GMT

The challenge: How do you know if outbound is working or not? Many B2B growth teams struggle with understanding what's working—and what's not—when it comes to their scaled outbound campaigns. But the ability to track and measure the effectiveness of campaigns is crucial for driving growth and making informed decisions. This challenge was all too familiar for Opensend, a B2B SaaS company dedicated to helping businesses identify and enrich data for high-value leads. They hired a top tier Clay Enterprise Partner and wanted to make sure they were able to measure the results of their work together. The most important part? The team wanted the data, activities, workflows, reports, and dashboards to be inside of HubSpot. Without OutboundSync, Opensend was relying heavily on pre-built analytics from Smartlead and supplementary reports from their agency partner. However, this fragmented approach hindered Opensend's ability to track outbound-influenced pipeline, lifecycle progression, and revenue attribution effectively. After switching to OutboundSync, they leveraged native workflows and reports in HubSpot to handle leads and identify that their agency actually exceed their goal of influenced pipeline—driving 52 meetings, two more than their goal of 50. ## Choosing OutboundSync to integrate Smartlead and HubSpot Faced with these challenges, Opensend recognized the need for a scalable, reliable solution that could seamlessly integrate their existing systems. They needed a tool that would bridge Smartlead and HubSpot without requiring internal engineering resources. This is where OutboundSync came into play. Recommended by their agency, OutboundSync offered Opensend a comprehensive solution to address their data integration and reporting needs. OutboundSync's promise of quick and efficient implementation was a significant factor in Opensend's decision-making process. The ability to go live with data syncing in under 30 minutes provided a compelling case for its adoption. The platform's key features, including activity syncing, list-based reporting, block list management, and pre-built dashboards, offered the holistic solution Opensend was looking for. With OutboundSync, Opensend's team could now have a full context of their outbound campaigns before engaging with potential leads through various channels such as email, phone, and social. ## Seamlessly tracking outbound in HubSpot The integration of OutboundSync into Opensend's tech stack was seamless. The team was able to set the parameters for which campaign activities they wanted to sync, when, and how by creating a webhook receiver in OutboundSync. They plugged that webhook receiver into Smartlead and were off to the races. The platform's dynamic syncing capabilities ensured that Smartlead's block list was automatically updated using HubSpot lists—with a historical log of blocking activities in the middle—preventing redundant outreach and safeguarding brand reputation. OutboundSync's dedicated customer success team further facilitated the transition. Opensend's Growth Marketer, Alex Wilshire, emphasized how straightforward it was to gain a clear view of their outbound marketing performance. This smooth integration allowed Opensend to focus on what truly mattered—building pipeline—without being bogged down by the minutiae of reporting and data management. ## Exceeding quota and building trust Implementing OutboundSync shortly after hiring their agency was a foundational decision for Opensend's go to market (GTM) team. With this full-funnel visibility, Opensend could accurately measure the number of outbound-driven meetings booked and their direct influence on revenue. This simply wasn't possible otherwise. The results spoke for themselves. Opensend managed to book 52 outbound-driven meetings, exceeding the outbound agency's initial goal of 50. Beyond funnel reporting, OutboundSync provided Opensend with insights that reshaped their collaboration with their outbound growth agency. The platform's detailed reporting highlighted the agency's contributions, showcasing how their efforts exceeded expectations. For example, they found leads that the internal sales team had been attempting to reach for months that actually converted when targeted using the novel signals-based approach their agency developed. Native HubSpot reports built with OutboundSync's customer success team allowed both parties to fine-tune their campaigns in real-time, ensuring alignment with business goals. ## Enabling the sales team As Opensend continues to explore new sales engagement tools, OutboundSync remains a cornerstone of their outbound marketing strategy. The platform ensures consistent CRM reporting and data hygiene, so they can build on top of that foundation to go to other channels like phone and social. Using tools like Clay and a mix of data providers, reps are able to go omnichannel to ensure that leads convert. This is something that Opensend itself enables for its customers through its innovative approach to website visitor identification and enrichment. ## Conclusion Opensend's journey with OutboundSync exemplifies the power of effective data integration and reporting in outbound marketing. Their team is far more confident in their ability to understand whether their outbound campaigns are working or not. And attribution specific deals and revenue to those efforts. To learn more about how OutboundSync can elevate your marketing efforts, reach out to our sales team to get a demo.

New: OutboundSync's Instantly integration for HubSpot and Salesforce

Wed, 05 Feb 2025 00:00:00 GMT

Instantly.ai users, this one’s for you! OutboundSync’s integration with Instantly is live! Bringing your outbound campaign data into HubSpot and Salesforce. Here’s what this means: - Full-Funnel Attribution – Track every email sent, every reply, and every booked meeting inside your CRM. No more guessing how outbound contributes to revenue. - Instantly Inbox → CRM – Lead statuses and rep-managed inbox activity get logged directly in HubSpot and Salesforce, ensuring nothing slips through the cracks. - Campaign Performance Visibility – Build detailed reports that break down performance by campaign, rep, and timeline. Know exactly what’s driving meetings and deals. - Omni-Channel Sales Execution – Whether your team follows up via email, social, or phone, OutboundSync ensures your CRM remains the system of record. We’ve already logged over 10 million events for outbound teams, we're about to finish our SOC 2 Type II attestation, and we're so excited to bring our platform to Instantly users. If you’re an Instantly agency or user and want to streamline your outbound tracking, attribution, and automation, here's a quick walkthrough. ## Transcript 0:00 Hey there, my name is Harris Kenny. I'm the founder of OutboundSync, and I am very excited to announce that our Instantly integration is live. Now we're talking to, I think, some of the best Instantly agencies about rolling this out for their clients And I just want to show you how it works and give 0:19 you a brief overview of Instantly, Instantly's webhook feature, and what that looks like to get that data into HubSpot and Salesforce Let's jump right in First, looking at an Instantly campaign, you can see that you're going to run it like you've run it before Everything is going to be the same We're 0:40 going to simply use the webhook feature inside of Instantly to decide what webhook events we want to send over to our CRM. 0:48 And if you want to be able to fully attribute revenue and get both first and multi-touch, even last-touch attribution, this is going to be critical You can have every sent email, every reply, and the lead status changes are going to come in the Instantly inbox, where a rep is handling the leads inside 1:07 of Instantly. We'll be able to push that disposition over to the CRM to be able to not only route or handle notifications, but specifically be able to track the performance of campaigns over time so that you not only have the Instantly dashboard, but you're also going to have that report inside of HubSpot 1:27 or Salesforce so that your other folks on the team can see what's going on. And again, you can connect Instantly campaigns to booked meetings conversions through other sources, revenue, and closed one, you know, deals beyond that deals in the pipeline, pipeline stages, just get a sense of what outbound 1:48 is doing to actually drive growth in the business. Let's look on the HubSpot side at what this actually looks like. 1:54 So here you can see, we're looking at a contact record. We're going to log those emails as emails. In HubSpot, those emails would be associated up at the company level in HubSpot. 2:06 And then we're also going to be logging these timeline events. And just to show you specifically, you can see that this is an instantly timeline event. 2:12 So we're calling this out. So if you happen to be using OutboundSync already and using another product, another sales engagement platform, and you want to be exploring Instantly, we're going to make it really easy for you to drop in all of your existing workflows and reports and try Instantly. 2:28 Looking at how that individual data rolls up into reports, you can see a sample of a pipeline funnel, looking at conversion from sent emails that are contacted, excuse me, to the number of contacts that opened, to replied, positive replies, meetings booked, and then deals associated with your outbound 2:48 campaigns. You can even track the sending volume over time and the most recent event on those contacts in the campaigns. 2:56 You can break out performance on the campaign level and you can look at overall sending by month. You can break out the specific positive replies and make sure that they've been followed up on and moving forward in terms of lifecycle stage. 3:10 And you can set up automation from a sales ops perspective. You have to make sure the reps are getting everything they need to see. 3:15 Here we can update, for example, the lifecycle stage, create tasks. We can manage opt-outs and, uh, have a fallback for replies that come in that don't get notified to make sure that nothing slips between the cracks. 3:28 Jumping over to the Salesforce side. Currently, we support writing to the account and contact objects inside of Salesforce. Now we've got a lot more coming in the Salesforce side, but for now, you can see how it works today. 3:40 We're logging emails as emails, and then you can drill down and get all the details of your instantly campaign data inside of Salesforce. 3:48 Now, the power of having this activity data available to your reps is that they have visibility into what happened before they got the leads. 3:55 They can see the conversation that happened. They can see the campaign, the hook, the offer that led to the engagement. 4:02 And the last thing is that when you get this data into your CRM, you can also go omni-channel. So whether that's social outreach through sales navigator, one-to-one outreach, or even picking up the phone, the idea is that you can use the best tools for the job, and you can have your CRM be your system 4:20 of record. So we're really excited to be working with Instantly. They've been doing very, very helpful, uh, really supportive. Their support team has been exceptional, and we're really looking forward to bringing this integration to Instantly users. 4:35 We've logged well over 10 million events through OutboundSync, and our platform has really come a long way. We're going to be finishing up our SOC 2 Type II audit, and we're excited to be working with notonlyagencies, and early stage companies, but increasingly the mid-market and enterprise teams that 4:54 are seeing the value in using scaled outbound tools like instantly. You can learn more today by going to outboundsync.com. Thanks. ## Additional resources ### Instantly HubSpot integration Using Instantly for outbound and managing contacts in HubSpot? OutboundSync’s Instantly HubSpot integration brings campaign visibility right into your CRM—no workarounds needed. Automatically log activity as email activities and timeline events to Contacts and associated Companies (optional), and build lists, workflows, and reports, powered by real engagement data and more. ### Instantly Salesforce integration Running outbound with Instantly and need it to work with Salesforce? OutboundSync's Instantly Salesforce integration connects your outbound efforts to your CRM in real time. We support syncing activity to Leads or Accounts/Contacts, logging activities as Tasks or EmailMessages, and enabling full-funnel reporting. It’s built for scale, so you can track what’s working.

New: OutboundSync's EmailBison integration for HubSpot and Salesforce

Mon, 20 Jan 2025 00:00:00 GMT

In this video, Harris Kenny, Founder of OutboundSync, walks you through the key features of this integration, designed to supercharge your outbound campaigns and bring seamless connectivity between EmailBison and your CRM. What you’ll learn: - EmailBison Overview: A powerful sales engagement platform with unique features for outbound outreach, including secondary domain/email connections, custom emails, and robust webhook capabilities. - Setting Up the Integration: How to configure webhooks in EmailBison and sync them with OutboundSync to send data to HubSpot and Salesforce. - HubSpot + Salesforce Functionality: See how email activities are logged, connected to contacts/companies, and how you can use this data for workflows, reporting, and CRM native automation. - Future Plans: Learn about the ongoing collaboration between OutboundSync and - EmailBison to expand this integration further. Whether you’re looking to optimize your workflows, log email activity seamlessly, or leverage advanced CRM features, this integration is here to help. ## Transcript 0:00 Hi there, my name is Harris Kenny, I'm the founder of OutboundSync, and I'm excited to share an exciting new integration that has been months in the making, and really, years in the making. 0:09 OutboundSync is now integrating EmailBison with HubSpot in Salesforce. Now, EmailBison is a powerful sales engagement platform that has a set of really unique features footprint for how they're doing their outbound outreach. 0:36 In addition to that, they have a very robust set of webhooks, APIs, and other tools and documentation that we're finding some of our agency partners are using to get great results. 0:48 Now, I want to show you quickly how email bison works, how it interacts with OutboundSync, and what that looks like inside of HubSpot and Salesforce. 0:58 These are big topics with a lot to cover, and this video is only going to be a few minutes. So give me a second to show you how it works. 1:03 And if you're interested. You can always find out more jumping into email bison. You can see a test account with a little bit of test data. 1:11 Now it's a really clean interface that allows you to connect a number of secondary domains and secondary email accounts in order to do outreach to net users. 1:20 It also has a powerful feature that allows you to write custom or one-off emails and all of that is going to be logged back through webhook events to up on sync and then into your CRM. 1:33 In order to do that, we're going to go to the settings and we're going to create a webhook events that we want to send over now on the screen. 1:40 You can see what we're supporting right now, but keep in mind that we are going to be adding new features to our integration and we're working really closely with their team to do that. 1:51 Once you've decided what data you want to send to OutboundSync, we're actually going to create that webhook URL or that destination for EmailBison to send the data. 2:00 We're going to create the webhook URL or a webhook receiver. We're going to drop that into EmailBison and we're going to start to receive that data. 2:08 Note that both HubSpot and Salesforce, they have unique settings and configuration options within OutboundSync. Right now on the screen you can see how you would configure the payloads to come from EmailBison and go to HubSpot. 2:22 But Salesforce will have its own set of unique features because the platforms are pretty different. Going back to EmailBison, now that you've made this connection between the two tools, you're going to see that the inbox in EmailBison is going to push over to your HubSpot and Salesforce accounts. 2:39 In HubSpot, the inbox this means connecting to the company and the contact records, logging email activities, and timeline events. And these can be stacked to build workflows, reporting, and a lot of native functionality that's already inside of HubSpot. 2:53 Same thing with Salesforce, logging to accounts and contacts, logging activities, allowing the user to take advantage of flows and powerful automation and reporting built inside of Salesforce. 3:04 is just the beginning, and we're really excited about what we're building with their team. Thanks for checking it out. Please let us know if you have any questions or if you'd like to see a more in-depth demo of how it works. 3:13 Thanks. ## Additional resources ### Instantly HubSpot integration Using EmailBison for outbound and managing contacts in HubSpot? OutboundSync’s EmailBison HubSpot integration brings campaign visibility right into your CRM—no workarounds needed. Automatically log activity as email activities and timeline events to Contacts and associated Companies (optional), and build lists, workflows, and reports, powered by real engagement data and more. ### EmailBison Salesforce integration Running outbound with Instantly and need it to work with Salesforce? OutboundSync's EmailBison Salesforce integration connects your outbound efforts to your CRM in real time. We support syncing activity to Leads or Accounts/Contacts, logging activities as Tasks or EmailMessages, and enabling full-funnel reporting. It’s built for scale, so you can track what’s working.

Outbound attribution in HubSpot using Smartlead and OutboundSync

Fri, 18 Oct 2024 00:00:00 GMT

Outbound campaign attribution in HubSpot just got a whole lot easier. You name it—from meetings and converted leads to closed won deals. This new capability is part of our “packages” feature, which uses Supered to deploy fully built lists, workflows, and dashboards straight into your HubSpot portal. It all starts with Smartlead campaign data which is synced with OutboundSync. ## Transcript 0:00 Get ready, get ready, get ready. This is the culmination of a year and a half of work. I'm very excited to show you how it works. 0:10 What if you could attribute converted leads, booked meetings, deals, deal value, pipeline size, all of those things to your outbound campaigns? 0:23 If you're using Smart Lead and Outbound Sync, you can do that now in HubSpot thanks to a new thing we're doing called packages. 0:30 We're using a tool called Supered which will allow us to deploy entirely built lists, workflows, and dashboards with reports into your HubSpot account. 0:41 Now, I'm going to walk you through an example dashboard. This is version 2 that we've shipped. It's got full funnel reporting and it's got very specific breakdowns including things like data enrichment, sales rep follow-up, open opportunities, and more. 0:54 So let's just talk through it. First, we've got a vertical funnel here. This is going to show you conversion rate by stage. 1:00 And this is very useful if you've got a strict process and you're using the life cycle stages. But we've also got this alternative horizontal view, which allows you to have multiple criteria for entering and exiting stages. 1:15 And it can be a little bit less rigid. Uh, and ultimately, you know, you want to know how many people have I contacted? 1:21 And of those cold emails that I sent through SmartLead, what, at the end of the day, converted into revenue, closed one deals. 1:28 And that's what you're seeing. Inside of these reports for every sent email at the top of the funnel, and then every closed one customer at the bottom of the funnel, that's specifically attributed to outbound campaigns using data that was synced through outbound sync. 1:45 You can track the number of sent emails and sending volume within a given time period. And you can also look at the categorization of those leads, which SmartLead's using chat GPT for, and you can develop your own custom prompts, your own custom categories. 1:58 you can see that breakdown here in the dashboard. to get a sense of if you're interested replies, not interested, out of office. 2:07 And I'll just note here real quick, this dashboard is assuming you're sending all of the data over to HubSpot. Outbound sync does have a feature called category-based filtering that allows you to only send select data to HubSpot, and if you're doing that, then you're not going to be able to build all 2:20 of these reports, because these, as you're seeing them, rely on that data being in HubSpot in order for native reports to be built on top of that data. 2:28 So, keep an eye out, because that's something we're thinking about, how do we embed external data into HubSpot dashboards, but currently, we're using data that's native to HubSpot, which we're syncing through outbound sync. 2:42 You can track campaign results. You can look at individual campaign sending volume and then positive replies at the contact level. 2:51 We've also got folks who are using our product to track contact owners, or they've got individual sales reps running campaigns, and they want to see what the volume looks like for those sales reps. 3:03 This is the part that I get really excited about. This is where I think that we're really capturing the value from this point in the dashboard down, because this is where that lead is interested at positive. 3:13 It's passed to a rep and they take ownership of it. Here, we've got a really simple chart that's showing, is there a contact owner? 3:20 Is there a next activity date? What is the lifecycle stage set for those contacts in the CRM? And then from a data perspective, what channels do we have available? 3:31 So in these donut charts on the first one, you can see channel options. This is looking at the contacts that are positive replies. 3:39 What channels are available for the sales rep to use to follow up? Clay is huge here because you can use it to do enrichment, to get mobile numbers, all sorts of additional data points that your reps can use for follow-up. 3:55 And then in the donut chart on the right, you can see the utilization. The power of HubSpot is that it allows you to sync all of your these different events to the timeline. 4:03 And because we have our outbound sync data coupled with HubSpot data, you can see if they're actually making phone calls. 4:10 If they're sending social messages, you can even track direct mail. If they're using something like Sendoso. Finally, we're moving down to converted contacts for first and multi-touch and then deals for first and multi-touch. 4:26 Now by default, we're including multi-touch with a pretty broad view where if this contact existed in the CRM or came in through some other channel, but outbound was involved, we're going to want to count that. 4:37 Now, of course, we'd love to see the situations where outbound is totally on its own creating and generating pipeline. But I think it's important to recognize that the way people buy these days, there's a lot of ways that it might end up coming in and using this type of multi-touch view, you can capture 4:53 that inside of HubSpot. Finally, of course, what matters is deals won. You can see Total Pipeline by Pipeline Stage and then Total Close Won Revenue. 5:03 You can see the count of the deals, the sum of those deals. You could even calculate things like average deal size for outbound versus other types of deals that you're generating. 5:12 And finally, we've got some closing guidance on how to use the dashboard. And then we're using this almost as a distribution channel where at the bottom of the dashboard, we're going to be giving product updates to users to let them know how it works. 5:24 So I'm very excited this has been deployed now in user portals and it's going to be deployed in a lot more over the coming weeks as well. 5:31 As we roll this out to more and more users, uhm, this is the kind of thing that we are trying to accomplish as a company. 5:38 We want you to use the best possible tools for outbound and then get that data into the single place where the rest of your important data lives and get insights to make better decisions and run better campaigns all in one place. 5:51 So I'm really thrilled about this. The feedback from users has been very positive. I'll just say one example is an end user. 6:00 They found that it. They had exceeded their monthly booked meeting goals by, by two. So they booked 52 meetings in the month of September versus 50, which was goal. 6:09 And they had a almost $19,000 worth of closed one booked revenue in that month. So this type of data helped them make much better decisions about managing their outbound budget and ultimately their customer acquisition and their growth. 6:23 So thank you so much for watching. Let me know what you think. What reports would you want to see? What do you think we got wrong? 6:28 What's missing? I would love feedback. This is Jeff. Just version two of this. And I anticipate that we will be publishing new versions of this dashboard on a regular basis. 6:38 Users will be able to install it with a single click using the Superd Chrome extension. And as we have new versions of this dashboard, they can use that single link, click it, install it, and they get the V3, get the V4 and on and on and on. 6:53 It also applies to lists and workflows, which I'm going to talk about more in a future video. Thanks.

Smartlead office hours: Scaling revenue with OutboundSync

Mon, 02 Sep 2024 00:00:00 GMT

Harris had the privilege of joining Vaibhav Namburi, founder of Smartlead, and Akash Ravikumar, head of Customer Success at Smartlead, to discuss scaling revenue with Smartlead and OutboundSync. It was a candid and casual conversation where we explored in-depth topics with Smartlead users in their recurring office hours. ## Transcript 00:02 This session will be recorded. It will be shared on our YouTube by Monday. So please don't worry folks. And yeah, over to you, Weber. 00:11 Uh, what up, what up, what up, how is everybody doing? Hope you're keeping well, healthy, happy and, um, I'll join in and go through this because Harris and I have known each other for a minute now. 00:24 And it's going to be exciting to see what he has to share. He's built, he was the OG, I think outside of Chris, you were the OG integration guy, um, that, you know, started this whole, all the integration on how many ones you created, and obviously, you've, you've hammered, um, upspot. 00:44 A lot, that's how, I think a lot of people, uh, at least know us and know you through that piece. 00:49 So, um, come on, we're super excited to have you on board. Um, Akash over here, who some of you have met will be, um, drilling into Harris's brain to understand how he does the things he doesn't what he has to share. 01:01 But, uh, um, have all your questions dropped into the bottom of the chat, and I'm very confident, um, we'll get Harris's help, uh, as in when there's questions. 01:11 Um, but before that, In true essence, and in true essence of now, I know my Imperial, and my, F***. Um, what do you do this? 01:25 Does Imperial, and there's, What's the other one? That's you all right? Does Imperial and, Metric system? Yes! I got it! 01:37 You all right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, Imperial is the cooked one, and the metric is the right one. That's what we say. 01:43 The American will disagree to that, but it's so good. Um, look, the water boils at 100 degrees. Let's just, let's just leave it at that. 01:52 Uh, right. Um, with that being said, um, welcome on board everyone. Um, drop in where you are from whichever part of the world you're in, whichever city you're in, drop in where you are from. 02:02 We'd love to know because it's always a global conference. I mean, um, global conversation. Everyone, but with that being said, Mike's on to Akash and Harris. 02:09 Um, Um, on that note, maybe for everyone who may or may not know you in the off off chance, Harris. 02:16 Um, I usually ask this as my, um, my interview question, but I'm going to give it away now. Um, so my question, Harris, would you be is, um, if you were to say one thing about yourself that would make everyone remember you by the end of the night, what would be that one thing you'd want to share? 02:35 Okay, interesting. That's a good question. Um, Well, it's just like a random pun fact. I mean, it's really random. Um, so, uh, the actor John Cusack has a nephew. 02:50 I won't share his name, but I was a camp counselor, um, at a summer camp. And he, John Cusack's nephew was on my trip. 03:00 And he ended up getting appendicitis during the trip and a call day in with a satellite phone and a C plane. 03:08 This isn't like the North Woods in Canada. We called it into the satellite phone, a seaplane picked him up, like landed on the lake, picked him up, flew him out, flew him to the nearest hospital. 03:16 And, uh, and he, he totally could have died. He was, he was fine. He was okay, but it was like really, really dicey. 03:22 Um, and so that's the most random and most memorable thing I think of myself is that I saved John Q6 nephews like on a canoe track in Canada. 03:31 Casual flex, casual flex. Yeah, has nothing to do with, uh, enterprise. I didn't even know who he was at the time. 03:36 He was just a kid in this camp. There's nothing to do with Enterprise or anything, but if you want to remember something, there you go. 03:42 You're an honest man. That's it. You didn't care about the fame and fortune. Awesome. Uh, basically I support. Yeah, that's it. 03:49 Um, cool. Well, we'll drop the, the, the, the mic onto Akash and, um, Harris and yes, just run the show, sir. 03:55 We're keen. Thank you for that week. And once again, welcome to one of the session of Smart Feed Officers. My name is Akash, and I'm your customer success manager. 04:07 And today we have Harry Skinny, the founder of OutboundSync. So before I do the intro, Harry, I'll hand over the mic to you. 04:13 So if you want to run down an introduction for yourself, and about OutboundSync, floor is all yours. Yeah, well, it's a privilege to be here. 04:21 And it's really fun to see some people joining in the chat. I just want to say, Like, I definitely want this to be conversational and this probably team was saying I definitely how they like to do things too. 04:29 So, um, please, please, uh, go ahead and throw stuff in there and look forward to the conversation. Um, like Vibob said, I've been. 04:36 Uh, working with smartly for a couple of years now. I mean, I think we were one of the early, definitely one of the early customers, um, and just a huge believer in him's a founder and then the team that he's built. 04:47 And uh, so to be here and speaking of y'all is truly a privilege. I, um, I believe in the platform and what I, what we're going to talk about today and what I'm excited to talk about is, um, I think, no, I think smartly knows those because they see the signups on their website and they see their users 05:02 . But I think most people don't understand the shift that's happening. Right now. And, um, it is substantial. The types of companies that are looking at doing the multi-domain approach that all of us are familiar with, the budgets they have, the team sizes they have, the, Just how big these companies 05:23 are. I think that maybe people don't realize because you're sitting in the smart leads like, you're just talking about deliverability, or you're on social and you see somebody post a cool workflow. 05:32 Using clay, and you know, we all think of each other as like friends and we are friends, but there are people that have been doing this stuff for a long time. 05:40 Go to market people and do this stuff for decades or big, big companies who are seeing what people in this community are doing and are saying, hey, yeah, we should be doing that too. 05:49 Actually, landing in the inbox is the most important thing and focusing on, on deliberately and they're shifting their text acts. 05:56 Towards tools like smart lead. And so I'm very excited to talk about that. I mean, our app integrates with CRMs, but I'm super excited like in my mind, this is going to be kind of, it's kind of what we're seeing because a lot of times they have the requirements that our application is trying to solve 06:08 for, which is a small percentage of smart lead users. Most smart lead users don't need the things that we're going to talk about today, but some do. 06:15 And so I'm really, really excited to talk about today. I mean, that's kind of what's in the back of my head. 06:19 I feel like I'm seeing this happening, but most people don't know about it. And so I'm really excited to dig into that. 06:24 Um, yeah, my name is Harry Kenny, founder of Outbound Sync. We connect smartly with Salesforce, and now HubSpot, uh, excuse me, HubSpot, always. 06:33 We're now in HubSpot Marketplace, and Salesforce, our beta just went live, um, this week. So yeah, really excited to chat with everybody, and thanks for your time. 06:42 Absolutely. Thank you for that, Harrys, and that's the juice of today's conversation that's going to be the core. So talking about integrations, the first topic that we'll be covering is the need for a seamless CRM integration. 06:54 Right. So, we know why it is important as an earlier start-up, you know, you tend to have everything on sheets, et cetera, your pro documents, you run your campaigns, et cetera. 07:03 But, especially in an enterprise grade level, right? Why do you think a CRM integration is important, especially for GTM operations? 07:10 Absolutely. So, the biggest thing I think that as these teams get bigger, what initially, um, companies are just really focused on getting traction in the market. 07:22 Most of the market doesn't know them. Um, if they make a mistake, if they send a campaign to the wrong person or whatever, it, you know, it's okay. 07:30 The company itself is small. It oftentimes hasn't made specific claims about how they handle data or things like that. And so, and, and, and, and there's just more understanding and more grace or tolerance for small companies. 07:45 Um, up on saying, this is a small company. I run a small company, you know. Um, but as companies get bigger, I would say the biggest The thing that happens, the culture shift is that it becomes a team sport where you can't get on a call with one person, basically. 07:58 It's like, there's always going to be multiple people and what those multiple people represent. It's like an iceberg. Each person at that call represents a set of vested interests like stakeholder concerns within that organization about like, oh, well, I'm the Salesforce admin. 08:11 It's very important to me that we not mess up our Salesforce student model. Or, um, I'm the Revops person. I've built workflows for how we handle new leads. 08:20 And if you're going to plug in a whole new lead source, you have to play with the workflows that I have built because they drive our funnel reporting, which go up to the board. 08:30 Or, you know, I'm a sales rep and I'm really used to working in A certain way, handling my leads in a certain place. 08:37 And if you're going to get me leads and they're not there, it's a problem. And I think the biggest thing is that what I'm noticing is that like any one of these people oftentimes can like put a spanner into it, you know, they can stop it. 08:49 They can stop, they can stop very successful campaigns from happening. Because, because they feel like their concerns are not being met or they're not being listened to. 08:59 And so, like, ultimately, you know, the core need of the business is to grow, to reach new customers, to run good campaigns. 09:06 But as the company gets bigger, there's more and more people who care about sort of things that are ancillary and related to that. 09:11 And, um, if we can address those things, then we can do the thing that they brought us in in the first place. 09:15 And then what I'm finding is that agencies in particular that are doing this are starting to unlock Bigger and bigger budgets. 09:23 Um, now we're seeing some of these companies say to their smart lead agency, Hey, we actually also want you to handle our inbound lead flow because we see how good of a job you're doing creating new leads from nothing. 09:38 What if we gave you something to work with, um, you know, and so, and so, you know, if you can, if you can check, check the boxes and you can sort of meet the needs of the different people on the table. 09:49 Um, what I'm finding is that You know, basically, if you're on this call, you have like a 1% of a 1% skill set. 09:56 You, you know how to develop a new business, the hardest way possible, which is like from scratch. And so, you know, and there's some folks here, you know, I see, um, Justin's on here at Xbound, like we were just talking about this. 10:08 Um, there are, there are easier ways to make money. Then the stuff we do with smartly, this is like the hard mode. 10:15 And so if you combine the smartly to approach with better inbound with referrals and in these other ways of selling, um, and I'm finding that these enterprises leaders are getting increasing the comfortable handing those opportunities to their smartly agencies. 10:26 So that's that's kind of the shift that I'm seeing happening. Like if you can meet the needs, there's more budget, there's more opportunity, they want to hand these opportunities to a capable set of hands. 10:35 And if you can do it the hard way, then you can do it the easy way too, right? Absolutely. And we also, you know, we covered a bit of my next topic as well, which is common challenges in scaling sales and marketing efforts without a streamlined process. 10:48 The one thing that I can basically see is everything is all over the place. You don't actually know what's happening. 10:53 You don't know which place of your process has a gap and there's no record of everything that you do. So as a basic sales person, these are a few things which will be solved with a streamlined process. 11:02 And as you mentioned, one other thing that I come across is A lot of people don't want to keep juggling between tools. 11:07 They don't want to be in the CRM for a while on the sales engagement tool for a while, etc. They just want to have everything in one place, makes the job easier, saves a lot of time and boost productivity as well. 11:17 So, are there any other things that you see Harris as a common challenge that people face at this point without a streamlined process? 11:23 Yeah, so I think like one of the biggest things is block lists. Like block and suppression criteria. The most common thing that I've seen stop a campaign that's about to get off the ground or that does get off the ground and is getting positive replies. 11:38 It's all of a sudden like this one person gets email that it wasn't supposed to. And then that bubbles up so the right VP and the VP is like, what the heck is going on? 11:46 Who is this agency? Who is this person? And the agency is like, well look, we're just books like five meetings. 11:53 Like today, this morning, And they're like, yeah, well, you shouldn't have emailed this person. It's like, okay, yeah, okay, got it. 12:00 We didn't mean to whatever. And so it's like process, like you were saying, process around block and suppression lists. That can be a real showstopper. 12:07 Um, and so, you know, part of what we've tried to build with our software, but you don't need to use it about and synced by the way. 12:12 Like, smartly just has a great API. We just try to make it easier. But, you know, you can build ways to dynamically build lists to check for people that meet those certain criteria. 12:22 Um, so I think like You know, again, like if I were to like overall a theme of what I've seen with enterprises, like, there's a lot of people that they're foot like within these organizations, like hovering above the brakes. 12:33 Like looking for a reason to hit the brakes, right? And then in our, in our world, we're like, hey, gas. 12:38 Like step on the gas, let's go find these new opportunities. And so it's like, that's the biggest shift in mindset I've seen as we move up. 12:44 So block list is a really big one. And, uh, you know, I actually see like a lot of tolerance for copy and where we're using copy from. 12:55 Um, handling opt-outs is one, depending on the promises they've made around, um, like communication subscription preferences. Um, that would be another one. 13:03 I would put probably secondary, but, um, a thing. And then sometimes security concerns as well. Um, and kind of how your organization, how your team operates. 13:12 And if you're within one of these teams, you're going to be familiar with this. Um, but, uh, you know, Making sure that you are fine and handling their data correctly. 13:22 Um, because again, a lot of these big companies make promises when they go to the market about how they operate. 13:28 Right. Thank you for this. And probably that brings us to our next question, a showcase in what we have in place, right? 13:34 So how can we use, how can we leverage smartly and all bouncing together? So the floor is for you. If you want to share the screen, if you want to show us how it works, great. 13:43 I'll leave it to you. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Um, yeah. And so I think that on a core level, I'll explain like how the application works. 13:51 So we're taking, um, webhooks in smart lead and we're taking that data, that live feed from smart lead. And we're basically up on things. 13:58 It's in the middle and it processes that data. Um, so I'm going to just pull up like a little flow chart kind of, um, show you how it works. 14:06 Just give me a second. And then I see some nice comments in here Jimmy here to see by the way. 14:12 Um, yeah, I think that's great. I'm glad to glad to hear that it feels like a positive conversation. So if anyone wants to drop in some questions right now, please feel free. 14:19 Um, and otherwise I'm going to share my screen here. Um, right now. Okay. Um, do do. Yep. All right. He's clean. 14:31 All right. Super. Um, so, uh, basically what what Where smart leads is this sales engagement platform right here? This is where the action's happening. 14:42 Um, and of course, you're familiar with smart leads. I'm not going to focus on smart lead, um, like how it works. 14:47 If you don't know how smart lead works, you should reach out to their team. You should go to smart lead.ai. 14:51 Try it out. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna assume for a second that you're familiar with smartly that you've used it before. 14:56 Um, so hopefully that's okay. Um, all right. Um, so this is smartly here. Um, smartly, it's going to be running and when smartly is running, it's, it's, um, shipping, you're shipping campaigns. 15:06 You're sending, you're sending emails and then they're going to get pushed over to App AdSync. Um, primarily we're using the web hook, so emails are sent, replied. 15:14 Um, we've got opens, clicks. Leave category updates on subscribes and balances. Those are the seven primary events that we're supporting right now as a platform. 15:23 Right. And, um, so that data goes into our balance sink, and I'm going to show you what it looks like on the HubSpot side. 15:29 Um, but basically what we're doing is we're prepping that web hook to be pushed into HubSpot. And then we've got some receiving endpoints inside of HubSpot so that when that data lands there, it's being land, it lands in a way that HubSpot wants to see it basically. 15:42 Now, I just want to take a minute to call out that smartly has a very good And robust native integration for HubSpot. 15:49 Um, where people choose to use OutboundSync is that a lot of times it's they want like timeline events, um, and they like the associations between contacts and companies. 15:56 I'll show you what that looks like. Um, but if you're on a team and some of those features don't like seem necessary to you, you should try Smartlead as native integration first, um, and only, you know, only if, if, if you want these other things, you know, do you need OutboundSync? 16:09 You don't necessarily need to have it. By any means, but this, but the timeline events, which I'll show you in a second are kind of, I think, where we really kind of begin to create value for teams. 16:20 Um, so we send that data over into HubSpot, um, and then you can use that to drive other things within the CRM. 16:26 So lists of, like, identifying, like, whoever you step to so far, um, basically rebuilding the master of inbox, like, where are interested replies? 16:33 How do they sit inside of HubSpot? Um, triggering workflows where you're rotating leads within HubSpot. Two different sales reps based on their territory or based on the vertical or things like that. 16:44 Um, reports is another one. Like the main question that people have is like, is the engine? Running and are my campaigns sending or not. 16:53 Um, and then updating and associating properties, which is something that we're still doing more and more of. Um, and then the last thing I'll just mention here is the block list, which I'll talk about in a second. 17:02 Um, so this is just kind of an overflow overview of the flow of data between the platforms. Um, and then what I'm going to do right now is I'm going to pull up our knowledge base because I don't want to share, um, anything I shouldn't be sharing. 17:15 Um, so rather than, um, Actually, you know what he was going to do. I'm going to pull it up off screen. 17:20 I'm going to pull up a test account. Give me one second. Let me just catch my breath here for a second while I get this test account pulled up. 17:27 Um, let's just see. Oh, it's a very kind Kyle, very, very kind comments in the comments in the chat box. 17:34 Um, let me just stop here. Let's see while I'm pulling this up. If anybody has any questions or anything, they'd like us to focus on in particular. 17:40 Um, I don't know if they want drop in the chat or if they're using the Q&A. Are we using the Q&A here? 17:45 A caution or not? Yeah, absolutely. So I know it's on the chat, but we also have a Q&A at the end of the session where they can kind of themselves go for it and ask questions. 17:53 Okay, okay, perfect. Okay, so if you've got anything to drop it in the chat, um, anything you'd like to see in particular, any concerns, any specific ideas that you'd like, uh, ideas or goopy things that you wonder if they're possible. 18:05 And while you're doing that, I'm going to pull up our test account. All right. And the first thing I'm excited to kind of break some news here today. 18:19 This is the first time I've talked about this publicly because it just happened this morning. Um, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna show this, no, I've not done this live before. 18:28 Um, so if this goes wrong, I apologize. Um, let's see if this works. Okay, cool. So literally this morning, I got the email that we got approved. 18:38 And so OutboundSyncc is now in the HubSpot app marketplace. Um, and so now smart leaders, if you, if you look up smart lead in HubSpot, we've got a footprint there, um, which is pretty exciting. 18:50 Um, so anyway, yeah, so, so this is where you can go. If you use HubSpot, you want to check it out. 18:55 Um, you can, um, you can install OutboundSync. In your account and I'll show you how we're doing some of this test stuff. 19:03 So I'm really excited about that and I really appreciate the smart lead team helping us get to this point. Um, so what I'm going to do is I'm just going to, um, show you the application really quick. 19:15 So we're going to sign in with HubSpot. Um, I'm going to pick my test account. Um, I'm going to install it and approve those scopes and cool. 19:29 So, um, what I'm gonna really show you is some test data. So we've built a testing modal inside of, um, our application that allows you to send custom webhook payloads into HubSpot. 19:42 And so I'm gonna show you that test data today. So Jane Dough is our fake contact. Um, and we're able to push communication over to this, um, fake person, um, through OutboundSync. 19:57 And so, Where we're seeing the magic is that these timeline events, basically like when events occur, an email sent to reply is received, a lead is marked as interested. 20:06 That is what we want to do, use to trigger other things. Contact assignment, um, uh, start tracking attribution. So from, from a revenue perspective, one of the biggest things that we see these bigger teams asking for is attribution. 20:21 Like, how do I know that this lead that came from Outbound, um, Resulted in revenue. Um, and so we're writing to a few different properties. 20:32 And again, like you can take this and you can imitate this in your own way. You don't need to have the answer to do this. 20:37 But there are several properties that we're writing to so that when we build reports down the line, we can get credit and say, Hey, outbound generated this opportunity outbound generated this pipeline. 20:47 And what we've seen is that when teams start measuring this time and time again, the outbound effort. Is way outperforming what they were getting credit for. 21:00 And oftentimes outperforming the other channels, um, that cost way more money. So you've got like a trade show budget of like hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars where they're sending all these people doing all these things. 21:13 And then in the background, you've got just this little app on engine running, getting replies booking meetings. And when you put them up against each other inside of a dashboard, inside of, you know, the CRM, it totally shifts the conversation of like, hey, Where did those, where are those deals come 21:28 from? Oh, cold email, huh? Okay. Got it. And, you know, the problem that, um, as up on folks that we get a lot of pressure for is like, what have you done for me lately? 21:37 And sometimes that question, if we're operating outside of the CRM context, if we're operating outside of being able to put our work up against the other works that's being done, then it's really easy to pick it apart. 21:48 But the question is not like, yes, it's how are we doing, but it's also compared to what? How is our cold email effort doing? 21:55 Yes, that matters, but how is the quality of life we're doing compared to other ways that the company is spending money to try to generate new leads. 22:01 And this is where I think the efficiency of a good scaled up on campaign really stands out. But the only way to answer that question is you have to be in the system of record. 22:11 You have to be alongside the other things that they're doing. Otherwise, you're just like giving them a spreadsheet or you're showing them like you're using smartly analytics. 22:18 But Because it's separated, it's just too difficult for teams to reconcile and build side-by-side reports. Um, so, yeah. Um, that's, you know, like we push this stuff in, you can see how it lands in the CRM, but ultimately, like the underlying thing we're trying to solve here is like, we want our work 22:36 to be on the level with the other things that these teams are doing to try to generate new leads. Um, that's kind of like, The the core problem that we're trying to solve for for smart leaders who are working with these bigger teams. 22:48 Um, because it's hard, you know, and like most often like failure mode that I see is that the the outbound group or agency or internal team is not getting credit sufficient credit for their work. 23:01 Um, because the other channels like paid ads, something like that, like Google and social and these other platforms that do paid ads, like they've built integrations into HubSpot. 23:12 Build attribution for all these things. They've provided free trainings and they fly marketers out to their conferences and they provide the dashboards automatically. 23:18 Like, they obviously have a, you know, that's part of their value that they provide as platforms. And so we're competing against that. 23:27 And so it's hard. You know, it's not a level playing field. And that's one of the questions. It's basically the reporting as well. 23:36 So as you mentioned at the end of the day, it's the data, right? And it's great to have it in one place. 23:40 And that's something that I see where people have a bit of integration. You can push data, you can have everything else, but these are things that people are starting to see. 23:48 And especially when you enter the enterprise level, these are things like that I must have, right? You want to see what's the thing across. 23:54 Fair enough. And is there a problem? Yeah. Is there a way you can demonstrate how to create an automated workflow, Harris? 24:02 Like, of course. Yeah, please. We'd love to see that because we know what we do, we know what smartly does, what one thing does, but if it can actually show us a way to demonstrate a workflow, that would really help our users as well. 24:13 Absolutely. Alright, someone give me an idea in the chat about a type of workflow you want to see, or a cost you can use your. 24:19 Uh, imperial host powers, and you just give me an idea, but yeah, give me an idea. I probably say, you know, you're reducing, uh, you know, any workflow that might reduce manual information that can actually end up in a sped up process, something like that. 24:31 I don't want to be too specific. Something that you've seen, which is reduced them. There's one on the chat as well. 24:37 Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Let me see the chat. Hold on. Let me open that chat. Um, CRM. Okay. Cool. Yeah. CRM automation. 24:43 Okay. So let's automate something inside of CRM for sure. Um, Okay, great. Thank you, everybody. Okay, Justin Baum, thank you. 24:50 Okay. So let's see, um, Okay, let's do an example where, um, let's just say we have a pooled approach. So we have an agency or an internal team that has a bunch of connected accounts. 25:02 Okay. Um, in smartly, so they've got let's just say like 100 domains with 100 different email accounts. But you know, we need to map those sending accounts to users in HubSpot. 25:14 So let's say we take like a territory based approach. And we, so we when a, um, and, and let's just say further that these contacts don't already exist in HubSpot, they don't already have an owner. 25:31 Because if they did exist in HubSpot, Then when OutboundSync pushed it over, then it would just update the existing record. 25:38 But let's just say they don't so they don't have an owner, right? And so we're going to do, um, when an OutboundSync campaign occurs, uh, when and a sent email is known. 25:51 We are going to do a branch, um, and let's say we have, um, let's see, let's say we've got, okay, so I'm going to, I'm going to include our commenters here. 26:02 Um, in our workflow. Okay. So we have our Justin branch. We have our bone branch. I'm saying that right. Um, and then we have our Akash branch. 26:12 And then we have everyone else. Okay. So for our Justin branch, what we're going to do is we're going to use OutboundSync's, um, um, custom contact properties to see the latest campaign that was used, uh, that, that, that the email was associated with. 26:30 Right. And let's just say on the smart lead side, when we build our campaigns, um, we, um, put the name of the sales rep at the beginning of the campaign. 26:41 Right. So, um, excuse me. Yeah. So if they leave from, so there's one way to do this is you could say, okay, if the campaign name is from Justin, and it, and this, and the campaign starts with Justin. 26:53 Then what we're gonna do is we're gonna, I'm just gonna build this out for the Justin Branch and then we can mirror it for everybody else. 26:59 Um, we would set the owner to, uh, okay, now I don't have, I don't have Justin here in this case, right? 27:09 Um, but we would rotate the record owner basically to Justin as the, um, as the owner of this account inside of HubSpot, right? 27:17 And then we could also like create a task, um, to follow up. Or this is our sent emails that wouldn't work. 27:23 I'll talk about I'll talk about fallup in a second. Um, so this is really basic. All we're doing here in this case is like really simple workflow. 27:29 We've got one, two, three sales reps. We've got a fallback option here. I'll answer that in a second. I'm a good question. 27:36 We've got a fallback option here. Um, in case somehow our campaign manager forgets the tag of name or something like that. 27:44 Um, and then what we're doing is we're pushing these contacts into HubSpot and we're assigning them based on the campaign name. 27:49 So that's a situation where we have a dedicated campaign for each user within the organization. But let's just say we don't do that. 27:58 Let's say the sending is totally pooled. So what that means is that like you don't have a dedicated account. You just have a single account. 28:07 A single campaign, I mean, and you want to rotate based on the from address that's used by smartly when it's ranking through all the different sending accounts. 28:17 Well, in that case, we could add, um, we could use the contact property group and we could do the, um, let's see, we could do, um, who, who the email was from. 28:31 So we can do last sender, um, address. And so this is the email address of the sending account. So if the email address of the sending account contains Justin. 28:42 And in that case, we want to rotate that owner. Um, and that's a big question from Richard. What I was circling back as well. 28:51 So because in case if there's any name, change a name, do you do it by each mailbox? Yes. Yes. Exactly. 28:58 So in this case, now because we're using this central dress, we're doing it by mailbox. Um, okay. And so Richard's asking, um, Okay, can I do all of these things with Mac.com? 29:06 Yes and no. Um, part of it is that as your volume goes up, um, it starts to get very expensive. 29:15 So we've handled 1.5 million webhooks from smart lead at this point. And as your volume goes up, it, using a Make.com or a Zapier, it starts to get really expensive because you're charging per run. 29:27 Um, the next is that if you want to have these, um, Properties, if you want to do this and you will have to create your own custom app inside of HubSpot, um, in order to have these endpoints to write to. 29:43 So if you're using a make or a zappier, um, by default, like these properties that we're using for this routing, they don't exist, um, as endpoints in HubSpot. 29:53 And so if you, Want to build you basically have to make the app to trigger these events if you if you want to have the workflow being managed inside a fog spot and that is typically what these teams are are wanting. 30:04 They're wanting to run this, um Inside of the CRM. So these are a couple like a routing just on scent. 30:10 And then like, once you have assignment to the sent of the sent contacts, like you can do on any channel workflows, you can trigger call tasks, you can trigger social tasks, um, based on, for example, the lead category. 30:22 So I think that would be an interesting one to do next is showing like lead category based, um, uh, Routing, basically the category D, but let me just jump in here. 30:32 Um, plants integrate with the air table. Uh, we don't have plans to integrate with air table at the moment. Uh, Mohammed, if you want to expand on that, I'd be curious what you mean by that. 30:38 If you mean like air table as an endpoint, like we have a Salesforce and HubSpot or, um, Oh, yeah, if you could expand on that question, I'd be curious to hear what you think there. 30:48 Um, okay, and then I'm seeing some chatter here about like relative tags and how to relate, um, and how those tags relate to the others within the CRM. 30:57 Efficient use of tags and the Relativity of the Rebs vertical and segment and selection of to that particular campaign when automated from the start. 31:05 Yeah, so okay, there's a really good really really good point being made here in the chat so This requires preparation so if you want a route based on like vertical or use case or something like that you need to think from the very beginning about how you name your campaigns Because we can use those 31:21 campaign names for a lot a lot of really advanced routing and logic. And you could also use your campaign naming convention to trigger like different types of, um, enrichments. 31:31 So let's say, um, we have a workflow. I'm just going to start a new one here. Where, okay, it's going to be a contact-based workflow. 31:39 And we got to reply from our, um, from our smartly campaign. Okay, so the reply occurred is known. Okay, and now what we want to do is, and let's just say further that the campaign name contains, um, omnichannel. 32:06 Okay, so this would be, um, a campaign where the campaign manager or the, or the campaign operator. Determined in conjunction with the internal team that, hey, this is a really high-value list. 32:20 We want the sales reps to do phone call follow. We want to go on the new channel. We want to use smartly to lend to the inbox, but we also want to do phone calls. 32:29 We want to do social. Well, one way to do that would be marking that through the campaign name, including like something like omnichannel in there. 32:36 There are other ways to do that, but let's just like use this as an example. Because this is an active workflow. 32:46 When I'm based on what I talk to people, they need this. They use smart read for deliverability, which is great, but they also want to experiment all the other channels. 32:53 And yes, yes, yeah, definitely. And like, I'll just say like that my philosophy is This, if you're using our products and how I think about this and for these bigger teams, like, the CRM is the source of truth. 33:05 Now, there are some companies that are using like Snowflake and Databricks and some of these data warehouse tools. But for most of us, like, the CRM is the source of truth. 33:12 So the question is, like, how do I get smartly to talk to my CRM really, um, fluently so that I can use it as the launch pad for other things? 33:20 So, you know, in this case, like, with this workflow, we've got a campaign. The operator, the campaign operator or manager said it as omnichannel. 33:28 And then we got a reply and we only let's just say we want to call replies to follow up on replies, but you could do this for anything. 33:34 Hobbspot would be the place where the phone number is. And then you'd pick a dedicated calling tool, just like you have a dedicated emailing tool. 33:40 You could pick phone burner, you could pick aorum, you could pick aloeware. There's a bunch of dialing tools. And then you can have that dialing activity happen feeding off of Hobbspot sinking back in. 33:49 Um, same thing with social. Um, and, you know, you can build manual social touches very easily into these types of workflows and like that's I personally do social stuff manual. 33:58 Um, and so there's ways to build that in here. No problem. Um, so the so this would be so we've got this now. 34:06 Let's say like you're paying for a zoom info and you're automatically having zoom info enrich your CRM. Great. Then you just make that call task. 34:13 Right. You just create that task. You set it as a call task, um, and you assign it to the lead. 34:20 Or to the contact owner and you can put the, um, the prospects name in there, which you're going to get from smartly and smartly, as long as you included the name data in your initial import to smartly, that's going to flow all the way through. 34:35 And then, you know, there you go. And then you can drop the phone number in here, right? Um, just in case whatever. 34:41 Now, let's say you don't have a zoom info that's going out, right? You don't have phone numbers in there for whatever reason. 34:52 Here's our have phone, branch, and then we're going to move this under have have phone, and then we have our don't have a phone. 35:01 We can use workflows inside of hotspot. For example, you could go out to a clay table, you could go to make you could go to Zapier, and you could go in rich, get that phone number, push it back into hotspot, and then have that task be created after the fact triggered by, you know, triggered by this workflow 35:17 and then kind of Ripple all the way through and I've got some videos on how to do that that I posted on YouTube. 35:22 Um, it just takes a little time to kind of build that out and show it and then, you know, um, but if you have questions about that, I'm happy to talk about that more. 35:29 Um, and so basically, like, as we talk about Omni Channel, uh, the, the point I would make is. It's a false choice to say, either I use smart lead and I get deliverability. 35:44 Or I use an all-in-one platform and I have to sacrifice deliverability. That's not true. If you're integrating with CRM, you can use your CRM as the platform to orchestrate those other channels. 35:55 And you can have email deliverability. You do not have to choose one or the other. You do not have to choose, like, subpar email deliverability just because you also want to call somebody. 36:04 That is not the case. What you just need an orchestration platform. So the orchestration platform is either your sales engagement tool. 36:11 Or in our case, like what we're supporting is, no, the CRM is the source of truth. That's where your deals are. 36:16 That's where your meetings are booked. That's where your opt-outs are being tracked, like, my believe, it should happen there. And then from from there, you connect the best deliverability tool that you can find for your channel. 36:27 Because by the way, there's better, there's certain tools that are much better for phones. And, um, like, I just philosophically, I just think the odds of one platform getting every single channel right forever. 36:38 Like I had no point in the future with that platform ever be less effective. I just don't think that's, I don't think that's very likely. 36:45 I think at some point someone's gonna slip even if they figure everything out one time. Right, and now as you mentioned, go for the best in each and, you know, we have a workflow where you can control everything from one place. 36:55 Exactly. Before we jump to the last round of Q&A, one of the things that we always cover from your end is Best practices, right? 37:05 So, sure. And if you have any best practices to maximize the benefits of integrating smartly with upspot and Salesforce, uh, as that you say, you do a lot of this. 37:14 So, yeah, absolutely. Um, so honestly, the first thing I'll say is start with the block list. If you email the person that you don't want to email, it's just going to just going to jam everything up. 37:24 Start with the block list. Start with who do we not want to email? And I think you can use that to define, okay, then who do we want to email? 37:31 So like, your block list includes people who have opted out, but it also includes like closed one deals. And so it's a really natural segue into like, let's talk about these closed one deals that you don't want to email. 37:40 Like, who are they? Who's your ICP? Why do you want to email these people? Are there types of deals you want more of or less of? 37:46 So, I would say start with the block list. Um, uh, then make a decision about where the reply is going to be handled. 37:54 Do you want? We can support both workflows. We have customers doing both. Doesn't matter. But you just have to decide like, what is the system of action for the sales rep? 38:07 Um, where's the sales rep going to be doing their thing? Um, uh, and then, uh, and then, and then reporting. 38:14 Um, so now that this I'm leaving a lot out like, I'm assuming you know, how do you smartly do? These are the key ones. 38:20 These are the key These are the key ones. These These These key ones. are the the key key ones. key ones. 38:22 These are the ones. These are the key ones. ones. These are the key ones. These are key ones. 38:39 These are the key ones. Benjamin has been talking about this a lot this week of like the challenges with the current SDR model, um, and where it's going and how people have this like idea of like, well, if I don't get a million dollars in revenue in the first week, this program is a failure. 38:56 It's like, no, these programs take time and, um, and so the way to buy yourself time to build and get buy in from other internal stakeholders within the organization is reporting. 39:08 Show them the engines running, show them the progress that you're making, show them the quality of leads that you're generating and the cost. 39:13 Of acquiring those leads versus the cost of acquiring that trade show lead that you just got that cost, you know, whatever $15,000 to get that one meeting. 39:23 And it's all experiments in the end of the day. We try to be trying. Exactly. Yeah, it might not work, right? 39:29 But, but at least you can say like we tried and here's what happened instead of like, you know, you have a few meetings in row where they're like, where are the leads and then the engagement just fizzles out and that, that stinks. 39:40 If you try it and it doesn't work and you can say here's why it didn't work. Okay, like that's fine. 39:45 It's scientific. We try, we try to learn, right? Um, absolutely. We identify the gap. Exactly. So without further ado, I think, you know, I had questions segmented, but you had one shot where you covered everything, the workflows, how you can build your workflows, etc. 40:01 But lastly, before we jump into the Q&A, one last question is. How can teams continue scaling effectively while maintaining data integrity and operational efficiency? 40:12 Yeah, you know, I think the biggest thing I've seen for teams that want to scale up is they have an internal expert who can talk the talk, whether they build an internal program or they work with an agency, there's at least one person who kind of owns this initiative internally. 40:31 Because, you know, this is a change. This is a different way of doing things. It's similar, but it is different. 40:37 And, um, there will be times where someone has to call in a favor, and they need to get approval for something or they need to get something reviewed. 40:43 Um, for a program to be anything more than a little test that's happening in a little place, you've got to have an internal champion, um, who's who's going to help have the conversation with the security team, who's going to help get buy-in for additional budgets so we can go get more, um, Pay for more 41:02 lead magic credits or spin up more domains or whatever. Um, so I'd say when I think of scale, I think of like longevity and in order for these programs to grow, you need those internal champions. 41:11 We're going to make the case because I've seen bigger companies get it. People can like get away like playing around doing the little test here or there. 41:19 Um, and that's a really good way to start. But if you want to break out of that and increase your retainers or if you're an internal team just like increase your program, um, you've got to have that internal champion who can who can get the Program up to the next level because there's like a false summit 41:33 of like we're in. We closed the deal. We're running our first campaign reasons probably for the first time, but it's like a false summit. 41:39 You're not like fully integrated yet to what they're actually. Like they're going to market plan for the next like two to three years. 41:46 Thank you so much for that. That was all from my end. So probably we'll open the flow for questions. So use us people. 41:54 If you guys have any questions, please raise your hand. Spotlight you and I'll admit to yourself, you can straight up and have your questions asked. 42:04 Justin has a question on chat, so. How do you want to see that? What do you want me to do today? 42:10 Oh, yeah, no, I can, I can be no problem. Um, prospects that internal champion every time, six week trial and champion thoughts. 42:15 Yeah, so, so there's a couple ideas here, right? So the question is like, how do we define that internal champion? 42:19 Well, I'll tell you the first thing is that, like, there's a chance that that internal champion who might advance this program forward. 42:26 They might be in smart lead cycle ready. They might be falling smart lead already. They might be commenting on a Eric Noah's lost key video. 42:32 Um, I've had conversations with internal team with internal like an internal champion where we've been talking to them for over a year. 42:39 Um, let me talk to them to this one person in particular. Um, they're bought in. But they need buy in from other parts of the org. 42:50 Um, now, now it has taken over a year and they are in September going to be standing up a program. 42:57 Um, and what they needed was things that they could show to other people to show this is legit. Um, so yeah, I would say like, if they're biting like, don't work them too hard, if you get engagement from that internal champion, or you see them leaning in, um, try to figure out what is it that they need 43:14 other people in the organization to see to move forward because there's the odds are, I think I'm thinking of a few, I don't want to say the name, so I'm thinking of a few companies right now. 43:26 I can name the people right now. I've talked my head, but I'm not going to do it. Um, who are like this? 43:31 They are championing a bit. They want to move forward with this program. Uh, I had a CRO. This is last week. 43:38 I swear to God, this is real. It sounds like a fake link did post. It was CRO on a call and he was like, look, like if it's lining in spam, like I just, you know, We've already got a budget set for the year. 43:47 It's like, yeah, but you're going to be landing in spam for the next four months. Your budget should be zero to land in spam. 43:52 Like, what is the point of that? And, um, you know, and it's sometimes I had these conversations and they're really frustrated. 43:59 You know, um, if you're one of those people and your organization, if they can't get alignment around doing this, you might find yourself, your skills are valuable. 44:08 You might find yourself building a program somewhere else. I'll just say that. If you're a manager who has someone like this who's watching this, Know that that person that wants to do this, there's skills that's valuable, and then I feel this somewhere else. 44:17 If you want to keep on, you should give him a chance to try something. And if you're trying to sell into that org, figure out who are the blockers, what are the needs that those other stakeholders have? 44:24 Because it's those other people that are probably stopping them from moving forward. It's not like lack of motivation or lack of knowledge. 44:30 They're probably really annoyed that they can't just start ripping campaigns. Absolutely. There's probably really annoyed about it. Probably more than you, even though you want to work with them. 44:41 I've seen that and I feel that from folks. Alright, I see some raised hands. I'm going to shut up. Right. 44:46 Thank you for that. And that's it. I hope that answered your question. So, need to if you can turn on your video. 44:51 I'll spot like to. Yep. Thank you for that. Here you go. Can you unmute yourself? Yeah, hey, sorry, sorry about that. 45:01 Hey, thanks, Harris for going over all that, um, great stuff. Hey, I had a quick question. Um, so I know you said you can I think like end up seeking based off various like types of five bucks for like campaigns and stuff. 45:12 Could you choose just to do it? I guess at the end of a campaign, um, so that when they go into HubSpot, that means like that would essentially mean like the reps know that the email campaign sequence is done so they can then load them to I guess like a call only, which they can then die from or. 45:29 Yeah, great question. Um, so currently, okay, so that's something we can build support for in the future. Let me see how it works, how it works right now. 45:36 Um, if you had a set number of emails in your sequence, if you had like three, you could trigger a workflow off of like sequence email number three. 45:44 When that happens, we're going to consider it closed. Smartly has recently, well, kind of recently introduced like a campaign status web hook that's something that we could support in the future. 45:53 We don't right now, but we definitely could, and we could use that campaign status to trigger what you're talking about. 45:58 So there's a way to do it today, and I think there's a better way to do it in the future, if that's something you're interested in. 46:04 Typically, we kind of listen to users, and if they say they want something, we kind of go there. I'll say that we're looking at building a custom object inside of hotspot for the campaigns. 46:12 So it would be a campaign object inside of hotspot, which I think would compliment really nicely what you just, your idea that you just suggested. 46:18 Okay, cool. Yeah, because I, I figure like, I kind of like the, the waterfall methodology in terms of like an outbound, where it's like, okay, well, we're going to candle all of the emails on the front end. 46:27 And then once it's all completed, then the reps can just focus on like, dialing and then after that, maybe send another web hook for just social or something like that. 46:34 Yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question. I think that I tend to agree with you. 46:40 I think it's easier for the rep to manage it that way. You can do this orchestrated like email phone, email phone across platforms. 46:47 You can totally do it. Yeah. I haven't. Yeah. I think it's hard to get the timing correct based off like, you know, the mailboxes are like this sending and making sure it's like exactly so that because I give it over the last sentence off, then it's gonna, I guess, cascade. 47:00 But yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. If I, if I don't want my reps to hesitate, if I wanted to just go out and like execute, I would, I would totally do what you're saying. 47:08 I'm with you. I don't. I appreciate it. Yeah, for sure. I mean, we all like the visual of the sequence where it's like pop, pop, pop, and it looks really neat, but it's like the reality is we've got to see how's right sitting in front of their computer being like, what do I do today? 47:19 And we want them to just like pick up the phone and just feel great calling and not be worried about like, uh, you know. 47:26 Yeah, for sure. I appreciate it. Yeah, for sure. Great question. Awesome. Any other questions? If yes, you can drop it in the chat or raise your hands. 47:35 That's what I do. And for those of you who joined late, the meeting is being recorded, so it'll be pushed out on a community and on YouTube and Monday. 47:44 So just as an FYI. Yes, as an FYI. Right, if you don't have any questions, I just want to have a drop in a quick message. 47:55 But I don't want to do it. Does anyone have any questions? Last chance everyone. Just not can see them, right? 47:59 Are you gone? Um. Anyway, all right. Um, cool. If there's no more questions, I just want to drop in one quick thing. 48:08 I think we've all seen it all across social with respect to Google and the fun that they're pushing the rollout hard. 48:16 Like I've never seen Google push that rollout as like a general rollout that hard, but they've pushed that rollout hard. 48:21 Everyone is now getting messages even on their phones everywhere saying, you know, um, and they did something very sneaky, which is the, um, which is not the best thing to do, but I get what they're trying to do. 48:35 If you look at the on a user experience perspective, they use the same formatting as what would be used to mark an email or tag an email to spam, right? 48:45 They could have used something else. They could have put it like in a like a pink orange or anything of the brand colors, but they use the same exact setup. 48:53 So I actually got this message several weeks ago. I just ignored it because I thought that was just asking me to spam someone, like, mark some spam and I was like, maybe let's not do that. 49:06 Who knows if they're actually a smart key customer. Um, but then the other day, I realized that that's actually a very sneaky, dirty move they've done, which is, um, or whatever movie I'm going to call it, the dumb where they've given the same emblem as You know, preview emails or preview images as the 49:23 same as Mark and email as spam. So for just a reference point for everyone over here, um Harris probably knows this. 49:29 The way most popular tools do most tools doing somewhat common practice is the injected tiny little baby pixel into the email and When that pixel is rendered or opened, um, the assumption is that the email is viewed or opened or whatever it is, right? 49:45 It's similar to when you open an image, that request goes through and fetches that data. Now, there's nuances to how you can make it more accurate, improved, and so on and so forth. 49:51 But that's the, the baseline crux of it. So what Google has basically done. Remember, the point of it is rendering. 49:57 So what Google's done is they found a nice little sneaky way to prevent images from being rendered. So now, it's not even the fact that open rates are like being, uh, affected or deliberately has been affected. 50:08 That's not even a concept. It simply just means people are actually opening your emails and you actually don't know because they literally don't want to you to know that your emails being opened, right? 50:17 So what's next is going to be a fun one for a lot of us to actually see how it goes on. 50:22 Now, the common ways, um, Harris, maybe a question for you, then maybe I'll parlay in. What's something you think people can do now, um, To sort of offset this in some way. 50:36 Yeah, so, yeah, the idea is like returning off of open tracking. I've seen people, you know, it's funny because while open tracking is kind of, um, maligned, I guess, and a lot of people don't do it. 50:49 We have users who have been using the open track as an indicator of interest and it's been working like pretty well for them. 50:53 Like, so it, you know, I think that probably, I think that probably what I would do would be some kind of reporting where I'm looking at a combination of the smartly lead category that's getting assigned and then if you're also using a CRM like using your real world rep updated data of like which leads 51:16 move forward with lifecycle stage because sometimes you get a reply where it's neutral and so smartly isn't categorized it but then if the rep isn't in smartly they don't update smartly so the smartly record isn't current where it's like oh this is actually a good lead. 51:28 It got moved forward to a sales qualified or a deal, opportunity or whatever. Um, so I would say using a combination of smart lead and then whatever the rep is manually curating in terms of the data and then trying to like map out and say like, um, anything that anything that is, is an interested reply 51:44 , trying to infer like that those are better types of leads. But at the account level, uh, there's, there's nothing you can do with email. 51:52 I mean, you can go on my channel or you could just try to, um, Infer from leads that move forward that like, let's go try to find out like that. 52:02 I'm in a kind perspective that some information is you're doing. Yeah. You're trying to draw parallels to some extent. Okay. 52:08 Yeah. Exactly. Or just go on each channel. You know, I think it's the other one's like, you just pick up the phone and stuff like that. 52:15 But no, it's a tricky one because it's useful. And like also like almost every single platform that does any sort of email provides this as a metric. 52:22 And I think it frankly, like, you just don't care. Generally, you can turn off images from loading if you want. 52:27 I have that. I've done that on my personal email. So yeah, it's, this is a tricky one. I'm, I'm surprised a little bit how they've done it as well. 52:35 No, that's fair. I think they're just trying, because the thing is it's, okay, the outbound stuff, fair enough, whatever. But it also impacts a lot of the newsletters, right? 52:42 Like all the newsletters, they, like every newsletter of mine now has that banner showing up at the top. So it's quite clear. 52:48 That's what's happening. Let's see. So interesting for those set of people. But, um, yeah. What I did want to hear is a renderer image, right? 52:55 Yeah, it just dropped an image in there, I guess. So it's not, so that it's not invisible, I guess. True. 53:00 Very true. But here's the thing to remember, or keep in mind, is it's not stopping images from being rendered. That's what's happening. 53:09 It's stopping invisible or like images that are hidden. From being, there's a very, very stark difference. So Google being very sneaky over here, because they know, uh, the Clavios, the active campaigns, the Mailchimp's, if newsletters are meant to look nice and fluttery and fluffy and pretty with images 53:28 , they're not doing that. If you're hidden an image, that's when they show that. So very specific, right? So they're trying to take on people. 53:36 Here's my smart lead product idea. What if you were to like, But if you were to put your logo in the footer and you'd use that logo image as like, uh, as the tracking image instead of an invisible one. 53:45 I know that you can't do that or you don't need to do open tracking at all. Uh, and we've got a fun one coming up in about, uh, sorry, I'm going to steal that and parlay to the next thing, which is we've got a fun one coming out in about a week's time. 53:58 So everyone feel free to refresh your application on the Friday or Monday the week after. And, um, hopefully we fix this all together for everyone. 54:07 And, uh, it's come as a nice little, uh, uh, what's it called? A nice little God's blessing. That Google has decided to do this right when we're about to release a complete new revamped way of tracking, um, uh, deliverability. 54:22 So, uh, let's see how it goes. But that's also a cool idea, by the way, to drop in your logo and make that a custom, um, make it custom. 54:30 So people actually don't know that that is an image that's actually very cool. It's a good one. That's a good one, Mr. 54:38 Kenny. That's a good one. Um, thank you. Um, thank you. Well, of course you're working on stuff. I mean, I'll just wrap by saying I'm so excited about being here and I appreciate the opportunity and change is always happening, right? 54:47 Change is the only constant. And here's the thing. It's like, if you're going to be in a fox hole, who would you rather be in that fox hole with the smart lead engineering team? 54:55 I mean, you know they're going to come up with something. They, you know, it's just like, wrap it out of the hat time and time and time and time again. 55:02 Um, so I, I love you. I can't wait. I genuinely don't know. What? No, I know. I'm very excited to learn about it. 55:09 I really don't know what it is. I know what I'm talking about. It's very high. Yeah, I hope we live up to it. 55:15 Um, we've been very shocked about it, but, um, it'll be, it's been fun because of seeing what's happening with the whole ghoul. 55:20 Things will be a fun one. But, um, easy peasy. So, um, just a nice little call out for everyone. Um, look forward to it next week and hopefully we keep making you print some more money. 55:29 Is there any closing marks, um, from Akash or? Covered it. Alright, well, thank you. Um, as it is, as always, as we say, there's three constants in life. 55:39 There's taxes, debt, and office hours on Thursdays. I will see you all next week. Thank you. Take care and goodbye.

OutboundSync is now in the HubSpot App Marketplace

Thu, 29 Aug 2024 00:00:00 GMT

It's been over a year of hard work and I am THRILLED to announce that OutboundSync is listed in the HubSpot App Marketplace! Here's a fresh demo showing how it works. To try it out, go to the HubSpot App Marketplace and search for "OutboundSync". Then, install the app in your HubSpot portal. Find OutboundSync in the HubSpot App Marketplace today ➔ ## Transcript [00:00:00] Hey there. My name is Harris Kenny. I'm the founder of Outbound Sync, and I'm excited to share with you how teams are using our app to transform their outbound. Now, if you're watching this video, I'm going to assume you're probably already using HubSpot as your CRM. Then you're evaluating SmartLead for your cold outbound, or you're using it and simply looking for a better, deeper integration. [00:00:20] In either case, you're in the right place. Let's start with Smartlead, then I want to show you how this all looks inside of HubSpot. Smartlead is a powerful outbound platform that's geared around deliverability. This is not the same as what you're going to do with your sales hub sequences. With Smartlead, you're reaching net new prospects, and there's a whole suite of features and very specialized capabilities around cold email and landing in the primary inbox. [00:00:45] The challenge with a tool like this is that you want to integrate it with the rest of your workflows so that your team can execute their tasks, create deals, and deliver. Have reporting and all the other things that you've already built into your current system of record, which is HubSpot. Outbound Sync is a connector app that allows you to create webhook and API connections between SmartLead and HubSpot. [00:01:06] We also allow you to forward that data onto additional tools like Clay, Zapier, Make, N8n, and more. The way it works is we sit in the middle, we catch your campaign data, and we have some features built in there that we can do like, for example, assigning companies, assigning contacts, creating tasks, and filtering based on lead category so that you only send interested leads over to your HubSpot account. [00:01:31] Once you've got everything configured, the data starts to flow. Let's see what it looks like inside of a HubSpot portal. Now, we're going to take a quick spin through the contact and company objects, an example list, an example report, and example workflows to show what's possible. Here, in this contact record, you can see that we created a contact in a portal that has the HubSpot Salesforce Data Sync enabled. [00:01:53] You can see the emails are being logged as emails in the timeline. You can also see timeline events. music ends which can be used later on for lists, workflows, and a lot of other things. Going to the company object, you can see that we are associating these email activities up at the company level, which can be really helpful for ABM or account based marketing and sales workflows. [00:02:13] You can see that we're building lists of contacts. We can also build lists of companies. These lists can also be used as block lists in HubSpot. You can take contact and company lists from HubSpot, push them to SmartLead so that they don't receive any further communication. You can go a step further by doing subscription types and managing opt outs for cold outreach specifically inside of your HubSpot account. [00:02:36] Now let's look at reports. These are a few really basic ones, but if you look at outboundsync. com and if you look at our HubSpot app marketplace listing, you can see a lot more examples. The idea is that you can replicate a full reporting infrastructure inside of HubSpot, living alongside the rest of your data so you can compare Outbound with your other initiatives, trade shows, paid advertising, content, and other things that you're doing to generate new leads for your business. [00:03:02] When it comes to workflows, there are unlimited possibilities. In this case, I'm showing you what it looks like to take a reply, create a new lead using HubSpot's lead object, and assign it to that contact owner. Then we're checking to see if that contact has a mobile number or not. If it does, great, we're going to create a call task. [00:03:19] If it doesn't, we're going to use Operations Hub Pro and send a webhook over to Clay to check multiple providers to get a phone number for this new contact and lead. Let's look at an example of interested lead follow up. In this case, we're only wanting to service interested leads specifically to the sales team. [00:03:37] We're using the lead category that we get from SmartLead. We're defining a lifecycle stage of this lead as being an MQL. And then we're assigning the lead to the sales rep for follow up. Lastly, this is handling opt outs. You can see a very simple workflow that's taking the unsubscribe event from SmartLead and updating the subscription type for one to one outreach inside of HubSpot. [00:04:00] allowing us to have consistent rules across both platforms when it comes to opt in and opt out communication. If you're ready to start syncing your data today, go to the HubSpot app marketplace, search for outbound sync, and then sign in to install the app in your HubSpot portal. Thanks.

Announcing our Smartlead and Salesforce integration

Tue, 27 Aug 2024 00:00:00 GMT

Over the past year and a half, we've built a robust Smartlead and HubSpot integration, syncing over 1.5 million webhooks and connecting 130 properties. Realizing our users' need for a direct Salesforce integration, we developed a custom solution. In the video below, I demonstrate how the integration logs activity from Smartlead, maps email addresses, and links activity to account levels using our testing modal. For more information and to join the beta, visit OutboundSync for Salesforce. ## Transcript ### Introduction and Welcome [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: Hi there! My name is Harris Kenny. I'm the founder of OutboundSync. [00:00:03] In this brief video, I want to show you what we've been working on, which is the first Salesforce and Smartlead custom integration. ### About OutboundSync [00:00:11] Harris Kenny: Now, if you're not familiar with OutboundSync, we've been spending the last year and a half building a Smartlead and HubSpot integration. [00:00:18] We've synced over one and a half million webhooks between the platforms, connecting 130 different properties with two way block lists and a lot more. ### Why Build a Salesforce Integration? [00:00:27] Harris Kenny: We noticed that a lot of users were actually using our HubSpot integration to sync to Salesforce. And after speaking with them, this left a lot to be desired. It seemed like the best next step was for us to start building a Salesforce integration ourselves. ### Demo of the Integration [00:00:43] Harris Kenny: Now, rather than talk about it a bunch, I'm just going to jump right in and show you how this works. [00:00:48] We're logging activity from Smartlead,we're mapping the addresses for the email, the sender, the recipient, and we're also relating that activity up to the account level. ### Technical Details [00:00:59] Harris Kenny: Now, just really quick, the way that we're doing this is we're using OutboundSync's testing modal. And what this allows us to do is this allows us to send custom payloads over from OutboundSync, into Smartlead. Now of course, the way this will work when you have Smartlead connected, is that it'll be your actual campaign data. ### Example Use Case [00:01:19] Harris Kenny: And here you can see an example of a contact, Jack Dough, which has an account associated with it. And then the email activity. And notice that these are logged as activities as emails with the subject line, and the time, and you can see this is true across these different test payloads that we sent over, including both sent emails and we can also log replies, bounces, and quite a bit more. ### Conclusion and Next Steps [00:01:46] Harris Kenny: If you're interested in learning more, go to outboundsync.com/integrations/salesforce to sign up, to be notified as this beta goes live.

From email opens in Smartlead to social tasks in HubSpot

Wed, 07 Aug 2024 00:00:00 GMT

In this video, I demonstrate how to integrate multiple tools and data providers, including Smartlead, OutboundSync, Clay, and HubSpot, to automate the process of identifying and enriching sales leads. The workflow involves taking contacts with multiple email opens, retrieving their social profiles, creating tasks, associating tasks, and enriching contacts in HubSpot. I detail the process with instructions on utilizing API calls, setting filters, creating workflows, and handling custom properties. Our goal is to improve sales efficiency by automating follow-up actions based on contact engagement. ## Transcript ### Introduction and Overview [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: Hey there, in today's video, I want to show you how you can take a multiple open contact from a Smartlead campaign, get their social contact, and then create a task, associate the task, and then enrich that social profile in HubSpot. And in this video, we're going to use OutboundSync, Clay, a few different data providers, Smartlead, and then of course HubSpot. [00:00:23] So here you can see the final result in this shared table. I'm going to explain everything that we're doing here, but just at a really high level we've got a contact that we sent over through a test payload in OutboundSync. [00:00:35] And so this is a test, Email open, which is our trigger. And then what the user wanted to do is they wanted to know if there's contacts where they have multiple opens on an email and then take for the sales reps to take action on those multiple open contacts. [00:00:51] I sent that test open activity over into HubSpot and you can see the after, after factor, the end result here. We've got a task. We've got a social profile, but I'll explain how we did those things. ### Setting Up the Workflow in HubSpot [00:01:02] Harris Kenny: So we sent over that test payload with OutboundSync. [00:01:06] Then we use a workflow in HubSpot. We want to find contacts where they have an OutboundSync opened email and that event was sent more than three days ago. In other words, that open webhook was fired off more than three days ago from Smartlead. ### Filtering and Static Lists [00:01:21] Harris Kenny: And so just to review and show you how to find this in OutboundSync. So we go to filters and then in HubSpot, select for open properties, and then we would be getting the event timestamp from those open properties, and then we're setting it to being more than three days. [00:01:35] then we're going to add it to a static list because we don't want to be doing this multiple times. We just want to run this if a contact multiple opens any given email, they're going to be enrolled in this workflow. And you can see the static list here. And this static list is going to be our source inside of clay. [00:01:54] So we're importing contacts from HubSpot from this static list. Uh, and the list in this case is called OutboundSync open three plus days. We're getting the contact ID, the owner ID, the email address. And then this is data that we're getting from OutboundSync, which is the campaign name and the campaign ID. ### Integrating with Clay and SmartLead [00:02:14] Harris Kenny: Now we're going to look up that lead in SmartLead using Clay's integration. Clay has a built in integration, uh, with SmartLead. And so we're going to use that email address to do a lookup. And what I'm going to do here is I'm going to switch the view on this table so that I can show you specifically what's happening in those enrichments. [00:02:29] Just give me one second. All right, we are back. And this is the full proper table in Clay. Um, you can see a lookup here now. Oh. I've got, uh, the smartlead API key connected, but I'm also going to use an API call in a second, uh, in smartlead. And let me show you that next. You're going to notice that there's no lead found here. [00:02:48] I just want to note really quick that I don't want to show real data. So this is just, uh, test data. In another table, I ran this and these lookups do work. ### API Calls and Task Creation [00:02:57] Harris Kenny: We find our lead and then we're going to do an API call into Smartlead. Now I'm going to zoom in here so you can see we're doing this as an endpoint directly into Smartlead. [00:03:08] And then you're going to need to enter your API key here, and you're going to look up based on the campaign ID. And the ID and Smartlead that we get from this lookup and what we're going to return from that. One of the properties that we're going to return from that will be the open count. So we're going to map that out. [00:03:24] And then we have a conditional formula here where if the open count is greater than two, return true, otherwise return false. The next piece of this is that we want to use social for opens of two or more. And you may have loaded a social profile in your initial Smartlead list up front. So we have a merge column here, um, that is checking if you did that. [00:03:49] So we're pulling from that Smartlead column. And then if not, if that's null and if that's empty, then we have that as a run condition to trigger checking, uh, these four different providers to see if any of them have a social profile. And then there'll be a merge between the first choice of being, if you did it already in Smartlead or the second choice from the enrichments. [00:04:10] So now we know we have a contact in HubSpot that was sent an email through Smartlead synced with OutboundSync. We know they've opened the email multiple times. And we have their social profile. So we want to create something where HubSpot can be used as the system of action for the sales rep. Let me drill down and show you how this works. [00:04:36] All right. I just verified that my API keys are not going to be displayed. So, uh, the first thing we're going to do is we're going to create a task. So you can see the API call that we're doing here. I'm just going to scroll into the body of this API call, and you can see the variables that we're referencing from Clay. [00:04:51] And then your API key would go down here. Now, if you want to do this, you're going to need to create a connected app in HubSpot in order to do these API calls, and you're going to have to set the proper scopes for that. In other words, have the proper permissions in order to do these tasks. That's a little bit, I was going to say outside of the scope of this video, because I just want to stay focused here, but that's the missing piece here, you need to have a connected HubSpot app with the appropriate permission to do these API calls. [00:05:16] Now that we've created a task, we want to associate that task with the contact. So we are going to run this API call to do that. And you can see, again, we're referencing these IDs that we're using earlier in this table, again, using that API key. ### Final Steps and Custom Properties [00:05:32] Harris Kenny: And then finally, I figure why not add that social profile to HubSpot since we have it and we're going to reference it in the task in the first place, but we might as well add it as a property and HubSpot as well. [00:05:43] So we've got a patch API call designed to do that and we're taking that. Now, I just want to. This is the last little thing here that they think about that's maybe not shown in the video is that social profile is not a standard property in HubSpot. So we've created that as a custom contact property in the custom contact properties group. [00:06:02] We're calling that out here when we update that specific property. And then we're going to run the rest of the way. And so what that's going to look like in practice is that a task is going to get assigned three days after an email goes out and it's been opened at least once. We're going to check if it's been open multiple times. [00:06:22] If it's been open multiple times, we're going to get the social profile, either from smartlead or from data providers. Then we're going to take that information to create a task, associate the task and enrich the contact object in HubSpot. ### Conclusion and Next Steps [00:06:38] Harris Kenny: So give it a go. Let me know what you think. I, um, I think it's pretty cool. [00:06:41] And this is just the beginning. There's a lot of things you could build on top of this associating companies, doing other things, but hopefully it's a helpful start. Thanks.

Report a bug, get a cookie

Mon, 22 Jul 2024 00:00:00 GMT

Join Harris Kenny, the founder of OutboundSync, as he unboxes a special delivery from the Grove Cookie Company. This is sent as part of our bug bounty program, where users who report bugs are rewarded with cookies. In this video, Harris shares the contents of the box, including a personalized note, information about the cookies, and the unboxing process. If you're interested in the intersection of customer appreciation and delicious treats, this one's for you! ## Transcript ### Introduction and Purpose of the Video [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: Hey there, I'm excited to share an unboxing video. We have been doing something for users who report a bug. And our product and as long as engineering confirms it to bug and to pay the ship a fix for it. We are, can it considering that a bug and we are enrolling them in our cookie program. [00:00:16] Thought it'd be fun to do an unboxing video on. ### Background and Personal Experience [00:00:18] Harris Kenny: Take back to my old hardware days. Because I used to work in a computer hardware for about six years 3d printers and then a Linux PCs. So we used to do a lot of unboxings. We worked with a lot of creators. I think before it was cool. ### Unboxing Begins [00:00:34] Harris Kenny: All right. [00:00:35] So. There we go. Nice brown box. [00:00:38] All right. Hey. Message for you. See what this is in here. ### Exploring the Package Contents [00:00:42] Harris Kenny: Nice brown, recyclable paper. Got the receipt. Got a little postcard. About the Grove Cookie [00:01:00] Company. [00:01:00] Menu and ingredients. That's a nice touch, this little QR code with more information about the nutrition and stuff. And then it's got all the details for all the different cookies on here. If you've got a. Allergy or aversion to anything. ### Special Note and Cookie Details [00:01:12] Harris Kenny: Oh, I left my, I got my little note in here. So this says we're sorry, you found a bug in OutboundSync. And then I explained the bug they fixed. The fix is now live and in production as a token of our appreciation, we want to send something sweet your way. Thank you. [00:01:25] Cookies remain fresh seven to ten days after the date on the shipping label. Uh, which this shipping label is july 18th. And then I'm opening this on July 22nd. So, you know, over the weekend, So it's still, still good for a few more days. Although I suspect I'll be eating them. As soon as I stopped recording this video. [00:01:46] A message for you and then uh, let's see here. Yeah. You can see our little logo on there. The note. Detailing it. Pretty cool. [00:01:58] So as a branded exercise, let's see if I can get this to. Okay. Got a little brand on there and then here's our cookies. [00:02:07] Four inch cube. And enhancing your cookies. One relationship at a time Marie and Grayson Hoggard founders. Pro tip reheat for 10 to 12 seconds in the microwave. Okay. [00:02:20] On the side, it's got the flavors, the ordered. I ordered those cause my daughter is going to want the sprinkles. And then the founders and there's the cookie company. So it's a nice mix. They throw your brand in there, but then they've also got obviously some of their own, it's good to know where the cookies came from. Made in Oregon. [00:02:37] Okay. Opening the box here. Here's our open box. [00:02:42] More paper. [00:02:53] Very securely wrapped. [00:03:00] So here's our little cookies. [00:03:01] Everything came in. Great shape. I love the labels. Love the printing quality. ### Final Thoughts and Recommendations [00:03:04] Harris Kenny: I'm definitely going to continue this program. [00:03:07] So if you're a user and you find a bug and in OutboundSync, let us know and you'll get cookies. [00:03:11] Probably the first person I saw posted about it was Jen Allen. Um, so thanks Jen. For the for the idea, and yeah, if you're doing sales, marketing stuff, I recommend it. I think it's nice to send something physical, tangible, and the process itself is pretty easy. So I spin up a page for the user. I send it to them and they enter all their address information. [00:03:29] It's been very easy. It's very easy on the sending side. And now that I'm a recipient, I'm excited to eat the cookies. I am not going to eat them here in front of you. Cause I just don't post that kind of content. But, uh, but yeah. I'm excited that the cookies I'm going to eat them tonight and Grove Cookie Company. [00:03:44] I definitely recommend it and good as a sender. Good as receiver, really easy. It came in a nice box boxes in great shape. Check them out.

Enriching HubSpot with Clay (Part 3: Mobile phone numbers)

Fri, 19 Jul 2024 00:00:00 GMT

Welcome to the third part of our five-part series on enriching HubSpot using Clay! In this episode, we delve into the step-by-step process of fetching and validating phone numbers using multiple providers. Learn how to integrate social profiles, format phone numbers for HubSpot, and create an efficient omni-channel outbound sequence. This video shows one more future-proof oriented approach. We focused on maximizing odds of connection by discovering multiple numbers—with room to adapt later and make as much data available as possible, with a preference for quality vendors. Don't miss the insights on how to automate tasks and enhance outreach with both email and phone calls. Make sure to catch up on the first two parts to be able to do everything you see in this video. And stay tuned for the final two videos, building up to tracking your contact's job changes in HubSpot with Clay. ## Transcript ### Introduction and Series Overview [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the third part in my five-part series about how to enrich HubSpot with clay. Now, there was a delay between the second and third part of this series, because I basically came up with a few different ways of doing this. And then I put confident, other idea, start over another idea, start over now. [00:00:16] I really think that the way that I've landed is the most future-proof. And so I wanted to make sure to get it right and to share it because I suspect that there's going to be a lot of changes in time as Clay adds to new providers. And as those providers, some of them get more accurate, others are proven to be less so. Things like phone validation through phone ready leads and other tools become more ubiquitous. ### Recap of Previous Parts [00:00:39] So before we jump in, I just want to remind you to go back to the first two parts of this series, if you haven't seen them already. This video relies on things that were established in the earlier videos, how to use HubSpot lists, how to create lists or tables in clay, with HubSpot as a source. And de-duping based on the record ID in HubSpot. [00:01:00] So you need to understand those things. If you want to build on top of that progress and keep going here, please go back and watch that. ### Final Deliverable and Future Plans [00:01:07] And towards the end of the video, I'm going to show you, not only the providers that throughout the video, I'm gonna show you the providers and the enrichment process, which I think is pretty unique the way we did it here. But I'm also going to show you at the end, how you can integrate this with a full omni-channel outbound sequence with social, with phone all orchestrated through HubSpot and with those numbers in those social profiles, all populated into HubSpot. [00:01:29] That's the final deliverable for this video. And then keep in mind that we are moving towards the final release final video of the series of five on job changes. That feature is officially in public beta now in Clay. This social profile and other information that we're building is going to be really useful. When we find that someone has changed their jobs. ### Starting the Phone Number Enrichment Process [00:01:48] But let's get into this one, which is about phone numbers. We've got a list here. This is an active list and HubSpot, these are ones where there was no phone number left. So there's actually not that many here. You're going to find in the other videos, we had a lot more, in the beginning and then over time it wore down and I've got the contacts blurred here, but this is an example where we don't have a mobile number. But we do have a social profile. ### Using social Profiles for Phone Number Retrieval [00:02:10] And the reason those are the filter criteria is because basically all the mobile providers are using social profile as their unique identifier. [00:02:18] Now, I've got this blurred because there's just tons of personal information here. [00:02:21] I'm going to move over to a different view to walk you through the spreadsheet. But I just wanted to show you, this is real. This is populated. We've got 353 rows across quite a few different providers. And I'm going to walk you through that in a second, but just the data is here under this, under the surface, but. Let's just focus on this view. Which is going to lay out the entire process inside of Clay. [00:02:43] We're starting with that import contacts. This is that list in HubSpot where we do not have a phone number, but we do have a social profile. And there are additional filters you can add to that list. You may not want to get phone numbers for everybody in your system. You may want to only get phone numbers [00:03:00] for leads that come in through outbound. Or you may want to get leads that hit MQL status or some other criteria that you might want to select for when you get a phone number. ### Provider Prioritization and Data Formatting [00:03:09] Now we go from our list, and using that social profile, to our providers. What I want to note here is that this is a very expensive way to do it. I am using basically every provider in Clay, I'm using six different providers to get phone numbers. I'm going to explain why in a second, but I've got them in order and I'll show you the, the actual. Prioritized order that we're using in the table itself. This isn't the prioritized order. This is alphabetical order of the providers. [00:03:35] We're starting with Lead Magic. Then we go to Forager. Then we go to Datagma. People Data Labs. Nimbler and then Contact Out at the end. That's the actual order of operations and we're going to be merging numbers. In order. To get our first mobile number, starting with our highest quality provider, which is Lead Magic. And then going down the list. So basically for the first number we get, I will [00:04:00] take the first number I can find in the waterfall. [00:04:02] In order to get the second number I'm going to use these results from all six of these providers and actually clean up format and put all six of those numbers into a combined cell. And then at the end, I'm going to say, Hey, get me a second number that does not match whatever results were returned from the first numbers. And so this is going to give me two numbers in HubSpot that I can call. [00:04:25] I think this is a great hedge for issues with potential accuracy or phone validation, because in my experience I've been using this, I've been dialing numbers. I have yet to find a situation where both numbers were incorrect. And because I'm prioritizing the highest quality vendors. A lot of times they agree with each other. And that first number that I call is the right one. [00:04:42] But if they don't, the second number again is typically coming from a higher quality vendor before we get to the bottom of the waterfall. And it's, this has been working very well for me. I am getting connects to the right numbers. Consistently. [00:04:54] So some of these providers are providing numbers that are ready for HubSpot immediately. Like Forager does. And People Data [00:05:00] Labs, others like Lead Magic, I just had to put a plus sign on the front of the number. I can just show you what that looks like. [00:05:06] as long as there is a number there, we're putting a plus sign before it, because that's the way that HubSpot is going to want that number to be formatted. Datagma we're gonna combine the country code. And the number itself, and then throw that plus sign in there. [00:05:18] That's an interesting one. I think, especially. Those numbers are varied in terms of how they're formatted. They're not consistently formatted. So what we're doing to get a consistent number, out of Contact Out is that we're actually running a GPT prompt. Now I'm going to scroll through this so you can pause in the video, but I've got the formatting standard from HubSpot's actual knowledge base about how they want phone numbers to be formatted. [00:05:44] And so I'm feeding this into a GPT prompt. I'm giving it that contact outnumber. And then as an output, I'm getting a clean formatted, HubSpot ready number. And I am using these numbers, these consistently formatted numbers to ultimately [00:06:00] find a first number and then a next unique number, because they're all going to have identical formatting. With the plus and no dashes, no spaces, no parentheses, nothing unusual. And that allows me to get a second number. And then it's those two numbers that I push over to HubSpot through this enrichment column at the end of the table. ### Integrating with HubSpot [00:06:19] Now, if you're not paying for. And that's where that drives over here. Right? And I'll just show you this really quick. So if you're not paying for the Clay edition where you've got, um, hubSpot enrichment. You can do this through an HTTP API call as well. But obviously. If you're using HubSpot, you're a HubSpot power user. I would encourage you to think about paying for the Clay tier that makes us easy. Um, so that's what we're doing here. And let me just show what it looks like inside of HubSpot itself. [00:06:52] Um, so this is an example of a contact record, and this is what those numbers look like when they push the HubSpot. [00:06:59] I just want [00:07:00] to underscore that. As a sales rep, I am doing nothing. These numbers are being added for me. Dynamically. Checking multiple providers and being pushed directly into the record directly into this view here on the left side of the screen, on the left column. And as a rep, I'll have to do is hit the, hit the call button in HubSpot, and I can get on the phone with these contacts and if the first number isn't good, I've worked down to the second one and hopefully the second one is good. This is all happening behind the scenes. [00:07:30] And I just want to show you these example lists that we've got here. So we had, outbound campaigns that we've sent the test campaign. We've got 108 emails that we sent out. And of those, we were to get able to get phone number matches for 86 of them. So that means that for 86, out of 108 contacts, we can now go omni-channel. And I want to show you what a workflow looks like there. ### Workflow Automation and Task Creation [00:07:53] So we've got an OutboundSync, email sent. The sequence number is one. [00:07:57] In other words, that's the first email in the sequence and we [00:08:00] can find a phone number. In that situation, we're going to create a task to call that contacts. We're going to delay for a day, and then we're going to create a task to connect with them on social sales navigator. All in HubSpot, this campaign is running, these omni-channel tasks are being created for me. [00:08:16] Now there's other ways to do this. If you're paying for sales hub, enterprise and HubSpot, you could auto enroll in a sequence, potentially, or you could just kind of pass the task over and then manually enroll in a sequence that would do these things. [00:08:29] But frankly, I think that for us, for my use case workflows is pretty good way of doing this. It's feeding these tasks into my task lists and these tasks are going to show up in the prospecting workspace in HubSpot. Which is great. [00:08:43] And if I'm using the lead object, I can also have lead object. Um, Items objects created. Through workflows as well. Uh, when leads are identified as meeting that criteria, basically. [00:08:57] So phone [00:09:00] number's super-valuable. We are stitching across multiple providers. My goal is to have multiple at-bats or multiple opportunities to try to get in touch the person. So multiple numbers is okay. [00:09:09] A future version, future state of this. ### Future Enhancements and Conclusion [00:09:12] Would involve creating properties in HubSpot and actually identifying which providers agreed that this was the right number. And then having a feedback loop where we can, we can track accuracy of those providers over time, and then ourselves change the order of these providers inside of clay, based on the ones that we find to be more accurate. [00:09:33] And if a new provider's introduced, we can change this clay table to put them into the stack and we could remove inaccurate ones. [00:09:40] So I would say this is a really good version one for what I need for my requirements. This is totally getting the job done right now. [00:09:47] For larger organizations with more data, higher standards of data accuracy and things like that. There is a version of this that you can grow into where you've got that monitoring and tracking of accuracy [00:10:00] by vendor. And, and then over time dynamically adjusting where you're getting that data from. [00:10:07] I think it's going to be super useful for folks who are looking to phones, thinking about phones, especially inbound to you. Don't just have to be doing scaled cold up on campaigns. Getting in touch with your inbound leads via phone via social is really valuable if just because they fill out a form doesn't mean they necessarily want to hear back via email. So I'm really excited to have this out. [00:10:26] I'm would love for folks to poke holes in this and find other ways of doing this again. I'm optimizing for having as many opportunities to connect with them as possible. So I'm willing to spend more on credits. I'm willing to dial numbers twice if necessary. I'm willing to come back and change the providers to, um, You know, maximize my odds of success. So let me know what you think and really appreciate you watching. And I'll see you in the next one.

Enriching HubSpot with Clay (Part 1: social profiles)

Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:00:00 GMT

Welcome to a five-part series on how to enrich HubSpot's CRM with Clay. In this series, I'll cover what Clay and HubSpot are, why you might want to enrich HubSpot with Clay, potential outbound workflows, and the role of Salesforce. We will start with basic workflows and automation, and by the end, we'll build a Clay table that actively monitors job changes for contacts in our CRM. This first video provides an overview of HubSpot and its integration with Clay, demonstrating how to build an active list of contacts and enhance it with social profile information. I'll walk you through creating a custom contact property in HubSpot, setting up an active list, and using Clay's HubSpot integration for enrichment across several data providers. Throughout the series, I'll also discuss different use cases, data types, and additional tools like ChatGPT for further enrichment. Stay tuned for upcoming videos and feel free to share any questions or topics you'd like me to cover! ## Transcript ### Introduction to the Series [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: Hello, and welcome to a five part series on how to enrich HubSpot's CRM with Clay. Now, what I want to walk through is really quickly, what's Clay? What's HubSpot? Why would you enrich HubSpot with Clay? And what are some potential outbound workflows? And I'm also going to talk about Salesforce, how that would potentially play in here and use cases for this beyond outbound. [00:00:23] Harris Kenny: Uh, but the idea in this series is that we're going to start small, simple with some basic workflows and automation. And then by the time we get to the end of the series, we're going to be building a table in clay that's actively monitoring for job changes for anyone that is in our CRM that might be changing jobs, for example. [00:00:40] Harris Kenny: And that's a super useful thing to know because if you've got a champion or, um, maybe even a anti champion, a blocker who leaves a company, you know, you might want to trigger some action for your sales and marketing or even customer success efforts based on that. ### Overview of HubSpot and Salesforce [00:00:54] Harris Kenny: So let's jump right in and introduce HubSpot. [00:00:57] Harris Kenny: So HubSpot is a CRM with end to end, um, customer lifecycle tools from sales, marketing, and service. And frankly, beyond that, the platform keeps growing. [00:01:06] Harris Kenny: I'm not going to show Salesforce in this video, but I'll just mention that OutboundSync does support and has users on Salesforce right now. If you're pushing contacts through outbound sync into HubSpot and you're using HubSpot's Salesforce data sync. [00:01:22] Harris Kenny: It will be compatible. We've got users doing that right now. And that's something where we're actually spending a lot of engineering resources working on improving that for Salesforce users of our product. But these videos are just going to be focused on HubSpot. ### Introduction to Clay [00:01:34] Harris Kenny: And the other major tool that we're going to talk about is Clay. [00:01:37] Harris Kenny: Now, Clay is a, in short, a spreadsheet with API calls, a great UI, relationships with data vendors, and some other neat stuff under the hood that we're especially going to be using later on, um, in some of the later videos in this series. Uh, but the first one is I want to just introduce you to the list piece of HubSpot. [00:01:58] Harris Kenny: We're going to build an active list. Of contacts. ### Creating a Custom social Profile Property in HubSpot [00:02:02] Harris Kenny: And the piece that we're missing out of the box with HubSpot is that social profile is not a default property. To do this, you're going to want to go to the gear menu up here in HubSpot. Click that, go to the contact object and create a custom contact property. [00:02:15] Harris Kenny: For social profile. And if you don't know how to do that, if you can't figure that out, you know, it's only going to get harder. So I'd encourage you to use ChatGPT or use Google, but I'm not going to walk through some of those things here, um, through these videos because you know, it's just kind of table stakes for what we're getting started. ### Building an Active List in HubSpot [00:02:29] Harris Kenny: So we're going to go ahead and we're going to start our list. We're going to create an active list in particular and a contact-based list. And we're going to look for ones where our newly created social profile property is unknown. [00:02:40] Harris Kenny: Now, I just want to note that you may not want social profiles for every single contact in your CRM, you could filter based on life cycle stage. So only, you know, marketing qualified leads, sales qualified leads opportunities, or maybe you want to trigger it based on outbound activity where you want to go omni channel when an outbound email is sent and that's recorded through outbound sync and triggered by a timeline event. [00:03:03] Harris Kenny: Then you want to go fetch that social in order to maybe create a new lead and HubSpot with the lead object, and then go on a channel and do some social outreach based on that. Or maybe you want to use the social profile to get phone numbers, which we're going to cover in a later video. [00:03:20] Harris Kenny: So in short, this is what we're doing in HubSpot. We're getting this list built. It's an active list as new contacts meet our criteria, whether they're outbound campaigns or just any contact life cycle stage, we're going to They're going to get added to this list. ### Syncing HubSpot Lists with Clay Tables [00:03:34] Harris Kenny: Now we go over to clay. I've got a set of corresponding tables inside of clay with names that match the names for the lists inside of HubSpot. [00:03:43] Harris Kenny: And of course the HubSpot lists and the clay tables correspond to each other. And the way that each of these tables was started is I created a new table using clay's HubSpot integration, and I used that HubSpot list as the source of clay table. [00:04:01] Harris Kenny: Now I'm blocking this because it's got personal, uh, information in it. So, so that's obscured from the screen. So you can't see it, but on the left hand side of the screen, you can see that import contacts from HubSpot and it initially had 143 rows. Now, if you look back at our other list, there were only 34 rows in the HubSpot list right now that don't have social profiles, which means that we were able to find social profiles for nearly every single one of these, right? [00:04:26] Harris Kenny: Um, 110, 109. So that's pretty exciting. [00:04:32] Harris Kenny: I want to walk through how this table works. As new contacts get added to that list in HubSpot, they're going to get added to this list in Clay. I also have an auto de dupe running here on the ID column. So in case a contact. Meets our social enrichment criteria, and then no longer meets it for some reason, and then meets it again in the future. [00:04:54] Harris Kenny: I don't want to be rerunning these enrichments over and over again. If we can't find it across these five providers, I'm just going to assume we're not going to be able to find it right now, and maybe we'll use another tool or frankly, with what we're doing, they just might not be a fit. They don't have social profile. [00:05:09] Harris Kenny: They're probably not a fit for our product. ### Waterfall Enrichment Process in Clay [00:05:12] Harris Kenny: So we're using a waterfall enrichment in clay across a number of providers. People Data Labs, Clearbit, you know, we've got a few here. I've got Apollo because we've got an Apollo API key that we use when we find a match. Then we're using Clay's HubSpot enrichment to go update that contact in HubSpot. [00:05:29] Harris Kenny: Again, I can't click and look and show you what these specific enrichments look like because of, you know, whether it's API keys or, um, you know, identifying information, but. This is the gist of how it works. If you're interested in a specific copy of a table like this, let me know. And maybe I can put something like that together. [00:05:46] Harris Kenny: Um, and so now when you go back to HubSpot, you're going to see that that active list is getting shorter because now there's profiles that have social attached to them. And so they're going to get removed from the list. And then they're going to be available in the contact record in HubSpot. ### Conclusion and Future Videos [00:06:00] Harris Kenny: And with that social profile in future videos, what I'm going to show you is how to get a phone numbers, clean up data around names and titles, uh, and then ultimately creating that contact, uh, job change tracking table. [00:06:14] Harris Kenny: So hopefully all of this was a good foundational start to the series. Um, we're going to be doing more. We'll be talking more about different, um, use cases for this and types of data. And in future videos, we're going to be using chat GPT. And we're also going to be doing, uh, more unconventional waterfall methods across different providers. [00:06:31] Harris Kenny: Um, particularly when it comes to phone numbers. So keep an eye out for those videos over the next few days. And, uh, let me know what questions you have, what you'd like me to cover, because I'm going to be recording these each day. And as new feedback comes in, I will be, um, trying to incorporate that as we go. [00:06:46] Harris Kenny: All right. That's all for now. Thanks so much and have a great day. ## Frequently Asked Questions ### What is Clay and how does it connect to HubSpot? Clay is a data enrichment platform that runs API calls across multiple data providers in a spreadsheet-like interface. It connects to HubSpot via a native integration that pulls contacts from HubSpot active lists, enriches them across providers like People Data Labs, Clearbit, and Apollo, then writes the results back to HubSpot contact records automatically. ### How do you enrich HubSpot contacts with Clay? Create a HubSpot active list of contacts missing the target data, connect the list to a Clay table via Clay's HubSpot integration, configure waterfall enrichment across data providers, then use Clay's HubSpot update step to write enriched values back. New contacts added to the HubSpot list are automatically pulled into Clay for enrichment. ### What is waterfall enrichment in Clay? Waterfall enrichment means Clay tries multiple data providers in sequence—if the first provider doesn't find a match, it automatically tries the next. This maximizes match rates while controlling credit costs. For social profiles, running a waterfall across providers like People Data Labs, Clearbit, and Apollo typically yields matches for the majority of contacts. ### Do I need OutboundSync to use Clay with HubSpot? No. Clay has its own native HubSpot integration for contact enrichment. OutboundSync serves a different purpose: it syncs outbound campaign activity—emails sent, replies, opens, bounces—from sequencers like Smartlead, Instantly, or EmailBison into HubSpot. The two tools complement each other: Clay enriches contact data, OutboundSync captures campaign engagement. ### Can enriched Clay data trigger outbound sequences in HubSpot? Yes. Once Clay writes enriched data back to HubSpot contact properties, those properties become available as HubSpot workflow triggers. For example, after Clay populates a LinkedIn URL, a HubSpot workflow can enroll the contact in a sequence, create a task, or change lifecycle stage—combining enrichment with automated outbound activation.

Enriching HubSpot with Clay (Part 2: Names and job titles)

Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:00:00 GMT

Welcome to part two in our five-part series on enriching HubSpot with Clay, focusing on outbound activities. We start by revisiting our methodology from the first video, where we used social profiles to identify CRM gaps. In this video, we delve deeper into building lists in HubSpot and stitching data across multiple providers including Clay's data, Apollo, and testing LeadMagic's API. We ensure accurate updates to HubSpot records using IDs. We've also introduced a GPT prompt to clean job titles, adding robustness to our data enrichment process. In the next video, we'll cover obtaining and validating phone numbers for effective outreach. ## Transcript ### Introduction to Series and Recap of Part One [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: Welcome to part two in our five part series on how to enrich HubSpot with Clay, with a special emphasis on enabling outbound activities. But of course, I think you'll find that the things that you can learn in these videos can be applied to inbound. [00:00:13] Harris Kenny: I want to start with refreshing your memory about what we did in the last video. And if you haven't seen it yet, I would encourage you to go back and watch it. In the first video, we established our methodology for how we're using lists in HubSpot and then list sources in Clay to identify gaps in our CRM. [00:00:32] Harris Kenny: The specific data that we found last time was social profiles. And then we identified ones that were missing, found them, populated them. And moving forward, we're going to use those social profiles for the rest of the videos in this series. So if you haven't done it yet, I really encourage you to watch that video or make sure that you have a social profile property in HubSpot and that data in HubSpot so that you can use the rest of these. ### Building and Managing Lists in HubSpot [00:00:57] Harris Kenny: We've got our lists here on the left in HubSpot, and I'm just going to jump into how we built them here. You can see we've got either first name or last name is unknown. And in both cases, we've got social profile is known. And the next one we've got job title is unknown, but social profile is known. [00:01:16] Harris Kenny: Now, the way that I'm doing this, there's going to be potentially some overlap because there's going to be examples of records where they have no name and no social job title. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with paying a little bit extra here in order to have more control and granular control over how we're doing the enrichments for each of these properties. So that's a deliberate choice. [00:01:37] Harris Kenny: You can also see that some of these are never going to enrich. For example, text@example.com, that will never have a contact name because it's not a real account. There's no real person there. It's never going to resolve. I think a potential enhancement you could do to this would be to add a property in HubSpot to indicate that something is omitted from enrichment or it's, it's not to be enriched. [00:01:59] Harris Kenny: And if you want to use the size of these contact lists to indicate the health of your data where, you know, you want them to be zero, uh, then I think that would be something that you might want to consider. ### Exploring Clay Tables and Data Providers [00:02:10] Harris Kenny: Let's jump into the Clay tables because they are, I'm going to show you a few things that I didn't show in the first video, but with greater detail, I think that will be useful moving forward, including a GPT prompt and how we use the IDs from HubSpot to make sure that we're updating the right records. [00:02:24] Harris Kenny: Looking at Clay, we've got our table. Once again, HubSpot is the source for this list. And in this case, we're stitching across three different providers. Now, one of them is Clay's own data. One of them is Apollo where we've got an API key. And then a third is a new vendor, uh, called LeadMagic. And we're testing LeadMagic's API here. [00:02:44] Harris Kenny: Now there are interesting situations where you're going to want to try different vendors, different providers, because you can find unique data points from them and they may not be supported in Clay. In a later video, I'm going to talk about how LeadMagic actually has a new API endpoint, and we're going to introduce that new LeadMagic API endpoint into a waterfall. [00:03:03] Harris Kenny: I'm not going to talk about that right now. I just want to show that the benefit here is configurability and how you can change over time the way that you're doing this enrichment. You can reward more accurate, or less expensive vendors, or both. You have control basically over what you're paying for and when and why. [00:03:17] Harris Kenny: There may be special requirements you have for your industry. And that's where this approach can be really helpful. Beyond knowing what's going into your system, you can have a lot of control over how it works. [00:03:26] Harris Kenny: Now on the left side, we've got that HubSpot source. We've got that ID. ### Merging Data and Enriching HubSpot Contacts [00:03:30] Harris Kenny: That ID is critical to make sure that we're updating the right contact in HubSpot, once we get to the end of our table here on, on the right side of the Clay table. [00:03:38] Harris Kenny: I've got a merge column that's pulling across multiple different providers. And if it, if the first one finds it, we're going to use that first name. If the second one finds it, we're gonna use that one. Third one down the line. And then we're going to take those name properties and push them over to HubSpot. [00:03:53] Harris Kenny: This is what that merge looks like. This is what it looks like where it's pulling across multiple different providers and then combining it into a single cell here. You can see the last names. In this column. And lastly here, what I've shown you is what the actual HubSpot enrichment looks like. Now this is an example, but here I really strongly recommend using that HubSpot contact ID instead of the contact email address. [00:04:16] Harris Kenny: This will ensure that you're getting the right contact updated. And in this case, We're going to be updating their first and last name. [00:04:23] Harris Kenny: Now the use case here beyond just having nice clean data is if you're going to be incorporating omni channel outreach, cold calling and things like that, it can be very useful to have the contact name of the person you're calling. [00:04:34] Harris Kenny: And, you know, depending on where your sourcing leads from, you may not have it in the first place. This is going to be, I think, a really valuable sales enablement piece of data that, um, teams especially doing phones are going to want. But you can also use it for variable personalization. You may be getting inbound leads through email signups, through lead magnets on your website where you're not getting this type of data. [00:04:53] Harris Kenny: So there's other situations where it's useful. I think from a revenue perspective, cold calling is probably the most valuable, um, situation where you want to make sure you have at least contact first names. [00:05:04] Harris Kenny: Okay. ### Importance of Job Titles in Outbound Campaigns [00:05:04] Harris Kenny: Now let's talk about job title. The use case here I think is interesting because it's really going to be valuable for future prospecting efforts as well as inbound and understanding your funnel and things like that. [00:05:14] Harris Kenny: But again, with our outbound focus, you can take this list of job titles and you can give it to your outbound agency, you can give it to your own biz dev team or growth team and you can have them have a much better understanding of who they're reaching out to. [00:05:26] Harris Kenny: This is where going back to that HubSpot step where we built those filters in the first place. [00:05:31] Harris Kenny: Really matters because you can set filter requirements for the life cycle stage or associated deals or associated with closed won deals or associated with deals of a lifetime value of over $10,000 or something like that. And you can look at segmentation and get a sense of who these contacts are in your system based on their job title. [00:05:50] Harris Kenny: But if you do not have that job title data, you can't do that type of segmentation, reporting, and you lose a feedback loop to inform your outbound campaigns. [00:05:59] Harris Kenny: Most campaigns that fail, fail from the start because the list is the strategy. Often repeated. I think it's absolutely true. So I'll repeat it here too. The list is the strategy and you can use job titles to build better lists. But how do we do it? [00:06:16] Harris Kenny: Once again, we're stitching across multiple providers. We're using LeadMagic. We're using Apollo. We're using Clay's data. In both cases, I found that these providers were pretty good fit for what we were trying to do here. [00:06:26] Harris Kenny: We're still getting unstructured data back. We're getting some goofy situations here where we've got, for example, things in parentheses and extra names and more descriptive names and things like that. ### Using GPT for Job Title Enrichment [00:06:37] Harris Kenny: So we're going to be using a Clay prompt and I'm going to just slowly scroll through this so you can see the whole thing. [00:06:41] Harris Kenny: You can pause the video. Check it out. We've got a generate text enrichment in Clay. We've got a couple of examples that we provided. We are requiring that a raw title be present in order to run this column, which is going to help save credits, because you don't want to run it unless you've got something to feed into it. [00:06:59] Harris Kenny: And then this is what we're reading into chat GPT. First we've got our system prompt, which is providing context for the task overall, explaining what the GPT's responsibility is. [00:07:10] Harris Kenny: And then in the second one, we've got the specific task, but we're explaining what to do, reminding it, what to do in cases where it's not sure and giving some context about how extraneous information may be included. [00:07:22] Harris Kenny: And finally, we're providing it with the raw job title that we got from the providers earlier. [00:07:27] Harris Kenny: What you can see here in this column where it says title ready, that's the output. And we're requiring, before updating HubSpot, that the title is not unknown. So this is a really useful way to make sure that you run this enrichment, clean up your data, but not introduce new data problems. ### Conclusion and Preview of Next Video [00:07:43] Harris Kenny: I hope you found this helpful, trying to drill down into a little more detail here. Talk about some potential use cases. In the next video, we're going to talk about phone numbers. How to get phone numbers, how to stitch across multiple providers, and how to account for the fact that some providers are much more accurate than others. [00:07:59] Harris Kenny: And what do you do when you only have maybe one good one, but a second number that might be good and you want to give your team options to stay on the phone and try to get in touch with this contact. [00:08:09] Harris Kenny: This is something I've built out myself for our own prospecting and even inbound engagement efforts that I've found to be extremely useful. [00:08:17] Harris Kenny: That's going to be in the next video. We're then going to talk about updating our waterfall once we discover new providers, and then finally, we're going to end with tracking job changes from your CRM using Clay.

New feature: Company blocklists in HubSpot

Mon, 01 Jul 2024 00:00:00 GMT

We are thrilled to announce a new feature in OutboundSync called company block lists, which now supports company lists in HubSpot! Previously, you could only create contact-based block lists. Now you can block whole lists of companies, such as competitors, vendors, or suppliers. This is particularly useful for situations where you don't want to email certain companies cold, but lack individual contact context. In this video, we share an example using Ocean in Clay to build a list and then import it to HubSpot. Then we use OutboundSync to turn that list into a blocklist in Smartlead. This update helps ensure you're emailing the right people and avoids reaching out to the wrong ones. See how it works below. ## Transcript ### Introduction to Company Block Lists [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: I am super excited to announce a new feature in OutboundSync called company block lists. Now, before you could only do contact based block lists. Now we support company lists in HubSpot. And I'm just going to share a few examples of when you might want to do that. Competitors, vendors, or suppliers, all sorts of situations where you have companies that you don't want to email cold, but. [00:00:24] Harris Kenny: You don't necessarily have context for them. That's what we're solving for. And, you know, also there's situations where with association labels and things like that, company lists might just be easier to build. So here we go. ### Building a Competitor List [00:00:36] Harris Kenny: I built a competitor list in clay using ocean. And this is the kind of thing that if you're working with an agency, I just highly recommend having them do this for you because there's a lot of nuance when you're working with this kind of data. [00:00:47] Harris Kenny: Um, incorrect URLs, incorrect company names, the things that can be cleaned up in clay, um, but they take time. And if you've not done this before, you know, it's probably not worth it if you have an expert. that you can just give them a call and have them set it up for you. But you build a comprehensive competitor list. [00:01:04] Harris Kenny: And in this case we did competitors with a score of 0. 85 or higher. And we used smart lead as our example. Um, of course, up on sync being a smart lead integration. And so, yeah, we picked, we ended up with, uh, you know, close to 300 companies. And we did a little bit of magic here, normalizing the domains and then searching for alternative domains. [00:01:26] Harris Kenny: Because of some discrepancies I noticed in the data. ### Implementing the Competitor List in HubSpot [00:01:28] Harris Kenny: And so we pushed all of that over into HubSpot, creating companies, and then updating the company type to be. Looking over at HubSpot, we've got our active list of companies where the type is competitor. And this is an active list. So as new companies are flagged as competitors, This list will be updated. [00:01:48] Harris Kenny: And as this list is updated without bouncing connected, those domains will be blocked in smartly. ### Blocking Competitors with Smart Lead [00:01:54] Harris Kenny: So I've got an example here of what it looks like. So we selected that company list. We selected our smartly API key. And then if you're working with an agency, or if you have multiple clients, you would select that client and start blocking. [00:02:08] Harris Kenny: And this is what it looks like. All of these domains that we determined to be competitors. Push through the API into smart lead. And now we're not going to email them anymore. So you can build lists and not have to worry necessarily as much about catching competitors. ### Advanced Tips and Conclusion [00:02:23] Harris Kenny: And remember that those lists that you send over that block list can be really big. [00:02:27] Harris Kenny: I just picked 0. 85 or higher, um, for, you know, for the sake of the video, basically, but you know, you can have as many competitors blocked as you want. And you could also use GPT to refine and segment that competitor list and make sure it's exactly right. Um, so yeah, I'm really excited about this new feature. [00:02:44] Harris Kenny: Thank you. Block lists in general are something that we've invested a lot of engineering hours into. Um, it's, it's harder than it appears. Uh, and we spent a lot of time making sure that we could get that really quick throughput, get all these domains and email addresses when, you know, when it's a contact list pushed over to smartly. [00:02:59] Harris Kenny: Um, so you're emailing the right people and, uh, not emailing the wrong people, but you don't want to email. So yeah, I was super excited about this feature. Uh, more to come. We've got some pretty exciting stuff happening in other areas. Um, but this is a big one that we've been working on for a little bit. [00:03:11] Harris Kenny: And I think you're going to find it really useful. At least I hope you do. And, uh, yeah, let me know what questions you have.

New feature: Category-based filtering from Smartlead into HubSpot

Sat, 22 Jun 2024 00:00:00 GMT

What if you could get ONLY your interested replies from Smartlead into HubSpot? Now you can. Announcing Category-Based Filtering by OutboundSync. First, OutboundSync captures campaign data from Smartlead. This includes sent email, replies, opens, clicks, etc. Then, we wait for a Lead Category to be applied to those leads. It could happen right away, or it could happen later when your team flags it. Finally, OutboundSync will sync not only the lead category update, but discrete events for each prior activity. The sent emails, the replies, the opens, etc. Watch the video to see how it works. ## Transcript ### Introduction to Category Based Filtering [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: I am super excited to be making this video announcing the release of category based filtering. Now category based filtering is a new feature in OutboundSync. Reminder that OutboundSync sits between sales engagement platforms like smart lead and CRM software like HubSpot. So because we're sitting in the middle and we're handling data flow between the two applications, it is, it is a two way sync. [00:00:27] Harris Kenny: There are certain situations where you only want certain data selectively or conditionally to sync over from smart lead to HubSpot. For example, you only want interested leads. Or positive replies to go from smart lead into HubSpot with category based filtering. This is possible. ### How Category Based Filtering Works [00:00:45] Harris Kenny: What we do is we're monitoring and logging all of the replies, all the sent emails, all the opens, all that activity, and we're holding onto it basically until a lead category update comes through from smart lead, indicating that the lead is a positive one and interested one. [00:01:00] Harris Kenny: Once that happens, we release the queued previous activities. All into HubSpot. So you can see a total history of the record, not just what's included in that category update from smartlead, but every previous activity, all log natively into HubSpot. So this is what it looks like inside of the application. [00:01:20] Harris Kenny: You can configure it. ### Configuring Custom Lead Categories [00:01:22] Harris Kenny: I just want to note that you can also select custom lead category IDs. So if you're doing that in smartly, then you've got your own custom prompting that you're doing to categorize the leads that is supported in OutboundSync as well. We're getting that API. Key from your smart lead account and we're syncing that data over. [00:01:37] Harris Kenny: So I'm going to hit pause really quick I'm gonna go fetch the reply and I'll be back. All right, let's continue. ### Live Demonstration [00:01:44] Harris Kenny: So I've got the email that's sent from smart lead This is from me to me Intro CRM was the agency that originally built OutboundSync and OutboundSync is now its own company fully dedicated Software company. [00:01:58] Harris Kenny: We joined TinySeed. We're growing a lot of exciting things happening, but I've still got some of the old agency stuff. So I'm going to use that for this test. So here's my, in this case, I'm the, this is the, this is the inbox from the prospect, right? The reply, um, turn off logging here. Uh, [00:02:20] Harris Kenny: I'm not sure if this is a fit for us right now. [00:02:30] Harris Kenny: Put it, send here. And then what we're gonna do from here is we're gonna go back to the Smart Lead inbox. We're gonna check on HubSpot. You're gonna see that that reply is not logged back to Smart Lead. We're gonna categorize it as interested actually, and then we're gonna see everything flow through. [00:02:47] Harris Kenny: Alright, I'm gonna hit pause. I'll be back. Alright, we're back. ### Syncing and Logging Activities [00:02:51] Harris Kenny: Now here we're in HubSpot. Uh, I'm gonna show you that that reply did come through, but you can see that nothing has synced yet. Um, nothing is in here. Okay. Um, now we can go in the master inbox and you can see that a reply. Was received. The email was open twice, and then you can see the reply here. [00:03:10] Harris Kenny: But it's not in HubSpot. And what I'm showing you here is the view of contacts that have been assigned to me. And so this, this contact will be rotated over to this account, um, once a payload is received. So this is a way of only assigning a reply, also, once it's marked as interested. Alright, so I actually never I'm testing this fully live right now, so let's just see what happens. [00:03:36] Harris Kenny: I'm gonna mark this lead as interested. [00:03:44] Harris Kenny: Okay, so I see that here. [00:03:49] Harris Kenny: This campaign is done. Let me just show you this copy really quick. So this is the actual smartly campaign. Really simple. Okay. And, uh, all right, I'm going to pause this. Just make sure I don't show anything I'm not supposed to hear. And then I'll be right back. It totally worked. All right, here we go. We've got our contact. [00:04:11] Harris Kenny: I'm playing around in our dev portal right now. So I just didn't want to, I've got, it's got some different email addresses and stuff in it, which is why I just want to share things, but it totally worked. Um, all right, so here we go. You can see this is created at 11 Oh one. I was just clicking some things for the last two minutes. [00:04:25] Harris Kenny: Um, this is our test account. Um, this contact didn't exist in HubSpot before. Um, you can see that it was created at 11:01. Um, the lifecycle was changed to lead. You've got the email, um, that was sent, that was logged and sent. Um, you've got the lead category update that was applied. Um, we've got the sent email here. [00:04:52] Harris Kenny: We've got the reply event and the open event. All dropped in sequence here. Here's the full reply logged as an email. This is an email activity in HubSpot. In addition to these timeline events that we've synced here. And then I rotated the contact owner, the company owner, and the task. So if you jump over to the company. [00:05:11] Harris Kenny: Um, you can see these activities are all synced up at the company level as well. Uh, so pretty awesome, pretty excited about it. Uh, this is gonna be great. ### Use Cases and Benefits [00:05:24] Harris Kenny: So the use case for this is going to be, you know, if you're an agency and you're running campaigns for your clients and you only, they only want to get the interested replies, or if you're running like a very tight compliance situation where you only want like very specific circumstances where leads are pushed into HubSpot, Great fit for that too. [00:05:42] Harris Kenny: Um, and like I mentioned, you know, lead category, custom lead categories are supported as well. And so, you know, there would be different circumstances where you would want different types of replies to be, to be synced and pushed over. Maybe you don't want to get all the out of offices and things like that. [00:05:58] Harris Kenny: Um, so really, really excited about this new feature. Um, it is live now in OutboundSync. So, uh, users will be using it today and then we'll be obviously You know, running demos showing how it works for new folks, but I'm really, really excited. ### Partner Program and Conclusion [00:06:12] Harris Kenny: And the last thing I'm just going to mention here is that something that's been really picking up is our partner program. [00:06:17] Harris Kenny: So we're actually working with quite a few leading agencies helping deploy this for their clients. Um, so if this is something that all sounds interesting, but you're not sure how you even begin to set this up, get in touch because I can refer you to some agencies, folks who frankly I've known for years as peers. [00:06:32] Harris Kenny: Back when we were, when I was running intro CRM as an outbound agency, um, and they're doing incredible work at scale, sending really, really sophisticated outbound campaigns with segmented lists and great copy and using GPT. Uh, and so, you know, if there's a chance for us to connect you with an agency that can run these campaigns for you so you can get this type of result inside of your HubSpot portal, um, you know, let me know because there's a lot going on behind the scenes here to make everything work. [00:06:56] Harris Kenny: Um, but I'm really excited about it and I appreciate you taking seven minutes to watch with me. Thanks.

Using unsubscribe links in Smartlead and syncing with HubSpot

Fri, 21 Jun 2024 00:00:00 GMT

If you want to know how to use unsubscribe links in Smartlead to remove prospects from campaigns—and sync the data with HubSpot using OutboundSync—then you're in the right place! This comprehensive guided tutorial details the setup process, including attaching webhooks, configuring campaign settings, and handling unsubscribe events. Harris emphasizes the importance of custom tracking domains and demonstrate the synchronization of unsubscribe statuses between Smartlead and HubSpot. Additionally, Harris explores how to update Smartlead block lists using HubSpot lists with OutboundSync, ensuring that contacts are not re-engaged in future campaigns. ## Transcript ### Introduction to Unsubscribe Links in Smartlead [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: I want to take a few minutes to walk you through how unsubscribed links work in Smartlead, how you can use them to remove prospects from your campaigns, and then how you can use OutboundSync to not only add them to a list and opt them out of a subscription type in HubSpot, but also sync that block back if you want to, to Smartlead to the block list to make sure that they don't get contacted again. [00:00:27] Harris Kenny: Now, I want to make a distinction that this is not the only way to do this. You can use lead categorization and smart lead, and you can use those reply based opt outs where you'd include in a signature like PS. If you're not interested in hearing from me anymore, let me know. Tell me, no, thanks. Something like that. [00:00:45] Harris Kenny: And you could use categorization and you could actually do a similar process that we're going to show today with OutboundSync with the HubSpot synchronization between the two platforms. Um, but for now, this video, I'm going to focus specifically on the links, how to use them, what they look like when they're clicked and, um, and then how to pass the data back and forth. ### Setting Up Webhooks and Campaigns [00:01:03] Harris Kenny: So first, we've got an example because we're using OutboundSync. We want to have our webhook attached to a client. In this case, this could also be a user webhook and we want to include the lead unsubscribed webhook event. We've got our campaign built and in the campaign settings, I just want to flag. [00:01:21] Harris Kenny: There's a couple of things here. So we want to make sure that we are tracking link clicks and that we are sending in HTML. In other words, that these two boxes are not checked. Because those are necessary for how the unsubscribe link works in SmartLead. And I'm going to show you that link in a second. ### Configuring Unsubscribe Links in Emails [00:01:37] Harris Kenny: First, I just want to show you where you can add the unsubscribe message. And then below this is an unsubscribe header tag. But whatever you put here is going to be the text that SmartLead puts for its opt out unsubscribe inside of the email that you're sending. Now I'm going to take a step back and just show you the sequence. [00:01:53] Harris Kenny: This is what it looks like in the sequence editor. If you have that unsubscribe setting turned on with the text, it will automatically put it at the bottom of your email. Unless you choose to put that unsubscribed text earlier. In the email, which you can do. It doesn't have to be at the bottom. You could put it in the middle of a paragraph or something like that. [00:02:14] Harris Kenny: When you go to review your email, unless it's sent, it won't be shown here. And if you send a test, it won't be shown until or after the email sends. Then the rendering shows what actually went out of smart lead. ### Tracking and Testing Unsubscribe Links [00:02:27] Harris Kenny: And so in this case, you can see the link. Now I'm hovering over this and just in the bottom of my browser, and I'm going to show you what it looks like in a second. [00:02:33] Harris Kenny: On the email client side in Gmail, it's previewing using the custom tracking domain that we have attached to this account. And so that's definitely a best practice. If you're going to be doing the unsubscribes through link clicks from smart lead, it's definitely best practice to have your tracking domain turned on a custom tracking domain set up. [00:02:52] Harris Kenny: Now our campaign has gone live. We've included the unsubscribe link in the email. You can see this email here at the bottom. And then when that email is clicked, this is what it looks like. It's loading the tracking link here unsubscribe. And then this is a unique identifier. That's going to. Fingerprint back to the initial lead that you sent to in the first place. [00:03:15] Harris Kenny: So this is what the lead sees. They are not going to go to like a subscription preferences page where they can uncheck multiple types of subscriptions and things like that. They will only be shown this simple page. And then from here, this is going to generate a webhook event. That's going to roll over to HubSpot. ### Managing Unsubscribes in HubSpot [00:03:30] Harris Kenny: So let's talk about what that looks like. Now in HubSpot, we have set up a workflow that's listening for. That lead unsubscribe event. And so this is a timeline event and we're using this integration filter in OutboundSync to trigger when that lead lead unsubscribe event occurs when it's known. And when it is known, what we're doing here is we are actually adding this contact to a subscription type. [00:04:00] Harris Kenny: Now this isn't the only way to do it, but I think this is a pretty nice way to manage your opt outs inside of HubSpot in a really clean, straightforward way using subscription types. And then we're going to use that subscription type to update a list. And that list is going to be how we make the block list happen. [00:04:17] Harris Kenny: So we've got a list built here, just called unsubscribes. And in this case, we're using that email subscription opted out of one to one. This could also be cold outreach, outbound campaigns, et cetera. There's another way of doing this because OutboundSync will also write to a contact property called last unsubscribe time. [00:04:32] Harris Kenny: So if that were known, you could also build a list in that way. Either way, it's going to show up here. This is our contact. This is the one that clicked. The unsubscribed link earlier in our email, and I'm going to show you the actual contact record really quick. So you can see the exact history here. You can see that on that webhook event that occurred. [00:04:52] Harris Kenny: You can see all this workflow activity being synced here, the subscription chain to list membership change. And this is how we are. We are synchronizing the unsubscribed status between the two platforms. ### Synchronizing Unsubscribes with Smartlead [00:05:05] Harris Kenny: Now to take it one step further, if we want to do that unsubscriber opt out all the way through back to smartly to the block list, we're going to use outbound syncs block list feature where we select that list in HubSpot. [00:05:18] Harris Kenny: This one that we were just looking at, we select our API key and smart lead. We select the type of blocking in this case, individual email address, a domain level block would be more for like customers, competitors, suppliers. That would be like, you never want to email anybody from that company again, for whatever reason. [00:05:34] Harris Kenny: But that's. I don't think appropriate in this case. And then if you're an agency, we have the selector for which smart lead client account you want to do. Now let's go back to smart lead and see what this looks like on the smart lead side. When a lead, and this is, you know, this has been triggered in this case, the blocking has been triggered by this opt out, right? [00:05:58] Harris Kenny: So this isn't outbound sync specific. What I'm about to show you next is, but just remember the first part of this video, everything here, this is just really kind of a one on one on how this part of smart lead works and hopefully that's helpful for you. Hopefully you get a sense of how unsubscribed links work in smartly now after watching this, whether or not you're going to this next part of the video or this final part. [00:06:18] Harris Kenny: So when you go to that lead, you can see it's been blocked because of the unsubscribed click. And then with outbound sync, we are also in this case, choosing to add it to the global block list so that we will never email this contact ever again across any campaign, as long as that client is selected. ### Conclusion and Next Steps [00:06:36] Harris Kenny: So let me know what you think. [00:06:36] Harris Kenny: I hope this is helpful. What I'd like to do is I'd like to do a follow up video showing how to do this through those. Replies of the email, you know, the prospect saying no, thanks. Opt out unsubscribe just by writing back instead of clicking something for a few reasons. But I think the main one being deliverability, and I think that's pretty standard practice these days is to give that text based opt out, but a lot of companies will do links and this is how that works.

New beta feature in HubSpot: Configurable send limit for email

Tue, 04 Jun 2024 00:00:00 GMT

In beta now! Get ready for configurable email sending limits in HubSpot. This is a huge new feature for sales teams to use email sequences—with guardrails. With this new feature, HubSpot admins can set a limit on how many emails users can send within a day. Check out the video and transcript below to learn how it works and who it's most useful for. This feature is available in beta now. HubSpot Admins, go to Product Updates in your portal to enable it and help your team with email deliverability today! ## Transcript [00:00:00] Harris Kenny: I am super excited to share this new feature with you in HubSpot called Configurable Send Limits. Now, if you've got Sales Reps in HubSpot, this is definitely going to be something that you're going to want to enable in your portal. This is a beta feature that you can access by going to the top right corner, clicking your portal name, going to product updates. [00:00:20] Harris Kenny: And then looking for configurable send limits and take part in the beta join up because I think you're definitely going to want this. This allows admins in HubSpot to control the amount of emails that users can send through HubSpot in a day. The problem it's solving for is overeager or overactive sales reps, cranking tons of emails through and hitting sending limits, getting in trouble with their email service provider and losing access to their account, potentially jeopardizing the health of their company's entire domain. [00:00:49] Harris Kenny: Um, and email deliverability. So let me separate this briefly from the scaled cold outbound that we see folks doing through out, uh, smartly and then pulling that data into HubSpot through outbound sync. This is a different thing that's going to be for more cold outreach, potentially inbound led outbound or content led outbound type campaigns. [00:01:10] Harris Kenny: These sequences are meant for trade show leads, uh, direct site signups. These are the situations where you've got like a subscription type enabled for them, maybe even permission to do SMS. You want to do HubSpot's omni channel sequences. This is going to allow you to do that activity with guardrails. So it's super powerful for protecting domain health and deliverability and allowing your sales reps to be efficient. [00:01:32] Harris Kenny: So I don't see this as an either or either smart lead or using HubSpot sequences with configurable send limits. Now I see this as a yes. And when you combine these two things, your reps can be much more efficient. And I think this allows admins, marketers, rev ops teams to encourage their sales team to be more proactive after frankly, probably having a lot of conversations over the last. [00:01:53] Harris Kenny: Um, but also you're still, you still have numbers to hit, but once you hit quota, you want to get your commission. And so sales reps have been in a difficult spot. This allows them to operate, I think, with a little bit more confidence, um, and, and have more options available at their disposal. So I'm super excited about it. [00:02:13] Harris Kenny: Check it out, uh, enable it in your portal. Let me know what you think.

The life and death of DraftStudio, a cold email copywriting assistant

Thu, 30 May 2024 00:00:00 GMT

We are officially discontinuing DraftStudio, a cold email copywriting assistant. DraftStudio helped re-write emails, generate spintax, and preview spintax for approval. DraftStudio went into alpha in April 2023. We ended up with 59 users who used the product a total of 2,605 times. A little over a year later, we're shutting DraftStudio down. It was built on Glide, a low-code app builder. DraftStudio was one of several bets we'd placed in our previous life as a HubSpot and outbound sales agency. OutboundSync was the last, and most successful, SaaS product developed by Intro CRM. It was so successful that OutboundSync spun out into its own company and recently joined TinySeed, a B2B SaaS accelerator for bootstrapped companies. Like OutboundSync, DraftStudio was born out of our agency work. It was built specifically for Smartlead and supported Smartlead's spintax formatting. ## Why I built DraftStudio The primary use case was saving myself time when shipping outbound campaigns for clients. To give you an idea, you started an email with "Hey", it would generate permutations of that greeting (e.g. Hi, Hello, Hi there) that would be used in Smartlead. The idea is that using more dynamic text improves email deliverability. And the more emails that land in the primary inbox, the better. But generating spintax manually is annoying. ## Initial MVP/alpha release We used Glide to provide some helpful things like saving favorites, copying spintax to your clipboard, and making it easier to use than ChatGPT's chat interface. For the purposes of this blog post, I will categorize the MVP/alpha release as a ChatGPT wrapper product. Which means that it had a basic UI but the core function was to provide a front-end to ChatGPT prompts. Thanks to Glide, the app loaded quickly, had a secure login, and had the basic features I wanted to build. Without hiring a developer. Here's what it looked like when we brought it to market: The nice thing about Glide is that I was able to quickly build the concept and get it into the market. This was possible thanks to the team over at LowCode Agency. While the product itself wasn't a breakout hit, we were able to get it into market and learn quickly. ## Adoption and traction Initial users were acquired by organic social posts and through my participation in several WhatsApp and Slack communities in the outbound sales space. Something about it did appeal to people. It even got featured by cold email expert Jed Mahrle in his Practical Prospecting newsletter. (Thanks, Jed!) The top 20% of users accounted for 89% of product utilization. You can see an entire distribution across the entire user base below. Within this overall utilization, you can see how each major feature was used by each user below: Here's a pie chart with an aggregate look across the entire userbase: While the product had thread major features (rewrite emails, generate spintax, preview spintax), it was the spintax feature that got the most traction. Generating spintax was the one feature I'd originally wanted the most, spent the most time building, and promoted the most. The rewrite feature numbers are inflated here as we tested different ways of doing this, including generating up to four variations of a single email, essentially overweighting the utilization number in these charts. The preview feature was the weakest and something that needed a lot more work to get right. One way of doing this that I thought about was using a transactional email provider like SendGrid and sending copies of all those emails to the user to review. ## Top user feedback Overall, DraftStudio was useful! It led to booked meetings and drove revenue. I'm super grateful to everyone who took time to try the product, provide feedback, and use it for their campaigns. Top users were engaged, provided feedback, and were happy to share testimonials like the ones below.

OutboundSync selected for TinySeed Spring 2024 Batch

Wed, 01 May 2024 00:00:00 GMT

OutboundSync spun out of my old consultancy, Kenny Consulting Group, LLC DBA Intro CRM. OutboundSync is now its own thing. With this announcement, I'm all in on it. First, the news: I'm proud to share that OutboundSync has been selected to participate in TinySeed's Spring 2024 batch! I've been following Rob Walling and TinySeed for many years. I've worked with several TinySeed portfolio companies as a vendor and as a customer. It is surreal to now be participating in the program as a founder. It's humbling to see that the TinySeed team agrees that we're onto something here. This will be an excellent opportunity to grow and better serve our customers. Looking at the other companies in the TinySeed Spring 2024 batch, I'm excited to learn from them too. If you're new here, and chances are that you are given today's news, allow me to briefly introduce the product and the problem we're solving for our customers. If you will indulge me, at the end I'll share some personal reflection on how we got here. ## What is OutboundSync OutboundSync is an integration between Smartlead, a sales engagement platform, and HubSpot, a CRM. We sit between the two platforms, standardizing how data is transferred between them. Here are the main reasons why our customers are using OutboundSync: - Revenue attribution: Know exactly which deals were created, or influenced, by your outbound campaign efforts. - Lead routing: Get the right leads directed to the right people. Handle replies directly in your HubSpot portal. - Timeline events: Log every email sent, reply, open, click, unsubscribe, and even category update—at the contact-level. - Contact properties: Take advantage of over 20 custom contact properties to in your lists, workflows, and notifications. - Block lists: Block email addresses or entire domains—just off of a list in HubSpot. No more CSV exports. - Account-based selling: Associate emails with both contacts and companies to track campaigns at the company-level. - Native reporting: Create your own reports and dashboards in HubSpot to monitor your outbound results. - Custom alerts: Decide when and how to alert your sales reps. Send emails, create tasks, Slack messages, and more. This is just for now, of course. We have a ton of engineering tickets in progress that we're about to start closing faster, thanks to TinySeed. ## Why us I ran a sales consultancy for the past five years. Three and a half of those included outbound services and one and a half of them included running a HubSpot agency about to hit platinum status as a solutions partner. In this unique position, it became clear where there were gaps between these major platforms. And I don't think these gaps are because of any particular vendor. Instead, because of structural gaps between the firms in this part of the market. Which is why I think there is room for a company to sit in the middle and bridge the gaps. I've developed close relationships with other outbound agencies. Learned a ton from them. And we've really worked together well since bringing OutboundSync to the market, helping them run campaigns for their customers and get the data into HubSpot. For all these reasons, we're in a good position to take a shot at solving this problem of silos between sales engagement platform (SEP) and customer relationship management (CRM) software. Starting with Smartlead and HubSpot. ## Why now There is a major disruption happening in the market for outbound sales software and services. Companies are switching to multi-domain, omnichannel, and automation-assisted (including AI) outreach on a massive scale. I believe this confluence events is creating room for something like OutboundSync. Seeing the increasingly noteworthy customers who are signing up for the product gives me a lot of confidence that others feel the same way. In the end, this company is a bet on a few things: 1. The CRM is the single source of truth that companies want to invest in. And they will therefore invest in tools that support the primacy of their CRM. 2. Sales engagement platforms will gain adoption when they're innovative, but this very innovation makes it harder for them to integrate with stable CRM platforms. 3. More sophisticated go-to-market is coming. Things will get more complex, not simpler. Tools that enable complex loops and motions will win by empowering users. I've spent the last year working on this product. And it is five years to the day since I first went out on my own, on May 1, 2019. My experience in the market over the last 12 months gives me strong conviction that we're helping people and I'm excited to see where this goes. If you want to see where we started, keep reading. But before that, if I've piqued your curiosity, go here to learn more about OutboundSync. ## A brief history of OutboundSync ### Kenny Consulting Group era OutboundSync has its roots in Kenny Consulting Group, LLC, a consultancy I started full-time on May 1, 2019. Here you can see the humble beginnings of my first office. This was in the room of our first house. It would later be converted into a nursery. Soon after starting the company, I discovered Rob Walling and the Startups for the Rest of Us podcast. Another major source of inspiration in these early days was Justin Jackon's Build Your SaaS podcast. I tried to build several SaaS products while doing sales consulting over the years. SaaS was the kind of business I wanted to grow into running. But with bills to pay, I kept working to hone my craft and get better at sales consulting along the way. The sales consultancy evolved. It went from me outsourcing large chunks of my time as a fractional resource, to an agency model. ### SaaS attempts along the way Here are the SaaS ideas we tried along the way. And I say we because some exceptionally talented people help me build them over the years. All strategic errors around these products, positioning, and if they should have been built are on me. - Intro CRM: The first was an a simpler CRM called Intro CRM that would have productized services to help users get new leads, work their pipeline, and improve their sales process. It was built with Bubble and had integrations to Basecamp, Asana, and Trello, with the idea being that was where early stage founders were more likely to be working. The services had more demand, people just wanted help with sales. - Lead Rater: Next came Lead Rater, which was rooted in the outbound services we were providing. It was a relatively straightforward Glide app that took a process we'd been doing in spreadsheets, and moved to an app. The idea was to get feedback from customers about which leads were the best and why. It was too manual to work. But now, a similar approach can be taken to train GPT models and could actually work. - DraftStudio: Next from our agency work came DraftStudio. Another Glide app, it sought to streamline the process of creating spintax for cold email. It also included a re-write feature and a preview feature for spintax. This had the most success of the three but didn't have pull from the market. The people who use it still use it and love it. But it's essentially a ChatGPT wrapper and in-app ChatGPT renders it unnecessary. During this journey, I also experienced some major life events. From buying a new house and moving, to having our second child, and some major family medical issues. Navigating these challenges along with everything else was indescribably difficult. And I wouldn't be honest here unless I at least acknowledged this part of it. Last but not least came OutboundSync—the reason why you're here today. ### Along came OutboundSync We had a customer who wanted their Smartlead outbound campaigns synced to HubSpot. They really wanted it—and insisted. After taking a look at Smartlead's webhook and API documentation, I figured it was something I could build in Make.com. Which I started about one year ago (May 2023). The first/alpha/MVP version of OutboundSync was completed in Make.com and it really stretched me. I spent many hours and late nights/early mornings working with ChatGPT to hone the API calls, create a HubSpot app, and get everything working the way I wanted. Once we had our basic version off the ground and customers willing to pay, I posted about it on social media and shared it with agency customers. I started to do manual installs of the Make.com version of the app in customers' HubSpot portals. It was buggy but it had enough promise that people were patient and demand grew. This stage took about four months. It got to the point where we build a full web application. Porting the lowcode app over to a full web application took about two months. Which brings us to October 2023, when we had our first paying customers for OutboundSync. As traction grew, and with some encouragement from others, we decided to throw our hats in the ring for TinySeed. Things are steadily growing now. We've gotten huge support from patient customers who see what we're trying to build. The product keeps getting better. And we have so many ideas from users that we're excited to implement. ### Thank you Thanks for reading this far and for your support. If you want to see how OutboundSync works, head over to the OutboundSync integrations page for more info.